Bigger Gas Tank - 15 Gallons is Abysmal

[Demlockian]

First, let's review battery basics, as I understand them: for optimal daily use, electric vehicles (EVs) are generally recommended to stay within an 80% maximum State of Charge (SOC) and avoid consistently dropping below a 20% minimum SOC.

To maximize the longevity of an electric vehicle's battery, a practical guideline is to consider approximately 60% of the battery capacity as the usable range for daily driving. This stems from adhering to an 80% SOC upper limit for and avoiding consistently dropping below a 20% SOC, which minimizes battery stress and degradation.

Realistic Driving Use Case

With an effective 60% SOC window the Harvester's 150-mile range translates to roughly 90 miles of usable range. This effectively addresses the daily driving needs of average commuters, as urban commuters typically travel 20-30 miles round trip (leaving approximately 65 miles of extra range) and rural commuters travel 40-60 miles (leaving around 40 miles of extra range).

For longer journeys, the Harvester's ability to add 300 miles (stopping at 1/6 tank remaining) of range (23.3 MPG) is invaluable. Considering that the average long-distance family road trip is roughly 750 miles (per ChatGPT), and the Scout with the Harvester can travel approximately 390 miles before refueling, a single 15-gallon refill extends the range to 690 miles, enabling completion of the average road trip with just two stops.

However, range is significantly impacted when towing a trailer. According to ChatGPT, towing at 70% of a vehicle's maximum capacity can reduce range by approximately 40%. This would decrease the EV range to around 55 miles and the gasoline range to 175 miles (accounting the same 1/6 remainder stop), resulting in a total of 230 miles per cycle. Therefore, completing a 750-mile trip would require refueling the Harvester approximately four or five times, considering that only 175 miles of range are added with each gasoline refuel.

In contrast, a Ford F-150 with a 3.5L EcoBoost engine achieves an estimated 22 MPG on the highway and has a 36-gallon fuel tank, translating to a towing range of nearly 395 miles per refueling stop (stopping at the same 1/6 tank remainder). This enables the F-150 to complete the same 750-mile trip with half (or fewer) the refueling stops compared to a Scout Terra equipped with the Harvester while towing.

All of this is to say that the 15-gallon proposed gas tank size is severely inadequate for real world towing applications. To be comparable, the Harvester needs an optional 25-gallon or larger tank. The 25-gallon tank option would raise the initial range to nearly 600 miles useable, which competes with similar trucks in the segment. Furthermore, it increases the standard towing refuel range from 175 (abysmal) to nearly 300 miles (acceptable). Bigger would still be preferred personally.

Generator Use
It's hard to speculate how long the Harvester would last in generator mode without further details, but let's do some shade tree math here. A 10kW gasoline generator uses about 2.5 gallons of fuel per hour at full load. According to ChatGPT, the average single occurrence power outage is roughly 2.5 hours, allowing the 15 gallon tank to be adequate (only used 6.25 gallons). However, in coastal areas power outages can be upwards of 72 hours due to large storms. With an upgraded 25-gallon tank, the homeowner (or renter) would have 10 hours of uninterrupted service, enough to sleep through the night comfortably (the 15-gallon tank only provides 6 hours).

 

[dreamweaver]

First, let's review battery basics, as I understand them: for optimal daily use, electric vehicles (EVs) are generally recommended to stay within an 80% maximum State of Charge (SOC) and avoid consistently dropping below a 20% minimum SOC.

To maximize the longevity of an electric vehicle's battery, a practical guideline is to consider approximately 60% of the battery capacity as the usable range for daily driving. This stems from adhering to an 80% SOC upper limit for and avoiding consistently dropping below a 20% SOC, which minimizes battery stress and degradation.

Realistic Driving Use Case

With an effective 60% SOC window the Harvester's 150-mile range translates to roughly 90 miles of usable range. This effectively addresses the daily driving needs of average commuters, as urban commuters typically travel 20-30 miles round trip (leaving approximately 65 miles of extra range) and rural commuters travel 40-60 miles (leaving around 40 miles of extra range).

For longer journeys, the Harvester's ability to add 300 miles (stopping at 1/6 tank remaining) of range (23.3 MPG) is invaluable. Considering that the average long-distance family road trip is roughly 750 miles (per ChatGPT), and the Scout with the Harvester can travel approximately 390 miles before refueling, a single 15-gallon refill extends the range to 690 miles, enabling completion of the average road trip with just two stops.

However, range is significantly impacted when towing a trailer. According to ChatGPT, towing at 70% of a vehicle's maximum capacity can reduce range by approximately 40%. This would decrease the EV range to around 55 miles and the gasoline range to 175 miles (accounting the same 1/6 remainder stop), resulting in a total of 230 miles per cycle. Therefore, completing a 750-mile trip would require refueling the Harvester approximately four or five times, considering that only 175 miles of range are added with each gasoline refuel.

In contrast, a Ford F-150 with a 3.5L EcoBoost engine achieves an estimated 22 MPG on the highway and has a 36-gallon fuel tank, translating to a towing range of nearly 395 miles per refueling stop (stopping at the same 1/6 tank remainder). This enables the F-150 to complete the same 750-mile trip with half (or fewer) the refueling stops compared to a Scout Terra equipped with the Harvester while towing.

