@cyure, you might also post a companion question to this thread: “What would make you switch from BEV to EREV?”
My answer is, “I’d rather ride my bicycle.”
My answer is, “I’d rather ride my bicycle.”
Is there anything SM could offer to get you to switch from EREV to BEV?
- Thread starter cyure
- Start date
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I’ll tag you in. Since I’m still learning. My daily commute is about the miles round trip and weekends maybe 100-150 miles depending on what’s going on. In theory majority of the time I work from home M and Th and sometimes T or W if I need quiet time. So in theory majority if I plugged in Sunday night and Wednesday night from say 7pm until 4pm (21 hours) is it feasible that I could get by without even adding a charger? Spaced out on that schedule I am thinking I could get by without a charger. Thoughts
I’m guessing you mean three miles round trip?
Let’s expand it to 25 miles daily driving for any reason, five days a week. And you drive 75 miles on Saturday and 75 miles on Sunday.
Assume you don’t drive aggressively.
Assume the vehicle gets the top-end of the EPA range estimate for around town driving and 80% of that for the longer trips.
Assume you have a Level 1 charger (regular wall outlet charger, usually reserved for emergencies).
Scenario 1:
tldr: You’re always right at the recover-everything-over the week.
Assumptions:
- 75 miles on Saturday
- 75 miles on Sunday
- 25 miles each day of the week
- A 25 mile drive uses ~7% of your battery
- A 75 mile drive on the freeway uses ~27% of your battery
- You have a time-of-use constraint where the utility charges you extra between 16:00 and 19:00, so you have a reminder to plug in at 19:30 on weeknights.
- You unplug just before you leave in the morning.
- You precondition the cabin so it’s warm/cool when you get it, but that doesn’t use much energy.
- You have a Level 1 charger
- From 19:30 to 07:30 is 12 hours.
- 12 hours * 1.2 kW = 14.4 kWh of charge.
- For a 120 kWh battery, that’s 12% of your battery.
- The math is easy because a Level 1 charger charges about 1% per hour for a 120 kWh battery.
Start on the weekend with 100% charge (you’ll see it recover throughout the week).
- Weekend:
- Saturday
- Your battery is fully charged by 07:30 AM.
- You head out to begin your 75-mile day doing whatever.
- Let’s put all of it on the freeway so you’re not getting the 350 miles range but instead about 280 miles range.
- 75 miles is 27% of 280 miles, so that’s what you arrive home with.
- But you get home at 17:00 and time-of-use doesn’t apply on the weekends, so you plug in right away.
- Sunday
- You don’t leave home until a more civilized hour of 10:00.
- From 17:00 to 10:00 is 17 hours.
- That’s 17 hours * 1.2 kW = 20.4 kWh
- That’s 17% of your battery
- Sunday morning you only have 100% - 27% + 17% = 90% State of Charge.
- No big deal.
- You head out again for another 75 miles of driving, again using 27%.
- You arrive home at 17:00 again and plug in.
- The vehicle has 90-27 = 63%.
- You charge from 17:00 to 07:30 because Mondays suck.
- Saturday
- During the Week:
- Monday:
- The vehicle charged 14.5 hours or 14.5% charge
12.5 hours for 15 kWh, or 12.5% increase in charge. - You leave for work with
~75%78% charge. - You return after 25 miles of driving with
68%71% state of charge.
- The vehicle charged 14.5 hours or 14.5% charge
- Tuesday
- Overnight, you gained 12% of your battery, leaving home with 80% state of charge.
- Return with 73%
- Gain 12% overnight.
- Wednesday
- You leave home with 85%
- Return with 78%
- Gain 12% overnight
- Thursday
- Leave home with 90%
- Return with 83%
- Gain 12% overnight
- Friday
- Leave home with 95%
- Return with 88%
- End with 100% overnight
- Saturday repeats.
- Monday:
Last edited:
Simplified math:
L1 charging means 1% per hour on a 120 kWh battery.
So you need 100 hours of charging to get 100% recharge on a 120 kWh battery.
Assuming 12 hours of charging overnight for 7 nights, that’s 84 hours.
You need an additional 16 hours distributed throughout the week to recover all 120 kWh or 350 miles if you drive the full 350 miles.
Or you can go 84% of your range weekly and recover all of that within a reasonable set of charging hours on a Level 1 charger.
If you have an L2 charger (say, 2.4, 4.8, 7.2, or 9.6 kW charge rate), for a 120 kWh battery:
2.4 kW charge rate recovers 2% per hour, so you only need 50 hours, so 4 12-hour nights plus a couple of hours will recover 100%.
4.8 kW charge rate recovers 4% per hour, so you only need 25 hours, or 2 12-hour nights plus an extra hour.
7.2 kW charge rate recovers 6% per hour, so you only need 17 hours, or 1.5 12-hour nights.
9.6 kW charge rate recovers 8% per hour, so you only need a single 12 hour night plus a half hour sometime.
L1 charging means 1% per hour on a 120 kWh battery.
So you need 100 hours of charging to get 100% recharge on a 120 kWh battery.
Assuming 12 hours of charging overnight for 7 nights, that’s 84 hours.
You need an additional 16 hours distributed throughout the week to recover all 120 kWh or 350 miles if you drive the full 350 miles.
Or you can go 84% of your range weekly and recover all of that within a reasonable set of charging hours on a Level 1 charger.
If you have an L2 charger (say, 2.4, 4.8, 7.2, or 9.6 kW charge rate), for a 120 kWh battery:
2.4 kW charge rate recovers 2% per hour, so you only need 50 hours, so 4 12-hour nights plus a couple of hours will recover 100%.
4.8 kW charge rate recovers 4% per hour, so you only need 25 hours, or 2 12-hour nights plus an extra hour.
