Is there anything SM could offer to get you to switch from EREV to BEV?

[mbowman90]

Currently I have a Harvester reservation. I tend to keep my vehicles. I buy them new, drive them till nearly dead, pass them down to the kids, resurrect them when they fail, and finally sell them for scrap. I can't remember a car I got rid of before 200k with one exception: a POS 2000 Dodge Grand Caravan that started falling apart as soon as the warranty expired in 2005. I was in Iraq, wife pregnant with #2, told her to drive it to the nearest Honda dealer and buy any Odyssey on the lot. Kid #2 is still driving it.
I think the only thing that's keeping me from switching to the BEV is I'm a bit anxious about EV lifespans. I've read EVs batteries are generally warrantied for 8, but may last 10-20. That's a big range. Is it cheaper to replace the Harvester battery if goes? Logic tells me it should be because it's smaller? But maybe it will get more wear and tear because of a more demanding use/charging cycle.
Then, living in Maryland, our Gov. has decided that EV owners aren't paying gas tax so he created an extra EV/PHEV fee (he likes the word "fee" instead of "Tax"). I thought the left are supposed to incentivize EVs? I miss SC.
And last, do I lose my place in line switching my reservation?

 

[cyure]

Currently I have a Harvester reservation. I tend to keep my vehicles. I buy them new, drive them till nearly dead, pass them down to the kids, resurrect them when they fail, and finally sell them for scrap. I can't remember a car I got rid of before 200k with one exception: a POS 2000 Dodge Grand Caravan that started falling apart as soon as the warranty expired in 2005. I was in Iraq, wife pregnant with #2, told her to drive it to the nearest Honda dealer and buy any Odyssey on the lot. Kid #2 is still driving it.
I think the only thing that's keeping me from switching to the BEV is I'm a bit anxious about EV lifespans. I've read EVs batteries are generally warrantied for 8, but may last 10-20. That's a big range. Is it cheaper to replace the Harvester battery if goes? Logic tells me it should be because it's smaller? But maybe it will get more wear and tear because of a more demanding use/charging cycle.
Then, living in Maryland, our Gov. has decided that EV owners aren't paying gas tax so he created an extra EV/PHEV fee (he likes the word "fee" instead of "Tax"). I thought the left are supposed to incentivize EVs? I miss SC.
And last, do I lose my place in line switching my reservation?

I will let others speak to battery health. As far as changing your reservation to a BEV, you do not lose your place in line and your reservation number stays the same. I changed mine a while ago from Harvester to BEV and the number is the same as it was when I put my reservation in on launch day.

 

[bwdavis7]

Currently I have a Harvester reservation. I tend to keep my vehicles. I buy them new, drive them till nearly dead, pass them down to the kids, resurrect them when they fail, and finally sell them for scrap. I can't remember a car I got rid of before 200k with one exception: a POS 2000 Dodge Grand Caravan that started falling apart as soon as the warranty expired in 2005. I was in Iraq, wife pregnant with #2, told her to drive it to the nearest Honda dealer and buy any Odyssey on the lot. Kid #2 is still driving it.
I think the only thing that's keeping me from switching to the BEV is I'm a bit anxious about EV lifespans. I've read EVs batteries are generally warrantied for 8, but may last 10-20. That's a big range. Is it cheaper to replace the Harvester battery if goes? Logic tells me it should be because it's smaller? But maybe it will get more wear and tear because of a more demanding use/charging cycle.
Then, living in Maryland, our Gov. has decided that EV owners aren't paying gas tax so he created an extra EV/PHEV fee (he likes the word "fee" instead of "Tax"). I thought the left are supposed to incentivize EVs? I miss SC.
And last, do I lose my place in line switching my reservation?

@cyure is correct. You want lose your place in line, however it appears the EREV will be released earlier. I also swapped to BEV based on my driving needs. Even though it is likely that I'll have to wait for my BEV while others are loving their EREVs, I can't see me swapping back to EREV. And like you, I tend to keep my vehicles for the long haul and do most all the maintenance myself. I still have my 2001 Sequoia and 1979 Scout II both purchased new. My intent is to keep my BEV Scout and since I'm getting older, I don't care to do much maintenance and oil changes on the new Scout.

