Is there anything SM could offer to get you to switch from EREV to BEV?

[SpaceEVDriver]

I made these maps last spring from data that’s about a year old now.

The only areas I would have to think about planning for charging options is around MT, ND, SD, and WY and the north-eastern part of Nevada.
Locations of DCFC charging stations in the United States. The size of the circle indicates the number of plugs.

Heat map of locations within the US that are within 200 miles (straight-line) from a DCFC charging station. The darkness level gives a qualitative indication of the number of charging stations within 200 miles. There’s nowhere in the continental US that is farther than 200 miles from a charging station. But that big gap up in the SD, ND, MT, and WY area needs filling in.

And here’s a heat map of locations within the US that are within 50 miles (straight-line) from a DCFC charging station. The darker the red, the more charging stations there are within 50 miles. There’s pretty much nowhere on the coasts that are more than 50 miles from multiple charging stations.

The paucity is in the midwest and from west Texas north through Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska. And a bit of the non-highway regions in Nevada, Idaho, and eastern Oregon and Washington.

I’ve traveled through west Texas in 2022 and had no problems with charging; there’s more charging there now.

Only up in the WY, SD, ND, and MT areas would I have to sit down and plan the charging for a trip that explored those regions.
I still plan my trips for sites of interest, where and when to stop for the night, etc., as I’ve always done even in an ICEV, but I don’t worry about charging for the vast majority of our trips.

 

[maynard]

I made these maps last spring from data that’s about a year old now.

The only areas I would have to think about planning for charging options is around MT, ND, SD, and WY and the north-eastern part of Nevada.
Locations of DCFC charging stations in the United States. The size of the circle indicates the number of plugs.
View attachment 11480

Heat map of locations within the US that are within 200 miles (straight-line) from a DCFC charging station. The darkness level gives a qualitative indication of the number of charging stations within 200 miles. There’s nowhere in the continental US that is farther than 200 miles from a charging station. But that big gap up in the SD, ND, MT, and WY area needs filling in.

View attachment 11481

And here’s a heat map of locations within the US that are within 50 miles (straight-line) from a DCFC charging station. The darker the red, the more charging stations there are within 50 miles. There’s pretty much nowhere on the coasts that are more than 50 miles from multiple charging stations.

View attachment 11482

The paucity is in the midwest and from west Texas north through Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska. And a bit of the non-highway regions in Nevada, Idaho, and eastern Oregon and Washington.

I’ve traveled through west Texas in 2022 and had no problems with charging; there’s more charging there now.

Only up in the WY, SD, ND, and MT areas would I have to sit down and plan the charging for a trip that explored those regions.
I still plan my trips for sites of interest, where and when to stop for the night, etc., as I’ve always done even in an ICEV, but I don’t worry about charging for the vast majority of our trips.

Thanks for this! Valuable stuff!

 

[speedrye]

Winter in northern Maine is definitely a problem. Jackman, ME is the last charger heading north to my knowledge and you definitely DON'T want to plug anything bigger than a cell phone in to the usual cabins. Most of the logging roads stay pretty clear, but deeper snow and cold weather is hard on any vehicle, especially when parked outdoors. I'm usually the only 4wd drive vehicle around as everyone else is on snowmobiles, haha.

First time I'd taken my FJ up there, years ago...

Farther south, it's not too bad. There's a Supercharger on each route I take to the beach, so you're not usually looking at more than 120-150 miles between them. I generally avoid major highways, so it makes things worse. I also don't like stopping, so I'll run 900+ miles straight with maybe 30 minutes of total stops for gas, eating while on the move. Sure, changing my travel style would help, but I'm not changing my preferences for a vehicle. I change vehicles/accessories for my preferences.

 

[BeerParty]

With my Tesla, we installed a home charging station. I’ll do the same when my Traveller come home….

You should check if your charging station can support NACS. If your current home charging station can support NACS, then you should be able to use it for your Traveler.

 

[LonnyMacD]

You should check if your charging station can support NACS. If your current home charging station can support NACS, then you should be able to use it for your Traveler.

I appreciate that, but we’re timing the SM sale with retirement/moving back east (NH). So, whatever home we purchase, we’ll need to install a new one.

