More lift, less lift, or just right.

[Mousehunter]

I kind of am afraid to post this poll, as I have become well aware that there are people looking at the Scout from many backgrounds and with many different expectations. I have read quite a few posts illustrating a fear of height. On the flip side, the Scout will most likely be lower than most of my current vehicles.

Secondly - I understand that while there are reasons for more lift, the specific reasons people might want it will very. While many might just like the looks, I do think it should have a purpose as well. Yes, it can allow larger tires. Yes it can increase the break angles. But to me height for the sake of height is kind of questionable. I like height that can add suspension travel. Budget body lifts might be fine for some, but they seem to have far less utility than an actual well designed lift.

 

[CarTechGeek]

I wouldn't be surprised if the base Truck has less lift. Like the difference between Base Bronco/Wrangler and extra lift on their big tire packages. IIRC they were showing them with the 35" tire package.

Also bear in mind that ranges you see targeted are likely going to be for the base 31"-32" tire package. The 35" tires will get less range, and if you lift more and fit even bigger tires, you will get even less range.

 

[ID_ENG]

My big concern with the ride height is the mention of disconnecting sway bar. The wheel well with those 35"s seemed like it wouldn't have enough clearance for the wheel travel.

 

[Logan]

Its hard to tell based on what we've seen so far. As we're only seeing the variants with 35in tires.

I used to be relatively "into" offroading (ZJ with 3in lift and 31's, father had a TJ with 3in lift and 33's). I cared more about COG, and articulation, than height.

As is, the 35in tires on the models shown to me, looked "about right" in terms of presence/stance.

Personally, my needs these days are less extreme. I'm not looking for a "extremely capable" vehicle (ie, not a rock crawler). Instead, I'm looking for something more like my ZJ. Something that I can drive on "anything that is supposed to be a road", even in pretty poor conditions. And my desire to fit the Traveler in my garage means I'm likely looking at < 35in tires anyway, as I don't want to use the external tire carrier to save some OAL. And 33in tires are MORE than capable enough for what I'm envisioning I need.

I watched some video where they discussed having a "road optimized" suspension" an "offroad optimized" suspension, and then an air suspension offering. And I imagine that the "road optimized" variants will have smallerish tires, and a lower ride height. And what we have seen so far is more or less the offroad package (or close to it).

 

[Mousehunter]

Funny, when I look at it - I tend to think it is the road option... It is about the same height of my 1/2 ton Chevy was. Worse vehicle mistake I ever made. Sold in while it was still under warranty (it had way too much warranty work). Was not paying attention to the axle - it did not have any form of traction control, it spun out at every stop sign I turned at. Did not appreciate the almost lowered look. While I do like extend cabs - I also realized that they are NOT family vehicles. Getting kids into the back seat in a parking lot was nearly impossible. Honestly it looks about the same height of my previous Tahoe - which while 4x4, was not what I considered an off road vehicle. It was simply the height of a 4x4 Tahoe.

 

[Logan]

To me its more the ground clearance. I don't think it looks all that tall either. But over a foot of ground clearance for a stock vehicle is pretty rare.

Also, AT tires are generally the "offroad option". Rivians come stock with all season tires, and you can option all terrain tires with the offroad package. I can't think of many vehicles that come stock with tires more aggressive than 35in all terrains.

 

[Mousehunter]

Not sure what Jeep is putting on stock anymore - but IIRC, stock on the Rubicon was 33". With gas, you almost wanted a regear to pull the 35" tires. Diesel did not notice the difference. Torque is king.

 

[speedrye]

If 35" tires give me 12" of ground clearance with decent travel up front, (minus the pumpkin), I don't see a need to lift it. With the independent front, I want to keep the arms at their ideal geometry and not limit my down-travel by lifting it. So long as it has factory frame mounting points for sliders, and some beefier skids, I'll be fine. I've tried all-terrains and they just don't work for me, so I'll definitely be running more aggressive mud-terrains.

