Shopping for a “new” BEV while waiting for the Scout Traveler BEV.

[Gottesacker]

She is frustrated with the way car manufacturers are installing hardware (increasing R&D and hardware cost), passing cost on to the customer and then charging a second time (subscription) for its use. She’s already annoyed with Ford for making the non-optional option of the BlueCruise hardware bump up the cost of our Mustang and then charging a subscription for it (and integrated navigation and a few other things). We’ve let the trial expire; no point in falling for the sunken costs fallacy.

Manufacturers shouldn't be making those of us who don’t want all that subsidize it for those who do. Vehicles without that hardware could easily be $2500-$5k cheaper if they only charged the people who wanted it instead of distributing the costs to everyone. Even if we don’t subscribe to yet another “only $15/mo,” we’re still paying for it. At that point, we’d rather not even buy the vehicle.

Hoping Scout doesn’t do it this way.

I have to agree. I have zero desire in paying for a subscription for a service when the hardware is there and should just work.

 

[R1TVT]

Manufacturers shouldn't be making those of us who don’t want all that subsidize it for those who do.

I get that. My response was only in relation to Rivan's Connect+ subscription option. Maybe I should have posted the features that are included as part of their "STANDARD" offering for everyone.

If you don't subscribe to Connect + I don't see how you are subsidizing the cost of something like WiFi in your truck (for example) that others are paying for - you are not paying the subscription fee. I do understand your point about R&D and the HW required for some of the features and "baked-in" production costs, but as an OEM you need to compete with others in your category. Rivian would be foolish not to enable these features and not to provide capabilities on par with other competitors, because there are a lot of buyers that will want them, and will be willing to pay a reasonable fee to enable them.

Not everyone is the same, so at least they have provided some degree of optionality around choosing whether or not you may want to pay for certain things. Personally, I work from my truck at least once a week, travel with kids jumping on WiFi, and use video streaming from time to time. In my case, having really good in-truck WiFi is a low-cost item for the derived value it provides at $149/yr. I could probably expense it, but don't.

These are the standard items that are included (without the subscription):

 

[Gottesacker]

Not everyone is the same, so at least they have provided some degree of optionality around choosing whether or not you may want to pay for certain things. Personally, I work from my truck at least once a week, travel with kids jumping on WiFi, and use video streaming from time to time. In my case, having really good in-truck WiFi is a low-cost item for the derived value it provides at $149/yr. I could probably expense it, but don't.

Is the WiFi really faster than hot spotting off your phone? We just traveled from Texas to Colorado, South Dakota, Nebraska, and back and the kids just hotspot off our phones. Does the in-car WiFi have better reception? I've just never understood how it's worth paying another phone line essentially.

 

[R1TVT]

Is the WiFi really faster than hot spotting off your phone? We just traveled from Texas to Colorado, South Dakota, Nebraska, and back and the kids just hotspot off our phones. Does the in-car WiFi have better reception? I've just never understood how it's worth paying another phone line essentially.

Depends on many variables & coverage areas. Personally, I get added coverage, in-truck video (PLUS the other Connect+ features beyond WiFi + streaming). Some may not find value in what others find value in, and that is fine - there's definitely no mandate to subscribe. That would piss me off! LOL.

 

[strider]

If you don't subscribe to Connect + I don't see how you are subsidizing the cost of something like WiFi in your truck (for example) that others are paying for - you are not paying the subscription fee. I do understand your point about R&D and the HW required for some of the features and "baked-in" production costs, but as an OEM you need to compete with others in your category. Rivian would be foolish not to enable these features and not to provide capabilities on par with other competitors, because there are a lot of buyers that will want them, and will be willing to pay a reasonable fee to enable them.

A bit of a thread hijack but the biggest culprit here is all this self-driving garbage. 26 cameras, radars, and lidar sensors are expensive, I have no desire to use them, yet they are installed on every vehicle so I have to pay for the hardware. Then I have to pay again to use the self driving software. I'm looking at you, Tesla.

On the connectivity side, I understand paying a nominal fee for data because the OEM has to pay AT&T or Verizon for that connectivity along with maintaining their own infrastructure to support it, etc. Just don't go down the BMW route of making people pay for things that are already in their car like the seat heaters.....

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

Every manufacturer I’ve interacted with has used AT&T for their cell connection (and thus WiFi hotspot). That’s a no-go for me; their service is terrible in the places I go.

A bit of a thread hijack but the biggest culprit here is all this self-driving garbage. 26 cameras, radars, and lidar sensors are expensive, I have no desire to use them, yet they are installed on every vehicle so I have to pay for the hardware. Then I have to pay again to use the self driving software. I'm looking at you, Tesla.

This. I don’t want the ai garbage and I don’t want the self-driving garbage. To get the vehicle we wanted when shopping for the Mustang (extended range, AWD), we were forced to pay for the BlueCruise hardware and a 3-year “trial." I think it was an additional $2500. We let the subscription expire. It’s simply not worth the cost. We got the Lightning at such a discount that the BlueCruise hardware was basically free. We never purchased a subscription. The Silverado has its own SuperCruise hardware; I would have preferred one without it, but used Work Trucks with the range I wanted were nearly impossible to find. We will not purchase a subscription.

The Lucid DreamDrive2 Pro is an extra $6750, and absolutely not worth the cost. But it’s an upfront added cost only for those who want it. And it doesn’t have a subscription fee. That’s the right model. If someone wants it, they should pay the full price for it.