 

[DJG]

I think that for 99% of people the BEV is plenty. I have a Rivian with a rated range of 330. I typically get 300 or so on longer drives. There are probably a dozen times per year that I drive more miles in a day that I can get in a full battery. On those trips, I can usually get a decent recharge on a planned stop for lunch, coffee, bathroom, etc. I don’t think it’s worth it for most people to pay several thousand extra plus maintenance for the EREV.

The exceptions I can think of is if you are going into really remote areas or towing (and the range extender limits towing ability).

As far as what Scout can do to minimize the need for the EREV, here are some ideas.

Offer a larger battery. A range of 400-450 miles would be a pretty big difference maker in that very few people need to drive more than that in a day on any regularity, especially in a truck.

Offer a wheel/tire combo that is more range oriented. Maybe they are planning to do this, but the tires on the demo vehicles are beefy. They are probably what most people want, but they surely aren’t maxing out range. Some people may prefer a lighter tire that gets 10% or so more miles.

Put in high speed chargers in some of the semi popular but remote areas. Rivian is doing this to some extent, and they target a similar demographic to Scout. The hardest thing about having an EV is getting to a destination that doesn’t have reliable charging. Minimizing this would be a huge benefit.

 

[J Alynn]

I think that for 99% of people the BEV is plenty. I have a Rivian with a rated range of 330. I typically get 300 or so on longer drives. There are probably a dozen times per year that I drive more miles in a day that I can get in a full battery. On those trips, I can usually get a decent recharge on a planned stop for lunch, coffee, bathroom, etc. I don’t think it’s worth it for most people to pay several thousand extra plus maintenance for the EREV.

The exceptions I can think of is if you are going into really remote areas or towing (and the range extender limits towing ability).

As far as what Scout can do to minimize the need for the EREV, here are some ideas.

Offer a larger battery. A range of 400-450 miles would be a pretty big difference maker in that very few people need to drive more than that in a day on any regularity, especially in a truck.

Offer a wheel/tire combo that is more range oriented. Maybe they are planning to do this, but the tires on the demo vehicles are beefy. They are probably what most people want, but they surely aren’t maxing out range. Some people may prefer a lighter tire that gets 10% or so more miles.

Put in high speed chargers in some of the semi popular but remote areas. Rivian is doing this to some extent, and they target a similar demographic to Scout. The hardest thing about having an EV is getting to a destination that doesn’t have reliable charging. Minimizing this would be a huge benefit.

You’ve covered my thoughts completely on this. The problem with added range is getting the next level of battery advancement. They told us at the reveal that the space is maxed out with battery space. So either SSB has a huge breakthrough which we all know isn’t imminent or maybe they put a skirt and lift on the vehicle (like an ADA/wheelchair accessible outfitted mini van) and increase depth but then you’d lose the 12” clearance for off-roading. Do you look at the new Recon with only 8” off-road clearance and say-hey, let’s go deeper with batteries and offer an extended BEV version with only 8” vertical? 12” clearance is great but I’m guessing majority of buyers would be OK with 8”

 

[Jamie@ScoutMotors]

You’ve covered my thoughts completely on this. The problem with added range is getting the next level of battery advancement. They told us at the reveal that the space is maxed out with battery space. So either SSB has a huge breakthrough which we all know isn’t imminent or maybe they put a skirt and lift on the vehicle (like an ADA/wheelchair accessible outfitted mini van) and increase depth but then you’d lose the 12” clearance for off-roading. Do you look at the new Recon with only 8” off-road clearance and say-hey, let’s go deeper with batteries and offer an extended BEV version with only 8” vertical? 12” clearance is great but I’m guessing majority of buyers would be OK with 8”

Just to clarify, the Traveler wheelbase is shorter and the battery space is more limited than that of the pickup truck. That said, throwing more batteries at the pickup truck adds weight and cost and may not be the best solution for the market. The larger point is that we have more space to work with in the Terra and that gives us options.

 

[Latrant]

I think that for 99% of people the BEV is plenty. I have a Rivian with a rated range of 330. I typically get 300 or so on longer drives. There are probably a dozen times per year that I drive more miles in a day that I can get in a full battery. On those trips, I can usually get a decent recharge on a planned stop for lunch, coffee, bathroom, etc. I don’t think it’s worth it for most people to pay several thousand extra plus maintenance for the EREV.