I've read EVs batteries are generally warrantied for 8, but may last 10-20.

I'm sure @SpaceEVDriver has covered battery life in this community, but I figure with the new battery technologies, by the time the BEV Scout is released that my new Scout will outlive me.

I miss SC.

Our current governor is all in with EVs and specifically Scout, however our legislature is not following suit. They are heavily lobbied by the dealerships. So far, attempts to modify the franchise laws in SC have failed. A new governor will be voted in soon, but it's not looking real encouraging that the likely candidates will support EVs, but regardless, the legislators are the biggest concern related to EVs. SC legislators were considering a significant increase in state fees (taxes) for EVs. Fortunately, it didn't pass yet.

 

[R1TVT]

Thread 'Battery Life Cycle'

Oct 26, 2024

Sorry if this already a thread somewhere. (Didn't see one).

But what does the battery life cycle look like. Eventually all batteries will need to be replaced, is there a recycling program in the works? Thought into future upgrades as solid state becomes commercially viable? Realistic warranty or incentive pricing for sticking with your Scout and not selling it because the cost of a battery replacement is more than the vehicle is worth at that point?

• ID_ENG
• Replies: 44
• Forum: GENERAL DISCUSSION

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[thespieler11]

They need to formalize specs and price. Once I see where it all lands that's where I may switch from EREV to BEV.

 

[SrfnFly227]

Currently I have a Harvester reservation. I tend to keep my vehicles. I buy them new, drive them till nearly dead, pass them down to the kids, resurrect them when they fail, and finally sell them for scrap. I can't remember a car I got rid of before 200k with one exception: a POS 2000 Dodge Grand Caravan that started falling apart as soon as the warranty expired in 2005. I was in Iraq, wife pregnant with #2, told her to drive it to the nearest Honda dealer and buy any Odyssey on the lot. Kid #2 is still driving it.
I think the only thing that's keeping me from switching to the BEV is I'm a bit anxious about EV lifespans. I've read EVs batteries are generally warrantied for 8, but may last 10-20. That's a big range. Is it cheaper to replace the Harvester battery if goes? Logic tells me it should be because it's smaller? But maybe it will get more wear and tear because of a more demanding use/charging cycle.
Then, living in Maryland, our Gov. has decided that EV owners aren't paying gas tax so he created an extra EV/PHEV fee (he likes the word "fee" instead of "Tax"). I thought the left are supposed to incentivize EVs? I miss SC.
And last, do I lose my place in line switching my reservation?

Just a thought, but battery life and tech changes may actually make the Harvester unnecessary. Let's say you buy the EREV now and need to replace the battery pack in 15 years. The batteries available may have a long enough range that you no longer need the engine that's in the vehicle. Or, what if the engine isn't powerful enough to charge the newer tech batteries and now you're stuck with trying to find an older tech battery?

I don't ask those questions in an attempt to sway somebody one way or another. In fact I still debate which model I'll end up with as I originally ordered the EREV and have since changed my reservation to BEV. I wanted the EREV for range while towing, but feel the BEV is the better fit while just accepting the 2-3 times a year that I tow, I'll have to spend some extra time at the charger.

 

[strider]

I think the only thing that's keeping me from switching to the BEV is I'm a bit anxious about EV lifespans. I've read EVs batteries are generally warrantied for 8, but may last 10-20. That's a big range. Is it cheaper to replace the Harvester battery if goes? Logic tells me it should be because it's smaller? But maybe it will get more wear and tear because of a more demanding use/charging cycle.
Then, living in Maryland, our Gov. has decided that EV owners aren't paying gas tax so he created an extra EV/PHEV fee (he likes the word "fee" instead of "Tax"). I thought the left are supposed to incentivize EVs? I miss SC.
And last, do I lose my place in line switching my reservation?

