Tow range
- Thread starter rvictor
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A common difference I’ve seen from various sources is about 1/2 range for a typical trip, 1/4-ish for grades. Here are some notes I’ve putting together to help me decide if I could tolerate the BEV instead of the Harvester:
BEV, 125 kWH battery, 350 mile range
Not towing:
350 miles at 2.8 mi/kWh, 10% is 35 miles, 20% to 80% adds 210 miles, 10% to 90% adds 280 miles
Towing:
175 miles at 1.4 mi/kWh, 10% is 17.5 miles, 20% to 80% adds 105 miles, 10% to 90% adds 140 miles
Towing steep grades:
87.5 miles at 0.7 mi/kWh, 10% is 8.8 miles, 20% to 80% adds 52.5 miles, 10% to 90% adds 140 miles
Climbing the Ike takes 9% of the battery
Harvester, 65 kW battery 150 mile range, 15 gallon gas tank 350 mile range
150 miles using 65 kWh is 2.3 mi/kWh, 10% is 15 miles, 20% to 80% is 90 miles, 10% to 90% is 120 miles
1/2 for towing is 75 miles or 1.15 mi/kWh, 10% is 7.5 miles, 20% to 80% is 45 miles, 10% to 90% is 60 miles
1/4 for towing steep grades is 37.5 miles or 0.6 mi/kWh, 10% is 4 miles, 20% to 80% is 22 miles, 10% to 90% is 30 miles
Climbing the Ike takes 20% of the battery
350 miles using 15 gallons of gas is 23.3 mpg, 11.7 when towing, 5.8 towing up a steep grade
Climbing the Ike takes 1.4 gallons
BEV, 125 kWH battery, 350 mile range
Not towing:
350 miles at 2.8 mi/kWh, 10% is 35 miles, 20% to 80% adds 210 miles, 10% to 90% adds 280 miles
Towing:
175 miles at 1.4 mi/kWh, 10% is 17.5 miles, 20% to 80% adds 105 miles, 10% to 90% adds 140 miles
Towing steep grades:
87.5 miles at 0.7 mi/kWh, 10% is 8.8 miles, 20% to 80% adds 52.5 miles, 10% to 90% adds 140 miles
Climbing the Ike takes 9% of the battery
Harvester, 65 kW battery 150 mile range, 15 gallon gas tank 350 mile range
150 miles using 65 kWh is 2.3 mi/kWh, 10% is 15 miles, 20% to 80% is 90 miles, 10% to 90% is 120 miles
1/2 for towing is 75 miles or 1.15 mi/kWh, 10% is 7.5 miles, 20% to 80% is 45 miles, 10% to 90% is 60 miles
1/4 for towing steep grades is 37.5 miles or 0.6 mi/kWh, 10% is 4 miles, 20% to 80% is 22 miles, 10% to 90% is 30 miles
Climbing the Ike takes 20% of the battery
350 miles using 15 gallons of gas is 23.3 mpg, 11.7 when towing, 5.8 towing up a steep grade
Climbing the Ike takes 1.4 gallons
Thanks for the insight! Do you know how long it would take to charge the battery on generator from 20% to 80%? Would love to know if you can use the generator while towing or if the demand is too great on the battery pack
Funny you should ask, ...
Charging from the generator is a misconception of a sort. The Harvester software should ensure that you never drain the battery to zero. The generator will not be big enough to provide full power without being way to big and heavy. Look at the Ramcharger and it's V6 Pentastar.
The Scout's generator will be big enough to provide power in level driving (takes very little power) and put some charge back into the battery. When you need extra power for acceleration or grades the battery adds the rest. I'm simplifying because of course at times you will run all EV. An easy way to think of it is that the battery provides the motive power and the generator kicks in as needed to keep the battery at a decent SOC. So yes, you're using the generator as you drive, towing or not, and can gas-and-go forever. Such is the hope and apparent promise.