The exceptions I can think of is if you are going into really remote areas or towing (and the range extender limits towing ability).

As far as what Scout can do to minimize the need for the EREV, here are some ideas.

Offer a larger battery. A range of 400-450 miles would be a pretty big difference maker in that very few people need to drive more than that in a day on any regularity, especially in a truck.

Offer a wheel/tire combo that is more range oriented. Maybe they are planning to do this, but the tires on the demo vehicles are beefy. They are probably what most people want, but they surely aren’t maxing out range. Some people may prefer a lighter tire that gets 10% or so more miles.

Put in high speed chargers in some of the semi popular but remote areas. Rivian is doing this to some extent, and they target a similar demographic to Scout. The hardest thing about having an EV is getting to a destination that doesn’t have reliable charging. Minimizing this would be a huge benefit.

Agree with all you've said. I think Scout with EREV will have a problem if Towing Capacity is limited to 5,000 lbs as Scott K said with Jay Leno. Just for driving and eliminating range anxiety it will be great, in either Terra or Traveler format.

If you've traveled with a BEV (and I have from Cleveland to Chicago and Cinci to Cleveland) just to drive longer distances, then you know charging is not really a problem. That's especially true on the Turnpike from Cleveland to Chicago. Tesla Superchargers at each stop I went to and convenient for food and bathroom breaks. Cinci to Cleveland I stopped at Ionna with native NACS.

If you're buying it to tow and, as I have thought "It would be great to have a gas generator backup and be able to tow an RV to get more range or use the generator at a campsite," then this is probably not going to happen with Scout, because its towing capacity is going to be reduced and make it no longer useful for towing any RV trailer of any size.

The BEV Terra will be useful at its rated range of 10,000 lbs (80/20 rule so 8,000 lb trailer and 800 lb tongue weight is close to the Lightship AE1 RV anyway). But unless you are towing an EV assisted RV like the Lightship AE1 EV, then you're towing range in the BEV will be significantly reduced, like the Lightning TFL trucks did. It went from a range of 300 to 88 miles total towing a trailer. Americans will never accept that. Having said that, I do see in the burbs of Cleveland, Chevy Silverado EVs hauling lawn company trailers with their riding mowers on the back. A Scout with 5,000 lbs could do that.

Unless you are going to buy the Lightship RV with Trekdrive (which is what I plan but we'll see. I'd much rather rent for scattered weeks than buy a $200 k RV).

 

[Latrant]

You’ve covered my thoughts completely on this. The problem with added range is getting the next level of battery advancement. They told us at the reveal that the space is maxed out with battery space. So either SSB has a huge breakthrough which we all know isn’t imminent or maybe they put a skirt and lift on the vehicle (like an ADA/wheelchair accessible outfitted mini van) and increase depth but then you’d lose the 12” clearance for off-roading. Do you look at the new Recon with only 8” off-road clearance and say-hey, let’s go deeper with batteries and offer an extended BEV version with only 8” vertical? 12” clearance is great but I’m guessing majority of buyers would be OK with 8”

I think only Sodium Battery breakthroughs or Solid State Battery Breakthroughs, we might get all we'd like in Towing Capacity and Range but these breakthroughs are several years away from being marketable. UC San Diego's Tin based (with carbon nanotubes) Anode looks really promising. Announced in September but now looking for partners. It took Lithium Ion years to become ubiquitous.

Sodium is better than LFP at cold temps, likes to charge to 100% like LFP and now, with a breakthrough at UC San Diego just announced, will be more energy dense, but just research announced. Getting to market will be a while after Scout debuts.

Breakthrough Advances Sodium-Based Battery Design

today.ucsd.edu

 

[KSOutdoor]

If you think logically about charging.. you have electricity everywhere. Gas is in a storage tank and it expires. If you have a gas motor in your hybrid/plug-in hybrid/erev, you need to run the motor often and you still have to service it at least every 5k miles.

Low voltage charging, at a 110v outlet, it is possible. It's slower, and better for your batteries.

