One Giant Leap Into the World of EV Ownership

[SpaceEVDriver]

One subtle difference between different power ratings is that while it’s represented as a power rating, it’s probably mostly a current limitation. Ie, if your battery voltage is low enough, a 150kw charger may not be able to deliver 150kw because it bumps up against a current limit, where a 350kw charger may be able to get closer to 150kw because of a higher current. All that is to say that it is possible that even if your car is limited to 150 you might charge faster at a 350 charger, in some corner cases. Not really worth worrying about for practical purposes, I expect.

That’s a great point.

We use kW, but it really should be kVA to be more precise.

Most of the time, it’s not really an issue.

There are some vehicles that have a voltage-limited charge rate, but if the voltage is near 400 volts, it won’t matter much. For example, a 380 V vs 400 V battery won’t see much actual difference in charge rate: 20 Volts / 400 volts = 5%. That’s 1.5 minute increase on a nominally 30-minute charge and 3 minutes on a 60-minute charge.

But it’s also less of an issue because most properly-operating 150 kW chargers aren’t charger-current-limited when charging 400 V systems.
For example, the Mustang’s average power of 88 kW means it’s pulling less than 220 Amps on a 350 Amp EA 150 kW charger. It doesn’t benefit from a 350 kW charger because it’s pulling no more amperage. There are times when a 350 kW charger might perform better: high temperatures and thermal throttling, for example.

It does cause some vehicles with 800V systems to charge more slowly than they could on the higher-amperage, higher-voltage chargers.
And, of course, the manufacturer can cause all kinds of nonsense with limiting maximum current.

This is what I was trying to convey, although really poorly I admit.

For 1-5 hour trips, the time loss is negligible. For 14+ hour trips it adds up. We do a western PA to southwest FL trip around once a year. I try to stretch stops out as long as possible and then stop to let the dogs out (usually at Loves travel plazas as they have nice dog runs). Average stop is around 20-25 minutes. Ideally not looking to make the trip really any longer than it already is. With the Equinox, if we were to take it, and using the higher current newest chargers capable of pushing 250 kW, I’m looking at adding another 1.5 hours onto the trip just due to the car’s limitations (based on ABRP trip planning). With something like a Silverado EV, I’m sure I could cut down the added time by about 1/2 as that’s a split pack design. Right now GM limits their 400 volt packs to 150 kW peak and it doesn’t hold it long at all. I know the Mach-e I had a chance to drive over a week did better for sure and appeared to peak around 170 kW and sustain 150 kW for a decent amount of time.

These of course are my thoughts and they are subjective to what I’ve experienced and my preference for usage.

I see. I’m sorry, I was struggling to understand.

I think the issue isn’t the charger. It’s the vehicle manufacturer making decisions about how to charge.

Modern EVs could easily manage 1.5C to 2C average from 0% to 85% without endangering their batteries. But on many of the lower-cost vehicles, there are electrical components that can’t handle the 350 Amps required to charge at that rate.

An 800 Volt battery only needs half the amperage of a 400 Volt battery to reach the same charging power. That’s one huge benefit of the higher-voltage batteries: they can reduce the size of the conductors throughout the DC network on the vehicles, which can reduce cost.

I have opinions about ABRP that would be best saved for a different comment or post.

 

[cyure]

This prompted me to check my avg stop time more empirically than I had before.

My avg charging time across the 14 sessions, was 24min 36 seconds, with an avg ending SOC of 88%.

Some of that higher percentages were probably due to "the safety blanket" feeling of having more charge to play with on our first road trip. But at least 2-3 of those were us still doing things like eating/peeing, and we'd already hit the 80% mark.

And for context, in a different thread, I posted some road trip history from the same trip. In our PHEV, using gas, our avg stop time was 13min 20 seconds, with 3 stops. Compared to the 24min 36 seconds, and 4 stops in the EV (on the way back).

I don't have exact stoppage stuff recorded for the other direction with the PHEV, but I think the EV was consistent with 1 more stop in that direction as well.

Anyway, more data for data nerds out there (even though I'm barely starting to get the data, unlike @SpaceEVDriver ).

I timed some of my stops in the Wrangler and those were 13 to 20 minutes. Not a noticeable difference I would say.

 

[cyure]

By the way guys, when I get my Scout I’m going to need you to all educate me all over again again and repeat a lot of this because I will encounter stuff real time and just ask you all the same questions I asked you now. Just warning you all.

 

[Logan]

I timed some of my stops in the Wrangler and those were 13 to 20 minutes. Not a noticeable difference I would say.

IMO, actually tracking how far you're driving at a time (miles/time), and how long the stops are taking you, is the first step to really understanding if a BEV will work for you.

Once you have that, you can start playing around with tools like ABRP, and figure out if you can make it work.

2-3 years ago I started timing the road trips. And looking back at my initial estimates, I thought I'd be 1-2 more stops in an EV. And... it looks like I was almost bang on. I averaged 1 more stop each direction than the PHEV. Each about 5-10 min longer.

On a 830 mile road trip, it does mean we took more time. But this was the first vehicle that we looked at where we thought "that seems close enough" given how often we do it.

Anyway, food for thought. And its cool that you're already checking these things .

By the way guys, when I get my Scout I’m going to need you to all educate me all over again again and repeat a lot of this because I will encounter stuff real time and just ask you all the same questions I asked you now. Just warning you all.