 

[R1TVT]

A bit of a thread hijack but the biggest culprit here is all this self-driving garbage. 26 cameras, radars, and lidar sensors are expensive, I have no desire to use them, yet they are installed on every vehicle so I have to pay for the hardware. Then I have to pay again to use the self driving software. I'm looking at you, Tesla.

On the connectivity side, I understand paying a nominal fee for data because the OEM has to pay AT&T or Verizon for that connectivity along with maintaining their own infrastructure to support it, etc. Just don't go down the BMW route of making people pay for things that are already in their car like the seat heaters.....

Totally get that - but also important to keep in mind that many of the HW items are also used for safety and convenience features (in isolation from FSD also). Things like back up warning, cross traffic, emergency stopping, alarms, etc.

We live in a free market society where OEM's need to make a profit and buyers vote with their hard-earned $$$ (or they will shop for a different truck or SUV if they feel like they are going to be gouged). The trick for Scout will be finding the balance point that drives orders and sticking to their pricing targets, while providing strong value.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

We’ve put almost 10k miles on the Chevrolet Silverado EV, including an almost 4700 mile road trip to Canada and back.

Here is a current list of “likes and dislikes.”

Likes:

• A high towing capacity
• Its longer range gives us more options
• It has the 240 Volt, 30 Amp output as any decent BEV truck will have
• It has physical buttons to control the HVAC, including physical controls of the vents.
• The seat heating and cooling is great.

Dislikes:

• The UI is not well-designed.
• I do not like the built-in Android Automotive and would much prefer Android Auto. As soon as I get some time, I’ll try to side-load an app that enables bypassing this.
• It’s still missing the Start/Stop button. I haven’t had time to implement my fix.
• There is no "Start Charging Now" button in the app. In fact, the GM mobile app API is incapable of allowing such a thing because the vehicle firmware does not allow remote “Charge Now” activation. This is just really, really dumb.
• The app does not allow setting a charge schedule—this must be done from inside the vehicle.
• The seats are not as comfortable as a high-end truck seats should be.
• My partner finds it to be ugly.
• My partner finds it to be more difficult to drive in a city.

 

[J Alynn]

We’ve put almost 10k miles on the Chevrolet Silverado EV, including an almost 4700 mile road trip to Canada and back.

Here is a current list of “likes and dislikes.”

Likes:

• A high towing capacity
• Its longer range gives us more options
• It has the 240 Volt, 30 Amp output as any decent BEV truck will have
• It has physical buttons to control the HVAC, including physical controls of the vents.
• The seat heating and cooling is great.

Dislikes:

• The UI is not well-designed.
• I do not like the built-in Android Automotive and would much prefer Android Auto. As soon as I get some time, I’ll try to side-load an app that enables bypassing this.
• It’s still missing the Start/Stop button. I haven’t had time to implement my fix.
• There is no "Start Charging Now" button in the app. In fact, the GM mobile app API is incapable of allowing such a thing because the vehicle firmware does not allow remote “Charge Now” activation. This is just really, really dumb.
• The app does not allow setting a charge schedule—this must be done from inside the vehicle.
• The seats are not as comfortable as a high-end truck seats should be.
• My partner finds it to be ugly.
• My partner finds it to be more difficult to drive in a city.

So you can’t schedule charging via an app? How did that even get decided? That seems crazy

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

So you can’t schedule charging via an app? How did that even get decided? That seems crazy

I really don’t know. It’s like GM took the least experienced truck people and put them in charge of truck design and took the least experienced EV people and put them in charge of the UI/UX design. And then each of those teams asked AI to generate a solution to their problem.

 

[J Alynn]

I really don’t know. It’s like GM took the least experienced truck people and put them in charge of truck design and took the least experienced EV people and put them in charge of the UI/UX design. And then each of those teams asked AI to generate a solution to their problem.

Really sorry to hear that. I assumed even early into our new life of EV ownership that those were just standard features for EV’s. I’ll presume SM isn’t going to forget that but just in case -please be sure to have EV charging accessible for apps to control nearly all, if not all functions. I realize phone can’t plug it in but beyond that all battery management should be accessible via app

 

[strider]

Really sorry to hear that. I assumed even early into our new life of EV ownership that those were just standard features for EV’s. I’ll presume SM isn’t going to forget that but just in case -please be sure to have EV charging accessible for apps to control nearly all, if not all functions. I realize phone can’t plug it in but beyond that all battery management should be accessible via app

I think this is legacy automaker disease. Tesla really set the bar here and Rivian followed. The Tesla app is incredibly responsive, super powerful, and completely free.

It seems like GM took their clunky, slow, and expensive OnStar system (designed for very infrequent use) and tried to build a vehicle management app on top of it. It is the one thing I am weary about getting my son an Equinox. He will want to get up in the morning and precondition the car while he is getting ready for school, or precondition when he is getting ready to leave swim practice, adjust charge settings as his car will be sitting under a carport next to our shop (previous owners had an RV so there's a14-50 already on the outside wall) so it's a bit of a walk out there, etc.

Just shows the mindset. Tesla (and Rivian and I assume Lucid) are tech companies that build cars. GM, Ford, etc are car companies that build tech. I like the physical interface in the Equinox over my Tesla but it sounds like the app tech isn't there yet.

All that to say, I have heard good things about Rivian in this area so assuming Scout uses that tech we should be fine.