I read somewhere, someone had a plug-in hybrid RAV4 prime and was able to get someone at the Casey's general store to allow this person to plug in their RAV4 to one of their wall outlets. It took 10 hours or so.

If you are in dire straits, you still have options with a full BEV. It seems like gas stations are everywhere, but think about it. Electricity is literally everywhere.

As BEVs continue evolving the charging infrastructure in the vehicle will get better and better. It won't be a bad idea to just sit somewhere and charge at 110v every now and then. Also, as the charging architecture improves, the charging rate at 110v may not be that slow.

The other thing is how the harvester + electric models use lithium iron phosphate batteries vs the nickel manganese cobalt batteries in the BEV models. Also the harvester model cuts your electric range in half and lowers your towing capacity.

I think if more people knew more facts about all of it, it would be beneficial.

 

[cyure]

If you think logically about charging.. you have electricity everywhere. Gas is in a storage tank and it expires. If you have a gas motor in your hybrid/plug-in hybrid/erev, you need to run the motor often and you still have to service it at least every 5k miles.

Low voltage charging, at a 110v outlet, it is possible. It's slower, and better for your batteries.

I read somewhere, someone had a plug-in hybrid RAV4 prime and was able to get someone at the Casey's general store to allow this person to plug in their RAV4 to one of their wall outlets. It took 10 hours or so.

If you are in dire straits, you still have options with a full BEV. It seems like gas stations are everywhere, but think about it. Electricity is literally everywhere.

As BEVs continue evolving the charging infrastructure in the vehicle will get better and better. It won't be a bad idea to just sit somewhere and charge at 110v every now and then. Also, as the charging architecture improves, the charging rate at 110v may not be that slow.

The other thing is how the harvester + electric models use lithium iron phosphate batteries vs the nickel manganese cobalt batteries in the BEV models. Also the harvester model cuts your electric range in half and lowers your towing capacity.

I think if more people knew more facts about all of it, it would be beneficial.

I agree. It will be interesting to see after the specs are released how many people stick with the Harvester and how many switch over to the BEV.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

If you think logically about charging.. you have electricity everywhere. Gas is in a storage tank and it expires. If you have a gas motor in your hybrid/plug-in hybrid/erev, you need to run the motor often and you still have to service it at least every 5k miles.

Low voltage charging, at a 110v outlet, it is possible. It's slower, and better for your batteries.

I read somewhere, someone had a plug-in hybrid RAV4 prime and was able to get someone at the Casey's general store to allow this person to plug in their RAV4 to one of their wall outlets. It took 10 hours or so.

If you are in dire straits, you still have options with a full BEV. It seems like gas stations are everywhere, but think about it. Electricity is literally everywhere.

As BEVs continue evolving the charging infrastructure in the vehicle will get better and better. It won't be a bad idea to just sit somewhere and charge at 110v every now and then. Also, as the charging architecture improves, the charging rate at 110v may not be that slow.

The other thing is how the harvester + electric models use lithium iron phosphate batteries vs the nickel manganese cobalt batteries in the BEV models. Also the harvester model cuts your electric range in half and lowers your towing capacity.

I think if more people knew more facts about all of it, it would be beneficial.

I often have meetings out of town and when I drive, the meeting location often has an outlet I can plug into. If I’m there for 8 hours, I can get 8 hours*1.2 kW = 9.6 kWh of charge per day. For a 3-day meeting, that’s 28.8 kWh, or 22% of my Lightning battery and 31% of my Mustang battery.
Coupled with L2 charging at 7 kW wherever I’m staying, and I almost always have a full battery by the time I’m ready to head home. And there’s zero necessity to go somewhere else to refuel.

 

[DJG]

If you think logically about charging.. you have electricity everywhere. Gas is in a storage tank and it expires. If you have a gas motor in your hybrid/plug-in hybrid/erev, you need to run the motor often and you still have to service it at least every 5k miles.

Low voltage charging, at a 110v outlet, it is possible. It's slower, and better for your batteries.

I read somewhere, someone had a plug-in hybrid RAV4 prime and was able to get someone at the Casey's general store to allow this person to plug in their RAV4 to one of their wall outlets. It took 10 hours or so.