I am curious what they do for a winch. I can't see beefing up the 12v system for such a heavy draw, so what do they do? A low-amp 800v winch? Haha, probably not.

 

[Mousehunter]

we are assuming this will use a 12v aux system... I thought some builders were already discussing going to 48v to cut the amps down.

 

[speedrye]

we are assuming this will use a 12v aux system... I thought some builders were already discussing going to 48v to cut the amps down.

That makes customization really hard if you're adding comms, lighting, upgraded stereo, etc without making your own 12v system. If we're just talking about for winching, a higher voltage would make a LOT of sense since the high-amp draw doesn't play well with any 12v systems.

 

[Mousehunter]

You would need to go the golf cart route and add a small 12v transformer - should work for little stuff. But serious lights and the winch would require a bit of help from the aftermarket community.

 

[DustyRide]

I don't know the nuances of air spring adaptive dampeners, but it would be nice if they built the baseline from the factory to account for the tire size (or even better if you can adjust yourself).

That way, when it lowers for speed it considers the travel of 35's, but then raises when you actually need that articulation.

I drove a Range Rover with air springs and it was pretty cool to have it lower for entry, adjust higher when off-road, and then lower when hitting highway speeds (plus the option to hit the button and keep it high for mall crawling lol).

 

[Logan]

The small caveat with air springs, is usually you have LESS articulation at max height, rather than more.

FOr those that aren't "fluent in offroad", articulation basically means how much your wheels can move up and down. More is better, because as the trail gets rougher, your tires are able to remain on the ground and give traction/control.

So when you jack up the pressure in the air springs, you get more ground clearance under the vehicle, which is great at times for not hitting stuff/getting unstuck. But also, it usually provides less articulation (the springs don't "spring" as much anymore), and its also usually quite a bit less comfortable.

 

[Scoutsie]

The small caveat with air springs, is usually you have LESS articulation at max height, rather than more.

FOr those that aren't "fluent in offroad", articulation basically means how much your wheels can move up and down. More is better, because as the trail gets rougher, your tires are able to remain on the ground and give traction/control.

So when you jack up the pressure in the air springs, you get more ground clearance under the vehicle, which is great at times for not hitting stuff/getting unstuck. But also, it usually provides less articulation (the springs don't "spring" as much anymore), and its also usually quite a bit less comfortable.

Call me a luddite (you’d be correct), but isn’t that the job of the suspension anyhow? Are air springs in addition to or in place of whatever springs are in the suspension or is this the same thing? ?‍? Plz explain like I am eight years old?

 

[LastDayScout]

I am personally hoping you can drop the air springs to an entry/exit height. My old grand Cherokee had this feature. When put in park the suspension would drop. But, I would like the option to leave the suspension in a higher setting for flooding.

 

[Logan]

Call me a luddite (you’d be correct), but isn’t that the job of the suspension anyhow? Are air springs in addition to or in place of whatever springs are in the suspension or is this the same thing WHAT THE HELL MAN? ?‍?

Clarifying question. What exactly are you talking about being the job of the suspension?

AFAIK, the air springs take the place of whatever springs usually come (ie, steel coils). They are essentially/conceptually rubber bladders/air bags. The more air you put in them, the larger they become (raising the vehicle). But also, the more air you put in, the firmer they are, the less the squish. Which basically means at maximum ride height, the suspension doesn't move "up" anymore.

Articulation is basically "can your wheels follow the terrain". And really, really stiff springs don't allow that to happen, as the suspension doesn't compress.

This is what articulation looks like, from outside the vehicle. You can see the passenger front tire is stuffed up hard into the fender, and the driver side tire is "drooping" to stay in contact with the ground.

When the springs are really really stiff (like an air suspension at maximum ride height), the tire can't "stuff", because the springs are really, really firm. Like this. This is an articulation problem, and also a "its uncomfortable to ride over bumps when the springs aren't really acting like springs" problem.

