Harvester towing

[mbeadnell]

I would strongly suggest the harvester model towing more than 5k. This is going to be a deal breaker for most people and cause a lot of cancelled reservations. My opinion but I would not have announced something like this without all the details
In place to make a firm stance. This has created a lot of confusion and speculation and as a result many cancelled reservations. I would like to see the Terra at least able
To tow 7500 at minimum and the traveler at 5000k minimum. It makes no sense for both the tow the same with one able
To tow nearly 3k more on the pure ev models. This is just my suggestion. Keeping the price within the mentioned amount during announcement I hope is possible to have the towing range increased ( 7500 for Terra 5000 for traveler) that’s my suggestion and opinion.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

Air gets thicc when you go fast

At high enough velocity, this is true! Compression of the atmosphere becomes a thing for certain airplanes/jets below the speed of sound.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

Dont electric motors also have a weird efficiency ratio?

When I was in the commercial HVAC world an engineer told me that a if an electric motor was running at 100% load and another was running at 80% load, the one running at 80% uses 50% less energy or something like that.

I'm not as familiar with the load issues for electric motors, but that sounds like a type of motor not used by EVs.

 

[AlanL]

K.E. = 1/2 mV ^2

I was trying to consider total energy consumption over a significant drive, say at least 50 miles. The expenditure for drag is constant over the whole distance, linear with distance and squared with speed. The expenditure for K.E. is just to get up to speed, amortized over the whole distance would it not be negligible compared to that for drag? Am I missing something?

 

[cyure]

K.E. = 1/2 mV ^2

But that's without atmosphere.
Add atmosphere into the mix and you have to speed the particles up to at least the speed of the vehicle to move them out of the way.

Math

I literally picked my major in college because I don’t like math. I mean regular math sure, but whatever that is up there nope. Don’t like it. No thanks

 

[AlanL]

Math

I literally picked my major in college because I don’t like math. I mean regular math sure, but whatever that is up there nope. Don’t like it. No thanks

My favorite undergrad course was differential equations. A lot of interesting real world questions can be easily solved with them.

 

[cyure]

My favorite undergrad course was differential equations. A lot of interesting real world questions can be easily solved with them.

It’s awesome we have so many engineering types in here to pose and answer all these questions.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

I was trying to consider total energy consumption over a significant drive, say at least 50 miles. The expenditure for drag is constant over the whole distance, linear with distance and squared with speed. The expenditure for K.E. is just to get up to speed, amortized over the whole distance would it not be negligible compared to that for drag? Am I missing something?

I'm in the car right now. I'll lay it all the maths this evening.

 

[jonnygarner]

Hey how about this. The top of the trailer is a boat!

This Ridiculously Rare Vintage Fiberglass Camper Has A Roof That Turns Into A Boat - The Autopian

One of the rarest fiberglass campers is also the coolest. The Kom-Pak Sportsman trailer looks like a 1950s Ford and has a boat for a roof

www.theautopian.com

That is super fun. About the most impractical thing i can think of to operate, but looks damn cool!

 

[cyure]

That is super fun. About the most impractical thing i can think of to operate, but looks damn cool!

It totally does! And I love how the car matches the color.

 

[jonnygarner]

On another related towing/range note. Why do we not talk more about swapping batteries?

https://insideevs.com/news/760959/china-catl-battery-swap-choco-seb/

I can't imagine this is under consideration by ScoutMotors, but it seems like such a better way to solve range issues vs. ridiculously large and heavy battery packs. In my ideal world, I would maybe have a smaller battery in the car for everyday use that I can charge at home. Say around 50 to 100 kWh. And an slot for battery expansion that I could slot in a battery from a swap station for long-range towing trips.

 

[J Alynn]

On another related towing/range note. Why do we not talk more about swapping batteries?

https://insideevs.com/news/760959/china-catl-battery-swap-choco-seb/

I can't imagine this is under consideration by ScoutMotors, but it seems like such a better way to solve range issues vs. ridiculously large and heavy battery packs. In my ideal world, I would maybe have a smaller battery in the car for everyday use that I can charge at home. Say around 50 to 100 kWh. And a slot for battery expansion that I could slot in a battery from a swap station for long-range towing trips.

If you search those terms here on the forum you will see there was a lot of discussion some time ago. It’s an interesting read but ultimately it just isn’t practical yet. Check it out though so my thoughts don’t sway you one way or the other

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

I was trying to consider total energy consumption over a significant drive, say at least 50 miles. The expenditure for drag is constant over the whole distance, linear with distance and squared with speed. The expenditure for K.E. is just to get up to speed, amortized over the whole distance would it not be negligible compared to that for drag? Am I missing something?