Anything about charging time is speculation until we know the Scout's charging curve. I've put some guesses together taking from the Chevy Silverado EV. It has a 400V architecture with the battery split in two portions that can charge in parallel, it can accept 350kW input. For simplicity assume both the BEV and Harvester have a charging curve similar to the Chevy Silverado EV in terms of charge rate versus state of charge. The time will of course be different because of different battery sizes. Bigger batteries take more kWh for each percent state of charge.
Simplified Chevy Silverado EV Curve
350 kW for 0% to 30%
linear decline to 200 kW at 75%
linear decline to 90 kW at 85%
linear decline to 40 kW at 100%
Of course the guesses below will take less time if you stop more often and charge in the better part of the curve, e.g. 10-50% or 20-60% or some such. I don't guarantee the math below is perfect. Reasonably confident but I'm still putting this together.
BEV
Start a 300 mile towing day at 100%, the full day takes 170% of the battery, so recharge 70% plus whatever you want to end the day with.
Charging 20% to 80%
Drive 100% to 20% is 140 miles
Charge 20% to 80% takes 17 minutes with 350 kW, 30 minutes with 150 kW
Drive 80% to 20% brings it to 245 miles
Charge 20% to 80% takes 17 minutes with 350 kW, 30 minutes with 150 kW
Drive 55 miles to the end uses 31% leaving 50%
Total charge time 34 minutes with 350 kW, an hour with 150 kW
Charging 10% to 90%
Drive 100% to 10% is 157 miles
Charge 10% to 90% takes 27 minutes with 350 kW, 43 minutes with 150 kW
Drive 90% to 10% brings it to 297 miles, call it done
Total charge time 27 minutes with 350 kW, 43 minutes with 150 kW, but you’re left at only 10%
Harvester
Start a 300 mile towing day at 100%, use the battery down to 20% then use the Harvester to maintain the battery at 20%, ignore draw uphill and regen downhill for simplicity.
No external charging:
100% to 20% is 60 miles, the remaining 240 miles takes 20.5 gallons of gas, overall average of 14.6 mpg
Charge to 80% at 150 miles:
Drive 100% to 20% is 80% use, 52 kWh, 60 miles
Drive 90 miles to 150 takes 7.7 gallons of gas
Charge 20% to 80% takes 9 minutes with 350 kW, 16 minutes with 150 kW
The same for the second 150 miles
15.4 gallons total, overall average of 19.5 mpg, charge time total 18 minutes with 350 kW, 32 minutes with 150 kW
Yeah these Harvester charge times seem really fast, remember the battery is 1/2 that of the BEV. And they depend on finding available pull through chargers when wanted for no unhitching overhead. The numbers come from a spreadsheet that I won't swear by yet. And again is all speculation without a real charging curve.
Charging from the generator is a misconception of a sort. The Harvester software should ensure that you never drain the battery to zero. The generator will not be big enough to provide full power without being way to big and heavy. Look at the Ramcharger and it's V6 Pentastar.
The Scout's generator will be big enough to provide power in level driving (takes very little power) and put some charge back into the battery. When you need extra power for acceleration or grades the battery adds the rest. I'm simplifying because of course at times you will run all EV. An easy way to think of it is that the battery provides the motive power and the generator kicks in as needed to keep the battery at a decent SOC. So yes, you're using the generator as you drive, towing or not, and can gas-and-go forever. Such is the hope and apparent promise.
Anything about charging time is speculation until we know the Scout's charging curve. I've put some guesses together taking from the Chevy Silverado EV. It has a 400V architecture with the battery split in two portions that can charge in parallel, it can accept 350kW input. For simplicity assume both the BEV and Harvester have a charging curve similar to the Chevy Silverado EV in terms of charge rate versus state of charge. The time will of course be different because of different battery sizes. Bigger batteries take more kWh for each percent state of charge.