Its ok, I bill hourly. I think SpaceEVDriver is by the quarter hour though (and each 15min is my hourly rate). I think he's worth the extra $$$ though .

 

[cyure]

IMO, actually tracking how far you're driving at a time (miles/time), and how long the stops are taking you, is the first step to really understanding if a BEV will work for you.

Once you have that, you can start playing around with tools like ABRP, and figure out if you can make it work.

2-3 years ago I started timing the road trips. And looking back at my initial estimates, I thought I'd be 1-2 more stops in an EV. And... it looks like I was almost bang on. I averaged 1 more stop each direction than the PHEV. Each about 5-10 min longer.

On a 830 mile road trip, it does mean we took more time. But this was the first vehicle that we looked at where we thought "that seems close enough" given how often we do it.

Anyway, food for thought. And its cool that you're already checking these things .



Its ok, I bill hourly. I think SpaceEVDriver is by the quarter hour though (and each 15min is my hourly rate). I think he's worth the extra $$$ though .

I just appreciate everyone here so so much. I never would have even considered a BEV without you guys.

I work from home so weekly it’s just around town.

Multiple times a year we go to Peoria, about 40 miles each way, and Chicago, 110 to 135 depending on what part each way.

If we do a big trip I’m honestly fine with stopping more. We did Illinois to California and back in 2023. We did it in one week total. 4400 miles. That was too fast. I want to be able to enjoy more along the way.

 

[J Alynn]

This is a great point. I was thinking about this lately on my trip, but didn't want to do the math.

Well, I threw AI at it, and tossed the charging curve data for my Ioniq 9 (data), and had it do the math I was too lazy to do. Our Ioniq 9 holds over 150kw from 2%, up until about 71-72%. But it peaks at something like ~230-235kw.

According to the AI math, its showing that the difference in recharge times on a 150kw charger, vs a 350kw charger, is really only about 5 minutes. But the 50kw charger is really going to slow things down in comparison (an hour or so longer).

EDIT: Whoa, that got mangled. An image instead.

View attachment 16568


Are 150kw chargers usually cheaper? I haven't actually looked at them, and most of what I saw out in the wild was the 350kw chargers.

But if the 150kw chargers were materially cheaper, there are some times when I'd use those, as we might be staying longer for that stop anyway (like if we were wanting to eat). While other times we'd still be trying to save those 5min.

Sounds like an exercise worth exploring but I’m a visual person not a science person so please dumb it down when (whomever) posts the results. I want to learn but I don’t want anxiety or the feeling I’m failing because I don’t think the way smart people do. Thank you for your consideration

 

[J Alynn]

By the way guys, when I get my Scout I’m going to need you to all educate me all over again again and repeat a lot of this because I will encounter stuff real time and just ask you all the same questions I asked you now. Just warning you all.

You are the question Queen so we would expect nothing less

 

[cyure]

You are the question Queen so we would expect nothing less

You know it!

 

[apex96]

Wow, you're right; I really expected something more, maybe at the Sam's. I'd need a charge station next to the Apple Annie's. The way it's looking, WVU will be my son's college home for 5 or more years. Right now it's a race to see which is first: graduate or the Scout gets built!

It's a great college, even with the party school label. The University has really invested in their infrastructure over the past 10 years.

Apple Annie's was an excellent brunch spot, hope it's still a good spot, haven't stopped by in over 8 years.

 

[Logan]

Sounds like an exercise worth exploring but I’m a visual person not a science person so please dumb it down when (whomever) posts the results. I want to learn but I don’t want anxiety or the feeling I’m failing because I don’t think the way smart people do. Thank you for your consideration

Ack.

I’ll see what I can cook up, to visualize the difference between charging a car on a charger that is faster than the car can accept it, and one that is slower than the cars maximum speed.

I’m not, not a visual person. But I do like numbers. So I’ll see what I can do.

 

[Logan]

Ack.

I’ll see what I can cook up, to visualize the difference between charging a car on a charger that is faster than the car can accept it, and one that is slower than the cars maximum speed.

I’m not, not a visual person. But I do like numbers. So I’ll see what I can do.

Ok, so, I AI'd it, with a design I had in my mind. Took a few iterations, but I'm actually pretty happy with the result.

The vertical axis is how fast my car can charge, higher is better. My vehicle tops out around ~230kw. So if you charge it on a charger that is faster than it is capable of charging, the limitation is the vehicle itself. Thats what the blue line is. Thats effectively as fast as my vehicle can charge.

If you plug it into a charger that is slower than the maximum speed, the car is "waiting" on the charger (ie, the car could charge faster, but is limited. Its like being out on a jog, and getting stuck behind some people walking. Your mile time could be faster, but you were slowed down by something outside of your control.

In this case, the green line is limited to the maximum speed of the slower charger (the red dotted line). You can see how the "top" of the blue line is chopped off. The proportions of the chart aren't perfect, but you can see how that area that got chopped off, is basically added back in, by shifting the whole curve to the right (its got the same exact shape, just pushed farther out in time).

So charging on a charger slower than what your car can do, will increase your charging time. But in this case, its still only about 5 minutes. But you can see that the green line, ends

Hopefully that clears it up some?

And yes... the legend on the bottom got screwed up some. Its supposed to be minutes on the bottom, but it all wrote on top of each other, so I chopped it out .