Battery chemistries will not change for the V1 Scouts. Harvester will use LFP and BEV will use NMC. These are both commodity chemistries (read: cheapest) and are well understood. The rule of thumb is 5,000 change cycles before the battery loses 20% of its capacity. At 150 miles/charge on the Harvester, you're looking at 750,000 miles. That being said, there is a small amount of calendar degradation. That is minimized by not keeping the batteries at 100% or 0% State of Charge (SOC) for long periods. That being said, LFP is less sensitive to that than NMC. NMC has better performance (faster charging and discharging) but that less important in the Harvester as the pack is smaller. Note that every EV manufacturer quotes charging in X% to Y% in Z minutes. The Harvester pack is smaller so it doesn't need a high rate to have good numbers.

IMO, the BEV will outlast the Harvester - way fewer things to break. There is of course a chance that the battery pack fails for some reason. But that is as rare as completely destroying an engine. You pretty much to do something wrong to do that. In the BEV world, that is leaving the vehicle unplugged in extreme weather for long periods. The vehicle will run heat and cool the battery to keep it safe. If it's plugged in it will use "shore power" to do this and can sit indefinitely. If it's not plugged in it will have to use battery power to do this and eventually the battery can be run down so far the pack becomes what we called "bricked" and is unrecoverable (if Li-Ion cells drop below a certain voltage it is dangerous to recharge them so the vehicle will prevent charging.

 

[mbowman90]

Battery chemistries will not change for the V1 Scouts. Harvester will use LFP and BEV will use NMC. These are both commodity chemistries (read: cheapest) and are well understood. The rule of thumb is 5,000 change cycles before the battery loses 20% of its capacity. At 150 miles/charge on the Harvester, you're looking at 750,000 miles. That being said, there is a small amount of calendar degradation. That is minimized by not keeping the batteries at 100% or 0% State of Charge (SOC) for long periods. That being said, LFP is less sensitive to that than NMC. NMC has better performance (faster charging and discharging) but that less important in the Harvester as the pack is smaller. Note that every EV manufacturer quotes charging in X% to Y% in Z minutes. The Harvester pack is smaller so it doesn't need a high rate to have good numbers.

IMO, the BEV will outlast the Harvester - way fewer things to break. There is of course a chance that the battery pack fails for some reason. But that is as rare as completely destroying an engine. You pretty much to do something wrong to do that. In the BEV world, that is leaving the vehicle unplugged in extreme weather for long periods. The vehicle will run heat and cool the battery to keep it safe. If it's plugged in it will use "shore power" to do this and can sit indefinitely. If it's not plugged in it will have to use battery power to do this and eventually the battery can be run down so far the pack becomes what we called "bricked" and is unrecoverable (if Li-Ion cells drop below a certain voltage it is dangerous to recharge them so the vehicle will prevent charging.

Thanks - without going to the battery thread (which I'm about to check out) that is a great explanation of battery life and how to start to set my expectations. TBH, this would be my first EV and the horror stories I get from my coworkers aren't the most encouraging; especially all the Caddy Lyriq owners

 

[cyure]

Thanks - without going to the battery thread (which I'm about to check out) that is a great explanation of battery life and how to start to set my expectations. TBH, this would be my first EV and the horror stories I get from my coworkers aren't the most encouraging; especially all the Caddy Lyriq owners

I just spoke recently with someone who owns one of those and she said yes it’s had some issues but she loves it and would never go back to ICE.

 

[mbowman90]

I just spoke recently with someone who owns one of those and she said yes it’s had some issues but she loves it and would never go back to ICE.

I get that - not going back to ICE. I have 3 Lyriq owners here. They all are ICE and EV owners. They're looking mostly to dump the Lyriq for a new EV. They've all had 12V battery issues, random quality and software issues, and extremely long troubleshooting/repair times. They DO say they like it (the Lyriq) when it works. I really hope the 1st gen Scout has a better showing.