Simplified Chevy Silverado EV Curve
350 kW for 0% to 30%
linear decline to 200 kW at 75%
linear decline to 90 kW at 85%
linear decline to 40 kW at 100%
Of course the guesses below will take less time if you stop more often and charge in the better part of the curve, e.g. 10-50% or 20-60% or some such. I don't guarantee the math below is perfect. Reasonably confident but I'm still putting this together.
BEV
Start a 300 mile towing day at 100%, the full day takes 170% of the battery, so recharge 70% plus whatever you want to end the day with.
Charging 20% to 80%
Drive 100% to 20% is 140 miles
Charge 20% to 80% takes 17 minutes with 350 kW, 30 minutes with 150 kW
Drive 80% to 20% brings it to 245 miles
Charge 20% to 80% takes 17 minutes with 350 kW, 30 minutes with 150 kW
Drive 55 miles to the end uses 31% leaving 50%
Total charge time 34 minutes with 350 kW, an hour with 150 kW
Charging 10% to 90%
Drive 100% to 10% is 157 miles
Charge 10% to 90% takes 27 minutes with 350 kW, 43 minutes with 150 kW
Drive 90% to 10% brings it to 297 miles, call it done
Total charge time 27 minutes with 350 kW, 43 minutes with 150 kW, but you’re left at only 10%
Harvester
Start a 300 mile towing day at 100%, use the battery down to 20% then use the Harvester to maintain the battery at 20%, ignore draw uphill and regen downhill for simplicity.
No external charging:
100% to 20% is 60 miles, the remaining 240 miles takes 20.5 gallons of gas, overall average of 14.6 mpg
Charge to 80% at 150 miles:
Drive 100% to 20% is 80% use, 52 kWh, 60 miles
Drive 90 miles to 150 takes 7.7 gallons of gas
Charge 20% to 80% takes 9 minutes with 350 kW, 16 minutes with 150 kW
The same for the second 150 miles
15.4 gallons total, overall average of 19.5 mpg, charge time total 18 minutes with 350 kW, 32 minutes with 150 kW
Yeah these Harvester charge times seem really fast, remember the battery is 1/2 that of the BEV. And they depend on finding available pull through chargers when wanted for no unhitching overhead. The numbers come from a spreadsheet that I won't swear by yet. And again is all speculation without a real charging curve.
They have not published details about the generator, so there is not enough information available to answer your questions. My best guess is that the Harvester will be a less powerful version of the 2026 RAMcharger. If you want details about how the system will work, I suggest watching one of the YouTube videos with an Engineer talking about the system (like this one:
Welcome. There are lots of discussions on towing. If you use the search icon and type towing you’ll likely find a couple good hours of reading -mostly speculation but that’s what this forum is about
I think telling someone you can gas and go forever at this point and time is a little misleading. SM has not officially described how the power sources will operate. Those wanting Harvester and want to drive it like an ICE can keep telling themselves it’s gas and go forever but I wouldn’t believe it until Scout officially states it. Just my personal opinion as I’d hate to see new forum members disappointed if SM says otherwise down the road
I mean it's all speculation on this forum unless an engineer or architect confirms it on a public forum. Was kinda wondering the range on towing something that isn't 100% of the vehicles tow capacity. Would like to see the charging output capacity of that generator. Hopefully it's a gen set from either CAT or Generac. I think a Honda gen set is still too weak to charge a EV battery pack while towing.
Fair enough not formally announced, but …
From the Jay Leno interview, quotes from the transcript with corrections as best I could.
Plus some non-gas-and-go tidbits that I caught this time.
I’ll go through the much longer Motor Trend interview to see if more is said.