Warning: Maths!!!

I thought about hiding everything behind a spoiler, but nah. All you mathophobes can just enjoy it.

I also have to apologize. I was in the car and typing makes me carsick, so I did the bar minimum to give the math earlier and it was both not enough and not quite right.

I can’t get the formatting to work, so I dropped in some screenshots of the slightly-better-formatted text.

Spoiler: Badly-Formatted Text

Assume a driver accelerates up to a cruising velocity v, and maintains that speed for a distance d, which is the distance between the start and stop locations. At this point, they slam on the brakes and turns all the vehicle’s kinetic energy into heat in the brakes stopping the vehicle. (To make this simpler, the vehicle doesn’t have regenerative braking.) The acceleration gives the car kinetic energy; braking throws that kinetic energy away in the form of heat.

Assume the car speeds up and slows (i.e., it gains and then loses kinetic energy) down once in each duration,
time t = d/v.

The rate at which energy is turned into heat by the brakes is the same as the rate of energy expenditure by the vehicle’s power plant to accelerate, move, then stop the vehicle.

Kinetic Energy 0.5*m*v^2 0.5*m*v^3
——————————————————— = ———————— = —————————
time between braking events d/v d


Energy goes not only into the brakes while the car is moving, the moving vehicle also makes air swirl around. A car leaves behind swirling air, moving at a speed similar to v.

The swirling air basically makes a “tube” with a volume create in a time t. This volume = A*v*t, where A is the front-cross-sectional area of the tube. This is similar to, but not the same as the area of the front of the vehicle. If the vehicle’s coefficient of drag is less than 1, the tube of air has an effectively smaller cross sectional area than the vehicle. If the coefficient of drag is larger than 1, the tube of air has an effectively larger cross sectional area than the vehicle. I’ll ignore the coefficient of drag and just let the cross sectional area term, A, absorb it. The tube of air has mass m_air = ρAvt (where ρ is the density of air) and swirls at speed v, so its kinetic energy is:

0.5 * m_air * v^2 = 0.5 * ρ * A * v * t * v^2 = 0.5 * ρ * A * t * v^3

The rate of kinetic energy generation in this tube of swirling air is the kinetic energy term divided by time t:

0.5 * ρ * A * t * v^3
——————————————————— = 0.5 * ρ * A * v^3
t


The total rate of energy produced by the vehicle once it’s started moving, driven, and then stopped (assuming a quick enough acceleration and deceleration we don’t need to use differential equations) is the sum of those two terms.

0.5*m*v^3
Rate of Kinetic Energy Generation while driving = ————————— + 0.5 * ρ * A * v^3
d



—Bonus—
You can work out whether the kinetic energy dumped into the brakes or or the kinetic energy dumped into moving the air out of the way is more important by comparing the two and figuring out which matters more for your particular vehicle.

We’re assuming you get up to the same velocity in the following discussion.

To do that comparison, let’s ratio the two terms. Doing so cancels the 0.5 and the v^3, leaving us with:

(m/d) / (ρA)

Clean up once more:

m / ρdA

If this is larger than one, then the mass of the vehicle matters more than the air resistance and if that ratio is less than 1, then air resistance matters more.

The Scout Traveler (by itself) has an area of: 80 inches * 76.3 inches = 2.03 meters * 1.94 meters = 3.94 m^2.
Include coefficient of drag, which we don’t know, but let’s use a truck-like Cd = 0.56. That gives us an A = 0.56 * 3.94 m^2 = 2.2 m^2.

Density of air, ρ, is 1.3 kg/m^3.

Mass of the R1S is a reasonable estimate for the mass of the Traveler: 3050 kg.

We solve for the driving distance where the relative importance takes over:

1 = m/(ρdA)
multiply both sides by d.
d = m / (ρA)

d = 3050 kg / (1.3 kg/m^3 * 2.2 m^2)
d = 1066 meters.

Essentially what this is saying, given not totally unreasonable speeds and accelerations:

If you drive less than 1066 meters, then the mass of the Traveler matters more for energy expenditure. If you drive more than 1066 meters, then the air resistance matters more.

A travel trailer might double the coefficient of drag of its tow vehicle.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

Dont electric motors also have a weird efficiency ratio?

When I was in the commercial HVAC world an engineer told me that a if an electric motor was running at 100% load and another was running at 80% load, the one running at 80% uses 50% less energy or something like that.