If you are in dire straits, you still have options with a full BEV. It seems like gas stations are everywhere, but think about it. Electricity is literally everywhere.

As BEVs continue evolving the charging infrastructure in the vehicle will get better and better. It won't be a bad idea to just sit somewhere and charge at 110v every now and then. Also, as the charging architecture improves, the charging rate at 110v may not be that slow.

The other thing is how the harvester + electric models use lithium iron phosphate batteries vs the nickel manganese cobalt batteries in the BEV models. Also the harvester model cuts your electric range in half and lowers your towing capacity.

I think if more people knew more facts about all of it, it would be beneficial.

You make a point that I had thought of a while back and forgot. Gasoline does go bad over time. I wonder how many people will only use the backup generator on the rare long drive, and therefore the gas may sit in the tank for months at a time.

As far as charging at a 110V outlet, that is very slow. I tried to do this when I first got my Rivian and didn’t have a home charger. I could get about 1 mile of range per hour. You are correct that electricity is everywhere, but a 110V, 15 amp outlet is not a viable option for any significant amount of charging. It’s really emergency only.

 

[cyure]

I often have meetings out of town and when I drive, the meeting location often has an outlet I can plug into. If I’m there for 8 hours, I can get 8 hours*1.2 kW = 9.6 kWh of charge per day. For a 3-day meeting, that’s 28.8 kWh, or 22% of my Lightning battery and 31% of my Mustang battery.
Coupled with L2 charging at 7 kW wherever I’m staying, and I almost always have a full battery by the time I’m ready to head home. And there’s zero necessity to go somewhere else to refuel.

I was waiting to see how long it would take for you to pipe up.

 

[Chaz26]

You make a point that I had thought of a while back and forgot. Gasoline does go bad over time. I wonder how many people will only use the backup generator on the rare long drive, and therefore the gas may sit in the tank for months at a time.

As far as charging at a 110V outlet, that is very slow. I tried to do this when I first got my Rivian and didn’t have a home charger. I could get about 1 mile of range per hour. You are correct that electricity is everywhere, but a 110V, 15 amp outlet is not a viable option for any significant amount of charging. It’s really emergency only.

I'm assuming the Harvester may have some sort of built in knowledge about when it was last ran and perhaps will require it to run every so often for that reason. I also wonder if you don't need the Harvester that often if there would be any recommendations regarding adding any fuel stabilizer.

 

[cyure]

You make a point that I had thought of a while back and forgot. Gasoline does go bad over time. I wonder how many people will only use the backup generator on the rare long drive, and therefore the gas may sit in the tank for months at a time.

As far as charging at a 110V outlet, that is very slow. I tried to do this when I first got my Rivian and didn’t have a home charger. I could get about 1 mile of range per hour. You are correct that electricity is everywhere, but a 110V, 15 amp outlet is not a viable option for any significant amount of charging. It’s really emergency only.

I spoke to someone who owned the Wrangler 4xe. They said every 750 miles if you had not used the engine the EV only feature would not work for a period of time.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

I was waiting to see how long it would take for you to pipe up.

I'm trying to pipe down a bit so others can speak up.

I'm so glad I don't have to deal with fossil fuels and the massive inconveniences they create for most of my use-cases. I have just two more engines to get rid of (diesel tractor and gas chainsaw).

My experiences with BEVs have me ready to toss the diesel engine out of my tractor in favor of a battery and electric motor.

 

[cyure]

I'm trying to pipe down a bit so others can speak up.

I'm so glad I don't have to deal with fossil fuels and the massive inconveniences they create for most of my use-cases. I have just two more engines to get rid of (diesel tractor and gas chainsaw).

My experiences with BEVs have me ready to toss the diesel engine out of my tractor in favor of a battery and electric motor.

Do not pipe down. Sometimes I find myself just waiting for you to post the answer because I know you have it.

I never thought I would be so excited about getting a BEV, but I can’t wait!

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

Do not pipe down. Sometimes I find myself just waiting for you to post the answer because I know you have it.

I never thought I would be so excited about getting a BEV, but I can’t wait!

You can always tag me. I don’t mind.