All of this is to say that the 15-gallon proposed gas tank size is severely inadequate for real world towing applications. To be comparable, the Harvester needs an optional 25-gallon or larger tank. The 25-gallon tank option would raise the initial range to nearly 600 miles useable, which competes with similar trucks in the segment. Furthermore, it increases the standard towing refuel range from 175 (abysmal) to nearly 300 miles (acceptable). Bigger would still be preferred personally.

Generator Use
It's hard to speculate how long the Harvester would last in generator mode without further details, but let's do some shade tree math here. A 10kW gasoline generator uses about 2.5 gallons of fuel per hour at full load. According to ChatGPT, the average single occurrence power outage is roughly 2.5 hours, allowing the 15 gallon tank to be adequate (only used 6.25 gallons). However, in coastal areas power outages can be upwards of 72 hours due to large storms. With an upgraded 25-gallon tank, the homeowner (or renter) would have 10 hours of uninterrupted service, enough to sleep through the night comfortably (the 15-gallon tank only provides 6 hours).

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[DaveGunter]

The don’t go over 80% or under 20% guideline is way overblown. What you don’t want to do is go over 90% or under 10% and stay there. Charging to 100% right before using the vehicle is really no big deal and going below 10% is no big deal as long as you can plug in when you stop. In addition EV manufactures have upper and lower buffers built in to the BMS so when the vehicle says 100%, it’s more like 95%, same for the lower end. Also the battery chemistry that Scout is using for the Harvester is way less susceptible to stress and degradation from being left in a fully charged state.

 

[R1TVT]

Completely agree with the above and charge to 100% all the time before leaving my house on a long road trip with virtually no degradation after 50K miles.

 

[J Alynn]

First, let's review battery basics, as I understand them: for optimal daily use, electric vehicles (EVs) are generally recommended to stay within an 80% maximum State of Charge (SOC) and avoid consistently dropping below a 20% minimum SOC.

To maximize the longevity of an electric vehicle's battery, a practical guideline is to consider approximately 60% of the battery capacity as the usable range for daily driving. This stems from adhering to an 80% SOC upper limit for and avoiding consistently dropping below a 20% SOC, which minimizes battery stress and degradation.

Realistic Driving Use Case

With an effective 60% SOC window the Harvester's 150-mile range translates to roughly 90 miles of usable range. This effectively addresses the daily driving needs of average commuters, as urban commuters typically travel 20-30 miles round trip (leaving approximately 65 miles of extra range) and rural commuters travel 40-60 miles (leaving around 40 miles of extra range).

For longer journeys, the Harvester's ability to add 300 miles (stopping at 1/6 tank remaining) of range (23.3 MPG) is invaluable. Considering that the average long-distance family road trip is roughly 750 miles (per ChatGPT), and the Scout with the Harvester can travel approximately 390 miles before refueling, a single 15-gallon refill extends the range to 690 miles, enabling completion of the average road trip with just two stops.

However, range is significantly impacted when towing a trailer. According to ChatGPT, towing at 70% of a vehicle's maximum capacity can reduce range by approximately 40%. This would decrease the EV range to around 55 miles and the gasoline range to 175 miles (accounting the same 1/6 remainder stop), resulting in a total of 230 miles per cycle. Therefore, completing a 750-mile trip would require refueling the Harvester approximately four or five times, considering that only 175 miles of range are added with each gasoline refuel.

In contrast, a Ford F-150 with a 3.5L EcoBoost engine achieves an estimated 22 MPG on the highway and has a 36-gallon fuel tank, translating to a towing range of nearly 395 miles per refueling stop (stopping at the same 1/6 tank remainder). This enables the F-150 to complete the same 750-mile trip with half (or fewer) the refueling stops compared to a Scout Terra equipped with the Harvester while towing.

All of this is to say that the 15-gallon proposed gas tank size is severely inadequate for real world towing applications. To be comparable, the Harvester needs an optional 25-gallon or larger tank. The 25-gallon tank option would raise the initial range to nearly 600 miles useable, which competes with similar trucks in the segment. Furthermore, it increases the standard towing refuel range from 175 (abysmal) to nearly 300 miles (acceptable). Bigger would still be preferred personally.

Generator Use
It's hard to speculate how long the Harvester would last in generator mode without further details, but let's do some shade tree math here. A 10kW gasoline generator uses about 2.5 gallons of fuel per hour at full load. According to ChatGPT, the average single occurrence power outage is roughly 2.5 hours, allowing the 15 gallon tank to be adequate (only used 6.25 gallons). However, in coastal areas power outages can be upwards of 72 hours due to large storms. With an upgraded 25-gallon tank, the homeowner (or renter) would have 10 hours of uninterrupted service, enough to sleep through the night comfortably (the 15-gallon tank only provides 6 hours).