7.2 kW charge rate recovers 6% per hour, so you only need 17 hours, or 1.5 12-hour nights.
9.6 kW charge rate recovers 8% per hour, so you only need a single 12 hour night plus a half hour sometime.
Even though it’s probably overkill (I work from home so some days I don’t even go anywhere) I’m still planning on getting a L2 charger. It will just make me feel better.
There is a slight flaw in this thought. You do not have electricity everywhere. I can circle a huge portion of Montana where electricity and charging don’t exist. However, I can take gas with me anywhere.
Totally. We have three for two cars...
Also, if it’s very cold where your car is charging, it’s possible you will use more charge than I estimated and your car won’t charge up as much overnight in the very cold, so you might be better off with an L2.
And recovering from a long trip is quite a bit quicker with an L2.
Garage but it’s not heated and yes it gets cold here. Next week we will be down into single digits at night.
"I want to ride my bicycle i like to ride my bike, I want ride my bicycle were ever i like"
The chainsaw won't be hard, but the tractor... It may be a while (unless you modify it yourself which seems highly likely in your case).
Yep. We don't do as much wood cutting as we used to, so I'm not rushing to replace the chainsaw. And the tractor... Well, we'll see. Every time I fire it up I get the urge to replace the diesel with electric. But I need a lot more space in my workshop before I'll pull the engine.The chainsaw won't be hard, but the tractor... It may be a while (unless you modify it yourself which seems highly likely in your case).
To consider changing from my Traveler EREV reservation to a BEV I would expect a considerably lower vehicle price and/or significant charging credit (i.e. and year of free charging at Tesla superchargers).
JD had one in the oven. Case/IH has or had the Farmall 75C. Which would meet my requirements. May have to look into the electric tractor again
Several brands were working on them. But I haven’t seen much movement lately. Kubota had a nice-looking one, but I believe it’s only available in the EU. And I can’t afford the bigger ones most brands have been developing. I need a ~25 HP-sized tractor for my purposes (the one I have is the biggest I could afford and it’s a bit small). I don’t know if Case/IH ever released their Farmall electric. I read about it a few years ago, but haven’t seen anything interesting since.
Many of the brands had also been trying to cram the electric part in with autonomous, tablet-driven, excessive nonsense. All I want is to plug in my tractor so it’s always ready to go, never have to go to a gas station again, and have quiet so I can listen to my audiobooks while working on the ranch.
The nice thing about my tractor is the diesel engine is just there to run the hydraulic pump. The drive motor doesn’t need to be very complex to accomplish the job. I believe replacing the diesel engine with an electric motor and mounting a controller and battery box (somewhere...) would only cost a fraction of what a new eTractor would cost. And it would have the added benefit of increasing the weight of the tractor so I can dig through the limestone here. But the time cost to do the conversion is too high for me right now.
Well now you have me dreaming out loud. Run a IH 656 Hydro. All I would need is an electric motor to run the hydraulic pumps.
The biggest factor I see here is NOT having to worry at all about any of the math (and the extremely long duration required to charge such a large battery pack, so slowly). Piece of mind, convenience, and a fast recovery from a long road trip and returning with a low SOC are all good reason to get one. You can find decent LII's for $500 bucks and if you don't have a long run for your wiring, you could pay in the neighborhood of $500 bucks for an installation. Short money over the life of your EV ownership period for peace of mind... AND, in the event of an emergency where you suddenly need to drive some longer distance, it will be nice to know your truck will always be sitting there with 70% SOC. Battery life, health and longevity won't be an issue charging all the time on LII either. Just my $02. cents!
Agreed.
The point of all that math was to show it could be done with L1.
The marginally higher cost of L2, with the added benefit of higher efficiency of L2 charging over L1 charging (lower relative overhead of running the electronics, lower resistance in the larger wires, etc) means in the long run L2 will be a better fit for most people who have the ability and resources to install an L2 charger.
Talked to a friend who’s an electrician. Will cost me about $1200 because I’ve got one spot left in panel so we’ll need to get creative or add a 100amp panel which may need anyway as we may finish our attic area over our garage. My initial thought on no L2 charger is just my schedule. I’d have 18 hour windows with no driving 3 times a week so not bad and commute round trip being 7 miles I’d be able to go for awhile. And work travel I have work truck and if I keep the new division growing at work I’m convincing work to get me a terra as they want to start converting fleet to EV. Not to mention our southern office in Charlotte is only a couple miles from the new SM headquarters.
An electric tractor is kind of a niche application - abet maybe a large niche. The tractor needs to have a location it goes to daily. It needs to be used in such a way that it does not need refueling multiple times a day - that its use is not time sensitive. For people with hobby tractors - that is probably true. With construction, farming, ranching - there are deadlines where the tractor needs to be used for extended periods or money is lost (because the rest of the crew is sitting around), where crops could be lost because the task is not completed before weather conditions change. The tractor might not be used every day, but every hour is important when it is needed. They are often used on remote locations - where driving them or trailering them to a charger would be valuable time lost.
My ranch, sure I could probably use hobby equipment. But moving from one work location to another takes 15-30 minutes. I usually move my equipment, work there as long as I can afford to (day, week, month), then move to another. Needing to do a 30 minute round trip to charge would be very frustrating. Having a dead battery at a remote location - great, would need a portable generator to fix that (and since it would rarely be used, just one more engine to maintain).
My ranch, sure I could probably use hobby equipment. But moving from one work location to another takes 15-30 minutes. I usually move my equipment, work there as long as I can afford to (day, week, month), then move to another. Needing to do a 30 minute round trip to charge would be very frustrating. Having a dead battery at a remote location - great, would need a portable generator to fix that (and since it would rarely be used, just one more engine to maintain).
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