Scott Keogh at 2:30: … we put on the rear axle a really smart high output four-cylinder engine that's going to give you the ability to charge the battery so the axles will spin on the battery the engine will do its job of keeping the battery charged …
— keep the battery charged, i.e the battery never goes to zero, get low on gas just buy more gas —
Scott Keogh at 3:35: … it’s about a 15 gallon tank …
— found that one —
Scott Keogh at 4:25: … it (the range extender) automatically it kicks in, to simplify it you'll be able to make three choices if you want, I want to go pure EV, I got home charging in my house I can go 150 miles great you can go pure EV, I want to go hybrid mode which mixes the both and optimizes to get maximum range, and then even have a heavy duty mode which will call in the engine heavier this would be for towing and heavier applications …
— “optimizes the range” means 500 miles without stopping, not that the battery will be at zero at 500 miles, the gas tank will be empty, the battery has been kept at some appropriate SOC from 150 to 500 —
Scott Keogh at 4:50: … look on the electric vehicle on the truck the Terra here up to 10,000 lbs of towing so real deal payload 2,000 lb, on the Traveler a little bit less about 7,000 lbs, when we get to the range extender both of them will able to do about 5,000 lbs …
— boo hoo, I remembered this phrase wrong, hope the Terra is way better than 5000! —
Jay Leno at 13:40: … I'm an old school guy I can just get in this and just run it on gas, just pretending it's a gas engine and the two will work side by side …
Followed by Scott: … 100%. And how it's designed is we've designed it for this thing to always hold a steady state, a steady state in our definition on a highway 70 miles per hour, so that's the combination of the battery and the gas working together when you're not able to hold the steady state it's going to say dear Jay time to go get gas, by the way just like you would do in a gasoline car so you go get gas it holds that steady state …
Scott Keogh at 14:50: … in fact even to the extreme scenario but let's say you're out camping and whatever happens the actual gas engine can also continuously be charging the batteries, let's say you're out on the campsite you can use that time to actually be even charging the battery, so it's got a lot of versatile back and forth which is really cool …
Scott Keogh at 16:35: … we will have an air suspension on this vehicle, so one will have a standard setup and then as an option we'll have an air suspension as well …
From the Jay Leno interview, quotes from the transcript with corrections as best I could.
Plus some non-gas-and-go tidbits that I caught this time.
I’ll go through the much longer Motor Trend interview to see if more is said.
Scott Keogh at 2:30: … we put on the rear axle a really smart high output four-cylinder engine that's going to give you the ability to charge the battery so the axles will spin on the battery the engine will do its job of keeping the battery charged …
— keep the battery charged, i.e the battery never goes to zero, get low on gas just buy more gas —
Scott Keogh at 3:35: … it’s about a 15 gallon tank …
— found that one —
Scott Keogh at 4:25: … it (the range extender) automatically it kicks in, to simplify it you'll be able to make three choices if you want, I want to go pure EV, I got home charging in my house I can go 150 miles great you can go pure EV, I want to go hybrid mode which mixes the both and optimizes to get maximum range, and then even have a heavy duty mode which will call in the engine heavier this would be for towing and heavier applications …
— “optimizes the range” means 500 miles without stopping, not that the battery will be at zero at 500 miles, the gas tank will be empty, the battery has been kept at some appropriate SOC from 150 to 500 —
Scott Keogh at 4:50: … look on the electric vehicle on the truck the Terra here up to 10,000 lbs of towing so real deal payload 2,000 lb, on the Traveler a little bit less about 7,000 lbs, when we get to the range extender both of them will able to do about 5,000 lbs …
— boo hoo, I remembered this phrase wrong, hope the Terra is way better than 5000! —
Jay Leno at 13:40: … I'm an old school guy I can just get in this and just run it on gas, just pretending it's a gas engine and the two will work side by side …
Followed by Scott: … 100%. And how it's designed is we've designed it for this thing to always hold a steady state, a steady state in our definition on a highway 70 miles per hour, so that's the combination of the battery and the gas working together when you're not able to hold the steady state it's going to say dear Jay time to go get gas, by the way just like you would do in a gasoline car so you go get gas it holds that steady state …
Scott Keogh at 14:50: … in fact even to the extreme scenario but let's say you're out camping and whatever happens the actual gas engine can also continuously be charging the batteries, let's say you're out on the campsite you can use that time to actually be even charging the battery, so it's got a lot of versatile back and forth which is really cool …
Scott Keogh at 16:35: … we will have an air suspension on this vehicle, so one will have a standard setup and then as an option we'll have an air suspension as well …
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Is Scott Keogh in a high profile public interview good enough?