 

[R1TVT]

I get that - not going back to ICE. I have 3 Lyriq owners here. They all are ICE and EV owners. They're looking mostly to dump the Lyriq for a new EV. They've all had 12V battery issues, random quality and software issues, and extremely long troubleshooting/repair times. They DO say they like it (the Lyriq) when it works. I really hope the 1st gen Scout has a better showing.

This is what I like about companies like Rivian & Scout being ALL EV. They aren;t dropping half measures at something with an "ICE backstop" that they are still fully committed to (like the big 3)

 

[J Alynn]

This is what I like about companies like Rivian & Scout being ALL EV. They aren;t dropping half measures at something with an "ICE backstop" that they are still fully committed to (like the big 3)

Very true and it also gives way more focus to one power train

 

[mrgold35]

I don't think I would swap to the BEV version? The Scout would be the main travel vehicle for road trips of 2 hours or multi-day +20 hours long. Not ready to give up my gas break with quick bathroom/snack runs inside and back on the road in 5-10 minutes for another 350-450 miles down the road. My understanding is the Scout EREV can still do the 5-10 minute gas break for 300-350 miles.

My driving habits seem to match well with I.C.E. or non plug-in hybrid pretty well living in the southwest. The additional benefit I see with the EREV is being able to go 100-150 miles on pure EV for daily city duties like errands or work. I would only need to top off the battery pack once a week. Most PHEV I've seen don't have that kind of range in pure EV mode. I "could" go from 1-3 gas up per month with my Acura MDX hybrid to 1-3 gas up per year with the Scout Traveler EREV. Probably around the similar $$ for road-trips for the MDX hybrid 25-27 hwy mpgs (500 miles/19.4 gal gas tank) compared to Scout (350 miles/15 gal gas tank).

Only if there is a significant price jump to the EREV would make me think Scout BEV version OR jumping ship to another EREV or hybrid brand.

 

[cyure]

I don't think I would swap to the BEV version? The Scout would be the main travel vehicle for road trips of 2 hours or multi-day +20 hours long. Not ready to give up my gas break with quick bathroom/snack runs inside and back on the road in 5-10 minutes for another 350-450 miles down the road. My understanding is the Scout EREV can still do the 5-10 minute gas break for 300-350 miles.

My driving habits seem to match well with I.C.E. or non plug-in hybrid pretty well living in the southwest. The additional benefit I see with the EREV is being able to go 100-150 miles on pure EV for daily city duties like errands or work. I would only need to top off the battery pack once a week. Most PHEV I've seen don't have that kind of range in pure EV mode. I "could" go from 1-3 gas up per month with my Acura MDX hybrid to 1-3 gas up per year with the Scout Traveler EREV. Probably around the similar $$ for road-trips for the MDX hybrid 25-27 hwy mpgs (500 miles/19.4 gal gas tank) compared to Scout (350 miles/15 gal gas tank).

Only if there is a significant price jump to the EREV would make me think Scout BEV version OR jumping ship to another EREV or hybrid brand.

I’m supportive of whatever works for people.

All I will say is I thought oh yeah gas/bathroom and possibly get a snack is 5 to 10 minutes. I started timing our stops. They were 13 to 20 minutes depending on if it was 2 or 4 of us. At that point I realized I could have been charging that whole time rather than get gas, have to park again, then run in and do whatever. It really wasn’t saving as much time as I thought ICE versus EV would save.

 

[mrgold35]

I just see several Tesla charging up at my usual stretch/snack/bathroom break in Trinidad, Co, on my way to Colo Sprgs or Denver. I imagine the Tesla owner recharged in ABQ? I get in/out and back on the road while the Tesla owners are standing around looking at their vehicles recharging. I would probably be standing next to them with my Scout BEV with 300-350 mile range compared to hitting the road in the EREV?

 

[RodorW]

I just see several Tesla charging up at my usual stretch/snack/bathroom break in Trinidad, Co, on my way to Colo Sprgs or Denver. I imagine the Tesla owner recharged in ABQ? I get in/out and back on the road while the Tesla owners are standing around looking at their vehicles recharging. I would probably be standing next to them with my Scout BEV with 300-350 mile range compared to hitting the road in the EREV?