You can see this here. Notice how that drivers side tire on the Cybertruck "should" be "stuffed" up there like on the jeep? Its not, because the suspension is too firm.

This guy talks about it some here.

 

[J Alynn]

Clarifying question. What exactly are you talking about being the job of the suspension?

AFAIK, the air springs take the place of whatever springs usually come (ie, steel coils). They are essentially/conceptually rubber bladders/air bags. The more air you put in them, the larger they become (raising the vehicle). But also, the more air you put in, the firmer they are, the less the squish. Which basically means at maximum ride height, the suspension doesn't move "up" anymore.

Articulation is basically "can your wheels follow the terrain". And really, really stiff springs don't allow that to happen, as the suspension doesn't compress.

This is what articulation looks like, from outside the vehicle. You can see the passenger front tire is stuffed up hard into the fender, and the driver side tire is "drooping" to stay in contact with the ground.

View attachment 3847


When the springs are really really stiff (like an air suspension at maximum ride height), the tire can't "stuff", because the springs are really, really firm. Like this. This is an articulation problem, and also a "its uncomfortable to ride over bumps when the springs aren't really acting like springs" problem.

You can see this here. Notice how that drivers side tire on the Cybertruck "should" be "stuffed" up there like on the jeep? Its not, because the suspension is too firm.

View attachment 3848


This guy talks about it some here.

Can you show this with another 4x4. I clawed my eyes out looking at that POS CT. Uuugghhhh!

 

[Scoutsie]

Clarifying question. What exactly are you talking about being the job of the suspension?

I’m meaning the springs that are part of each [suspension-Voltron] per wheel that absorb the [physics] when the car bounces around. Am I making this overly complicated because I don’t know what I’m talking about because I have both the imagine of my bike’s suspension fork and this diagram that I Googled in my head? ? Like this kind of stuff:

AFAIK, the air springs take the place of whatever springs usually come (ie, steel coils). They are essentially/conceptually rubber bladders/air bags. The more air you put in them, the larger they become (raising the vehicle). But also, the more air you put in, the firmer they are, the less the squish. Which basically means at maximum ride height, the suspension doesn't move "up" anymore.

Oh… so yes?

Articulation is basically "can your wheels follow the terrain". And really, really stiff springs don't allow that to happen, as the suspension doesn't compress.

This is what articulation looks like, from outside the vehicle. You can see the passenger front tire is stuffed up hard into the fender, and the driver side tire is "drooping" to stay in contact with the ground.

View attachment 3847

When the springs are really really stiff (like an air suspension at maximum ride height), the tire can't "stuff", because the springs are really, really firm. Like this. This is an articulation problem, and also a "its uncomfortable to ride over bumps when the springs aren't really acting like springs" problem.

Yeah… if I saw that, I’d think that something is broken or about to be broken.

You can see this here. Notice how that drivers side tire on the Cybertruck "should" be "stuffed" up there like on the jeep? Its not, because the suspension is too firm.

View attachment 3848


This guy talks about it some here.

So… the Cybertruck is doing it wrong or right? Aesthetically (in terms of the wheels and only the wheels), that looks right. ?

Thank you for explaining this and I’m sorry if I am not getting it. ??? I either read waaaaaay too much into an insignificant detail or not nearly enough.

 

[Scoutsie]

Okay! Visual learned over here looked at what air suspensions are, and I think I get it. I think the interchangeable use of air springs and air suspension threw me off and made me think these are different things when they’re each doing the same function, just doing it differently. I think?

 

[Chaparral]

So… the Cybertruck is doing it wrong or right? Aesthetically (in terms of the wheels and only the wheels), that looks right. ?

It doesn’t look like the Cybertruck has much articulation. The front passenger wheel came off the ground and rear driver side wheel has no traction. It would be better if the driver side front wheel lifted higher but it seems the springs are too stiff to allow it move further?