I'm wondering about towing performance at various weights also. There is an Out of Spec Reviews towing video though that showed in their experience drag is by far the biggest impact on level ground, weight matters more on grades than it did on the flat (gathering gravitational potential energy) but the drag will be the same if the speed is the same. Not clear yet the relative balance between drag and PE on grades.
The genset will not be a third party component. The ICE will be a modified VWG 4 cylinder engine, who knows where the generator part will come from.
There are EREV spec's that have not been finalized
There are fuel spec's that have not been finalized
There are towing spec's that have not been finalized
There are battery spec's that have not been finalized
There are GVWR's that have not been finalized
There is a coefficient of drag for the vehicle that we don't know
There are considerations for efficiency based on wheels and tires that we don't know
Drivers can't control the weather or temperature or road conditions
Drivers attach accessories to the outside of their vehicles, creating more drag
Each driver will tow trailers with different GVWRs, and different trailering profiles, creating different amounts of drag
All of this will be speculation until the timing is right for Scout to publish production specs. Then real-world testing will begin with production vehicles. Then we will start to see the first trucks doing actual "truck stuff" that can be measured across a myriad of driving situations. Until production vehicles are ready with actual specs, the real-world testing will have to wait a bit. Reservations holders will be able to make much more informed decisions about which truck or which configuration (EREV or BEV) might be right for them with published specs. Until then, yes, its all speculative and based on Scout's targets.
FOR REFERENCE:
Right now (in the PURE EV truck world), there are a couple of trucks with a massive battery packs - The Chevy Silverado EV offers a 215kWh battery pack that weighs just under 3,000lbs. The curb weight of the Silverado is 8,532lbs. Its published range is close to 450 miles, and the Fast Lane Truck pulled a 6,000lb trailer behind it for 240 miles on a full charge.
Compare the Silverado to the vehicle with the closest-sized battery pack in an EV truck - the HUMMER. It offers a 212kWh battery pack that weighs about the same as the Silverado EV, BUT in real world tests towing about the same weight (6,000lbs) as the Silverado EV, the Hummer gets ~140 miles on a full charge... 100 less miles!
The point of all of this is that real-world testing will occur over time highlighting use cases that may apply to certain Scout reservation holders, helping to inform their decisions. Looking at variables, there are a lot trade-offs when building an "off-road capable EV truck". Weight being a big factor, size being another, ground clearance and height being another, suspension being another, battery protection, serviceability, wheels & tires, etc. etc. etc. - all of which also impact COST.
The above two trucks are not inexpensive (~$100K'ish). Scout is threading the needle on capability and value at their targeted price range.
There are fuel spec's that have not been finalized
There are towing spec's that have not been finalized
There are battery spec's that have not been finalized
There are GVWR's that have not been finalized
There is a coefficient of drag for the vehicle that we don't know
There are considerations for efficiency based on wheels and tires that we don't know
Drivers can't control the weather or temperature or road conditions
Drivers attach accessories to the outside of their vehicles, creating more drag
Each driver will tow trailers with different GVWRs, and different trailering profiles, creating different amounts of drag
All of this will be speculation until the timing is right for Scout to publish production specs. Then real-world testing will begin with production vehicles. Then we will start to see the first trucks doing actual "truck stuff" that can be measured across a myriad of driving situations. Until production vehicles are ready with actual specs, the real-world testing will have to wait a bit. Reservations holders will be able to make much more informed decisions about which truck or which configuration (EREV or BEV) might be right for them with published specs. Until then, yes, its all speculative and based on Scout's targets.