Okay, I did some reading and I think the guy misremembered, misstated, or maybe you misunderstood/misremembered.

An oversized motor can waste a lot of energy. An undersized motor can fail spectacularly.

What the tech was probably remembering was that oversizing the motor, for example for HVAC, can waste a lot more energy than it saves. But you would have to oversize it quite a lot. You want it to operate at 60-80% full load.

 

[Chavannigans]

Okay, I did some reading and I think the guy misremembered, misstated, or maybe you misunderstood/misremembered.

An oversized motor can waste a lot of energy. An undersized motor can fail spectacularly.

What the tech was probably remembering was that oversizing the motor, for example for HVAC, can waste a lot more energy than it saves. But you would have to oversize it quite a lot. You want it to operate at 60-80% full load.

View attachment 6793

That sounds about right. That the 80% area was a sweet spot for efficiency and output.

We were discussing VFDs (Variable Frequency Drives) and how they save energy.

 

[AlanL]

I thought about hiding everything behind a spoiler, but nah. All you mathophobes can just enjoy it.

WOW, thanks! I’ll have to save and study this some more. And I’ll forgive you for not pointing out the 1066 meters is at STP. () Folks in Colorado will get a bit more distance in summer. Now I’ll have to look up air density with temperature and with elevation to see where winter in Colorado falls.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

WOW, thanks! I’ll have to save and study this some more. And I’ll forgive you for not pointing out the 1066 meters is at STP. () Folks in Colorado will get a bit more distance in summer. Now I’ll have to look up air density with temperature and with elevation to see where winter in Colorado falls.

Yeah, the precision of the distance was over the top...

 

[ThatMattGuy]

I have to say, I'm really regretting posting on these forums at all. I posted that I am actually concerned that they claim a 7 or 8K lb towing capacity for the Traveler, and people have clearly taken that personally and even attempted to convince me that my opinion is wrong.

I've been accused of not pushing off-road (by someone who clearly doesn't have any clue about it, as I specifically mentioned taking a stock F-150 down trails rated at a 6). Several people tried to claim my entire opinion isn't valid because I mentioned a desert runner instead of a rock crawler. For those people, There is no rock crawler version of any truck that tows 10,000 lbs because it's ridiculous, which proves my point rather than negates it. If we're looking at Ford, you have to get a Bronco Badlands to get close, and then you get 3,500 lbs towing capacity. There's a reason for that. One person suggested I buy a Jeep Wrangler 4xe, which I hope was a joke, because that vehicle certainly is one, given that you get less than 10 miles of EV range off-road.

And for all of you trying to convince me that I'm wrong, I'll leave you with this: There are TONS of vehicles already available that will tow your 10,000 lb trailer. If you want an EV, there's the Lightning, the Silverado EV, and a Rivian. The Ram Charger is also well ahead of the Scout in development. If you aren't 100% set on an EV, there are dozens. There is absolutely no reason for Scout to build an EV version of a half ton truck. That would be a really stupid market to try to compete in. No one builds an EV with good suspension travel, and the ones that are supposed to be off-road capable aren't even close to what we can buy in the ICE world. There is literally no one making a vehicle for that market now.

A large number of people on this forum have a serious attitude problem. I have no desire to be part of this community. I will be turning off all notifications and forgetting this place exists. Maybe I'll consider coming back once the vehicle is released, but I rather doubt it.

 

[J Alynn]

I have to say, I'm really regretting posting on these forums at all. I posted that I am actually concerned that they claim a 7 or 8K lb towing capacity for the Traveler, and people have clearly taken that personally and even attempted to convince me that my opinion is wrong.

I've been accused of not pushing off-road (by someone who clearly doesn't have any clue about it, as I specifically mentioned taking a stock F-150 down trails rated at a 6). Several people tried to claim my entire opinion isn't valid because I mentioned a desert runner instead of a rock crawler. For those people, There is no rock crawler version of any truck that tows 10,000 lbs because it's ridiculous, which proves my point rather than negates it. If we're looking at Ford, you have to get a Bronco Badlands to get close, and then you get 3,500 lbs towing capacity. There's a reason for that. One person suggested I buy a Jeep Wrangler 4xe, which I hope was a joke, because that vehicle certainly is one, given that you get less than 10 miles of EV range off-road.