Why do new members always start by complaining? 15 gallons is in the same realm of 85% of all ICE vehicles. Why should the Scouts have more. I don’t understand why so many people think the Scout should offer more than the ICE’s they will compete against. The Broncos gets 20mpg on a good day and have a 16.(something) gallon tank for a range of 320 miles. I ask again-why should the scout have more. If SM adds every extreme everyone asks for this thing will be $150K. This is an EV/hybrid brick on wheels. Let’s all be reasonable because if these vehicles climb past $80K nicely equipped SM will probably lose 40% or more of their buyers. SM has to have done their research and knows where price points need to be. They would not have started a $2 billion dollar endeavor if they hadn’t. Want more range but my the integrated Jerry cans and then you will have the extra range. But to say 15 gallons is abysmal is really funny. Especially since that 15 gallons (which hasn’t been officially confirmed-that I know of) is on top of an additional 150 miles of battery range. Rant over!

 

[Bored and Stroked]

You know, I've been tracking this forum since I made my order back in October, mostly to get updates and monitor some discussions like this one. Generally I have found this forum to feel non-inclusive, where anytime a new person brings up a valid discussion, veteran members shut down the discussion because a) it's already been discussed and the old-timers have already decided the outcome, so don't discuss again, or b) just trust Scout to do the right thing. It really makes me not want to engage because it seems to be the same dozen or so people on every single thread, which reduces the diversity of thought and ideas. Who cares if some folks want to rehash something that was discussed 6 months ago, just ignore it.

I thought the OP made a cogent argument, and posted it very politely. I'm trying to assume everyone here, new folks and veterans, all have an interest in discussing excitement around the Scout.

I'm excited about Scout, but this forum feels more and more like a private club that an open forum.

 

[Chuckles]

You know, I've been tracking this forum since I made my order back in October, mostly to get updates and monitor some discussions like this one. Generally I have found this forum to feel non-inclusive, where anytime a new person brings up a valid discussion, veteran members shut down the discussion because a) it's already been discussed and the old-timers have already decided the outcome, so don't discuss again, or b) just trust Scout to do the right thing. It really makes me not want to engage because it seems to be the same dozen or so people on every single thread, which reduces the diversity of thought and ideas. Who cares if some folks want to rehash something that was discussed 6 months ago, just ignore it.

I thought the OP made a cogent argument, and posted it very politely. I'm trying to assume everyone here, new folks and veterans, all have an interest in discussing excitement around the Scout.

I'm excited about Scout, but this forum feels more and more like a private club that an open forum.

Perhaps long-time members here would be more receptive if people didn't use phrases like "15 gallons is abysmal". Many members here politely urge newbies to do some searching before rehashing topics with new threads. If you see a lot of the same names posting, it's because they are passionate Scout lovers. That's not a negative.

​

 

[Logan]

A few thoughts on this:

• Driving
  • The harvester models will have LFP batteries, which are generally perceived as better able to handle charging to 100%.
  • We don't have details on how the battery range is calculated, but if its anything like a normal PHEV, the 150 miles is of EV range, is until the generator automatically kicks on, not until the battery is totally depleted.
    • This leaves some amount in reserve, so normal operation can be maintained.
    • This is now my PHEV works. It's rated for 33 miles of EV range, and that is when you go from 100% charge, to where the gas engine kicks in, at around ~18%.
• Generator mode
  • The Harvester generator is going to be a small 4 cylinder, fuel injected engine (naturally aspirated). It's likely going to have a power output than 10kw. Likely something much more, like somewhere in the 50-130KW range.
    • This is based on Scotts statement that says that the harvester will be able to sustain 70mph cruising.
    • Using some estimation, we assume a rough ballpark efficiency of ~2 miles per KW.
    • Which means to sustain 70mph if the battery was depleted, it would use .5KW mile, or 35KWh per hour.
    • That is the NET power input the motors need to sustain those speeds, the power output of the generator will have to be higher.
    • For perspective, the Ram Ramcharger is rated for ~130-190KW, but ALSO sports a higher towing rating than the Scouts (14k lbs vs 10k lbs for the Terra). So, a 50-130KW power output range for the harvester makes sense.
  • When using the scout as a generator for a house during a power outage, I don't think the engine will usually be running.
    • Unlike a normal generator, the engine doesn't HAVE to be on. It has a huge battery bank to draw from, which is great because home energy loads are usually not static at 10kw or whatever.
    • More likely, the battery will be drawn down from whatever starting charge, down to some threshold (which according to the CES videos, we can set in the UI), and then the generator will be fired up, to recharge the battery back up to some higher target.

For the Traveler Harvester, I think the 15gal tank is fairly competitive/reasonable (remember, also has a lower max towing rating than the Terra, even in EV mode). And at least for my use cases (non-towing), I think its totally fine.

But for the Terra, for those towing long distances, I think a larger tank could be useful. For comparison, the Ramcharger (again, a different sort of vehicle), has a 29 gal tank. The upside, is that the Terra has a lot more space to put a larger tank as well (with the longer wheelbase), so maybe that will end up happening.

TLDR: I don't think that 15gal is "abysmal", but for the Terra in particular for long distance towing, could potentially benefit from a bit larger tank.