FOR REFERENCE:
Right now (in the PURE EV truck world), there are a couple of trucks with a massive battery packs - The Chevy Silverado EV offers a 215kWh battery pack that weighs just under 3,000lbs. The curb weight of the Silverado is 8,532lbs. Its published range is close to 450 miles, and the Fast Lane Truck pulled a 6,000lb trailer behind it for 240 miles on a full charge.
Compare the Silverado to the vehicle with the closest-sized battery pack in an EV truck - the HUMMER. It offers a 212kWh battery pack that weighs about the same as the Silverado EV, BUT in real world tests towing about the same weight (6,000lbs) as the Silverado EV, the Hummer gets ~140 miles on a full charge... 100 less miles!
The point of all of this is that real-world testing will occur over time highlighting use cases that may apply to certain Scout reservation holders, helping to inform their decisions. Looking at variables, there are a lot trade-offs when building an "off-road capable EV truck". Weight being a big factor, size being another, ground clearance and height being another, suspension being another, battery protection, serviceability, wheels & tires, etc. etc. etc. - all of which also impact COST.
The above two trucks are not inexpensive (~$100K'ish). Scout is threading the needle on capability and value at their targeted price range.
️
Yes I would count on 50% of rated range when towing a typical trailer. Better with a low pop up style trailer.
This is not a defect. My F150 gas burner gets half the range towing my travel trailer.
This is not a defect. My F150 gas burner gets half the range towing my travel trailer.
I vibe with your math! I think you're implying that when towing you're looking at about 175 miles of gas range, and 75 miles of electric range-- so a theoretical maximum of 250 miles towing, likely filling up at the 200 mile mark or just before.. Doesn't seem to bad to me. Towing my 27' Airstream with my Ram 1500 with the 5.7l and a 4.10 rear axle and a 33 gallon tank.. I was seeing essentially exactly that figure. Sometimes 250 if dealing with circumstances like coming down I-70 into Denver where you're hypermiling that whole stretch.
All that to say, I'd be perfectly happy with those figures when towing, but wouldn't want recede too much from those figures since fueling the Terra is going to be a bit more complicated to achieve that range.
Welcome!
Our take would be to stop a little more often to avoid the complication. Try to start with a full battery, driving in a mode where the battery stays above say 30%. It is not clear how much granularity Scout will provide on that. Once the Harvester starts being used to maintain the battery just buy gas as needed. We swap drivers at about 125 mile intervals, so topping up with gas then is not an issue. Maybe recharge the battery if convenient, like at a lunch stop.
Interesting, okay I guess I assumed the harvester wouldn't be able to push enough power to maintain battery level when towing, or maybe you're thinking it would just slowly chip away at the 30% buffer?
Makes me wonder if you ran in "hybrid" mode the whole time if you could hit 200 mile stops over a 600 mile distance? Can't wait to understand the full specs in the future!
It might not take as large an engine and generator as you think. This is all speculation based on limited information of course. Yep, it will be great when we get real numbers from testing.
In the Motor Trend interview Scott Keogh said the Harvester battery will be about 60 to 70-ish kWh, let’s use 65. In the Jay Leno interview (maybe Motor Trend?) he said the range estimates were goals for doing 70 mph on the highway. Let’s be conservative and call it 60 mph when towing, the drag at 70 is 36% more than at 60.
75 miles at 60 mph is 1.25 hours. Using 65 kWh in 1.25 hours is a steady draw of 52 kW. A straight energy conversion of that is 70.7 hp. Double that for conversion losses, extra power to recharge the battery after grades, a 150 hp ICE might be adequate. Maybe enough to power a 100kW generator (136 hp) at peak output?
True. Ram is claiming 130kw from their 3.6 V6 for the Ramcharger, and Google says that's 280hp - 305hp-- but I'm not sure if HP is calculated differently when removing the transmission from the equation? But yeah I've been waiting for actual test units to start rolling for the Ramcharger so we can get some actual answers to this stuff and it's driving me nuts waiting!
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