It all depends on the trip; 5-10 minutes on DCFC can be more than enough for an hour plus of driving, but it depends on a bunch of factors like weather, driving behavior, and the overall trip itself. When I had to use DCFC daily back last year while waiting to have our L2 installed, I would be there 20-40 minutes on average, but the bolt can only take 55KW in on a 65KW pack, and I was running all of that juice back out. However, I would also often see people charging to 100 or topping up to 80, which, generally at DCFC, is more than you really need. There were plenty of people who would pull in charge for 5-10 and be on their way. Now, when I stop for a fast charge, which is usually only on personal travels, 15-20 minutes is my average, to get enough to assure I can make it home with worries about behaviors or conditions

 

[LastDayScout]

Thanks - without going to the battery thread (which I'm about to check out) that is a great explanation of battery life and how to start to set my expectations. TBH, this would be my first EV and the horror stories I get from my coworkers aren't the most encouraging; especially all the Caddy Lyriq owners

Interesting how experiences can differ. My co worker loves his Lyric and has had no issues. My brother likes his Vistiq. I have a BMW iX and it has been perfect.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

On the regular 1200 mile round trip route we take almost every month, we see exactly zero time difference between when we drove it with a gassy vehicle and now with an EV. We stop for lunch and then for dinner and at each of those stops we charge. The charge is done before we are finished with our meal.

 

[mrgold35]

It all depends on the trip; 5-10 minutes on DCFC can be more than enough for an hour plus of driving, but it depends on a bunch of factors like weather, driving behavior, and the overall trip itself. When I had to use DCFC daily back last year while waiting to have our L2 installed, I would be there 20-40 minutes on average, but the bolt can only take 55KW in on a 65KW pack, and I was running all of that juice back out. However, I would also often see people charging to 100 or topping up to 80, which, generally at DCFC, is more than you really need. There were plenty of people who would pull in charge for 5-10 and be on their way. Now, when I stop for a fast charge, which is usually only on personal travels, 15-20 minutes is my average, to get enough to assure I can make it home with worries about behaviors or conditions

My MDX hybrid can drive non-stop from ABQ to Denver (+/-450 miles). I usually make a stop just for a stretch/bathroom/snack/lunch break somewhere along the way. I sometimes stop at Sam's or Costco for a break because gas is cheaper, $1.50 for a snack, and the bathrooms are very clean. I haven't noticed if they have any EV charging capabilities for either? The only change I would make when I get the Scout Traveler EREV is staying at hotels with EV charging or pick a location near EV charging.

I really like the 500 mile EREV concept because I can still keep my usual road trip routine. I don't want to be dependent on an extra EV stop to add X amount of kWh with the 350 mile BEV version. DCFC cost can be 25% to 50% higher in rural areas out west compared to major metro. Pretty much everything is rural and 2-8 hours in between major metro areas. I can get gas 100% in 5-15 minutes in any town along the way; but, I'm not sure I have consistent DCFC at designated planned stops? Having I.C.E., hybrid/PHEV, or EREV vehicles works perfectly out west if you road trip a lot.

I don't think I will get the full 500 mile EREV range with 5000-7800 feet of elevation change at 75-80 mph speeds. I would be happy with +400 miles EREV mode and +300 miles gas only motor/generator.

 

[speedrye]

On the regular 1200 mile round trip route we take almost every month, we see exactly zero time difference between when we drove it with a gassy vehicle and now with an EV. We stop for lunch and then for dinner and at each of those stops we charge. The charge is done before we are finished with our meal.

Since you're on the more advanced side of the country as far as charging goes, are there decent dining options where charging stations are located? I'm starting to scout charging stations and so far I've seen two with non-gas station food in easy walking distance. One was a local restaurant with a single NEMA 14-50 and the other was a decent Tesla setup near food at the beach. Just curious what I have to look forward to as things progress in this end of the world.