And for all of you trying to convince me that I'm wrong, I'll leave you with this: There are TONS of vehicles already available that will tow your 10,000 lb trailer. If you want an EV, there's the Lightning, the Silverado EV, and a Rivian. The Ram Charger is also well ahead of the Scout in development. If you aren't 100% set on an EV, there are dozens. There is absolutely no reason for Scout to build an EV version of a half ton truck. That would be a really stupid market to try to compete in. No one builds an EV with good suspension travel, and the ones that are supposed to be off-road capable aren't even close to what we can buy in the ICE world. There is literally no one making a vehicle for that market now.

A large number of people on this forum have a serious attitude problem. I have no desire to be part of this community. I will be turning off all notifications and forgetting this place exists. Maybe I'll consider coming back once the vehicle is released, but I rather doubt it.

Sorry to hear you feel this way. For the record I supported your thoughts. There is a ton of speculation on this forum by a lot of people making assumptions based on their needs and their needs alone. There are a lot of us here that have been here for a while and support an all around vehicle. Hate to see you go but keep in mind unless a member has @ScoutMotors after their name they are merely speculating unless quoting actual data which there is very little of. If nothing else, hang out on the side lines and see what people have to say. Some days it’s tough on the forum but don’t let a few single minded members push you out.

 

[Chavannigans]

The Lexus GX550 Overtrail towing capacity is 9,063lb with a 3.4 V6…

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

The belief that one vehicle is supposed to do everything is strong, especially when the vehicle doesn’t exist yet. And especially as the price of all vehicles continues to climb through the roof.

As mentioned, a 10k towing capacity is readily available with the Lightning, Silverado (Sierra), Rivian, etc., etc. So why is Scout trying to compete in this market?

Toyota and Nissan have been trying to compete in the US full-size truck space for 25 years. They’re doing fine, but they’re not really taking that world by storm.
Toyota sold an average of 114,000 Tundras a year since 2000.
Nissan sold an average of 32,000 Titans a year since 2005; its total full-sized truck sales in 20 years is less than one year of the F-150.
Rivian sold an average of 41,000 vehicles (both R1S and R1T) per year since 2022, its first full year of vehicle sales.

Ram sells an average of 400,000 pickups a year since 1996.
GM/Chevy sell an average of 770,000 Silverado/Sierras a year, but I think this includes 1500, 2500, and 3500s.
Ford sells an average of 765,000 F-150s a year.
In 2024, Ford sold 34,000 Lightnings, which is more than Nissan’s average yearly Titan sales and more than twice the Titan sales in 2024.

So the question is where does Scout get its customers from?

GM/Ford/Ram customers tend to be fiercely loyal, but it’s not impossible to take a few unhappy customers. Poaching 5% of their customers (~106,000 per year) would be enough to put Scout in good position. Toyota’s managed to get to ~6% after 25 years. I wouldn’t bet on more than 1-3% of the full-size market, but only after Scout proves itself.

Or does Scout go after a different market?

Scout Motors decided it will build an “offroad” lifestyle vehicle.
It decided on a body-on-frame vehicle at some point early in its design process, probably to stick with an historical connection to IH Scout.

A lifestyle EV is expected to have a high acceleration. And having a long range is a requirement for an EV in today’s market.
That requires powerful motors and large batteries. The powerful motors and heavy weight lead to heavy-duty axles. The big battery leads to a heavy-duty frame.
The towing capacity kind of just falls out of other aspects of such an EV’s capabilities. A 10,000 pound towing capacity is the result of design decisions that probably had little to do with towing. Except the cooling capabilities necessary to enable 10k towing are significant and Scout made the decision to enable the 10k tow capacity by deciding on updating the cooling capabilities. The cooling doesn’t add significant weight.

Toss in a Harvester engine directly over the rear axle and they lose 250-500 pounds from the rear axle GAWR, which leads to 2500 to 5000 pounds lower towing capacity than the BEV.

The F-150 Raptor has about the same curb weight as the F-150 Lightning. To me, this means including a capable suspension wouldn’t be too difficult for a Raptor Lightning. I’m certain Ford is still studying BEV desert running. Chevrolet is planning to run their Silverado ZR2 BEV in the Mint 400. Several other EV manufacturers are getting into the endurance game as well.

Is the Scout going to be capable of doing desert running? I think it’ll depend on whether Scout includes an option for long-travel suspension and how well they isolate the battery from vibrations and hard impacts. Unless they find several aftermarket options from well-trusted suspension manufacturers that can be available on day one, they need to build it themselves so there’s something available at launch. If the suspension isn’t available at launch, they’ll struggle to meet that part of the market.


[Edited to include Ram b/c how could I forget them?]