We own EVs. Ask Us Anything.

[J Alynn]

I’ll answer in several comments.

One general rule is that the cost to run the inverter, onboard charger (for AC—L1 and L2—charging), and other electronics is essentially constant. Lower current through those usually means longer run-time, which means that constant power draw by the electronics leads to lower efficiency.
Example:
Using an L1 EVSE vs a low-amperage L2 EVSE vs a mid-amperage L2 EVSE vs a max-amperage L2 EVSE. Assume the onboard charger (AC to DC converter) requires 200 watts. This will be different for different brands, etc.; this is just illustrative.

• L1 = 1.4 kW draw from the wall. 200 watts goes to the onboard charger, 50 watts goes to the EVSE. That means, discounting any heat generated, only 1.15 kW goes to the battery. So you get an 82% efficiency.
• L2 @ 15 A = 3.6 kW draw from the wall. 200 Watts to onboard charger, 50 Watts to EVSE, ignore heat generated. 93% efficiency
• L2 @ 25 A = 6 kW: 96% efficiency
• L2 @ 48 A = 11.5 kW: 98% efficiency
• L2 @ 80A = 19.2 kW: 99% efficiency
• L2 @ 80A = 19.2 kW: 97% efficiency

There are other losses, so these numbers are inaccurate as you go to higher currents, mostly because of joule heating. So you won’t see much better energy efficiency above about 48 A. And this isn’t the efficiency of the entire system, just that one component. You’re going to see around 95-97% efficiency maximum.

@cyu

I won’t pretend to understand all of this but I like to read it anyway and look some stuff up…

I did date a Jules in college and she was hot, but I don’t think that counts here…

I was thinking of a family jewels joke but realized that would be inappropriate. Same boat but I always appreciate Space educating us.
I’m thinking @cyure is probably just mumbling math, math, math…..

 

[cyure]

@cyu
I was thinking of a family jewels joke but realized that would be inappropriate. Same boat but I always appreciate Space educating us.
I’m thinking @cyure is probably just mumbling math, math, math…..

MATH!

 

[strider]

For all of the normies on here, don't worry about it. This matters WAY less in an EV than in an ICE. Why? No transmission. In an ICE, the engine is going from zero efficiency (at idle) to max efficiency (at some rpm less than redline) to less than max efficiency (rpms above that max efficiency value) over and over again, every time you change gears. EVs don't have that variability built into every acceleration and deceleration event. Punching it will eat up tires of course, but there is no appreciable loss of range (though you or your passengers may lose their lunch). So while geeking out on a message board while we wait for our Scouts can be fun, once you get your Scout, just drive it

 

[Logan]

For all of the normies on here, don't worry about it. This matters WAY less in an EV than in an ICE. Why? No transmission. In an ICE, the engine is going from zero efficiency (at idle) to max efficiency (at some rpm less than redline) to less than max efficiency (rpms above that max efficiency value) over and over again, every time you change gears. EVs don't have that variability built into every acceleration and deceleration event. Punching it will eat up tires of course, but there is no appreciable loss of range (though you or your passengers may lose their lunch). So while geeking out on a message board while we wait for our Scouts can be fun, once you get your Scout, just drive it

I've been thinking about this lately, and by and large, I agree. Assuming you're not hitting some thermal limits and inefficiencies somewhere, its sort of a wash.

One other area that it may differ, is actually the inverters. I know my Ioniq 9 has more efficient inverters (Silicon Carbide) that it uses most of the time, but when you put the hammer down, they have some extra inverters that come online that are less efficient (Silicon). I can actually feel this transition when I put the hammer down, so In general, I try to avoid "needing" to get to the less efficient part.

But... to be honest, the amount of time spent in those lower efficiency inverters is so low... that I doubt it really affects things one way or the other.

So yeah, I agree with the statement .

I actually still think multi-speed transmissions do seem to still be things that we may see more of in the future for EV's. Particularly for the offroading EV's like the scout (functioning more or less like a transfer case), to help reduce the current draw needs for serious offroading by mechanical advantage. Both Rivian, and Jeep have patented solutions for this (Here, and Here). It may also be thing for highway use at some point as well (Only Audi/Porsche have really used it so far, but Mercedes is exploring it as well). But I know I'm in the tiny minority here.

 

[speedrye]

I've been thinking about this lately, and by and large, I agree. Assuming you're not hitting some thermal limits and inefficiencies somewhere, its sort of a wash.

One other area that it may differ, is actually the inverters. I know my Ioniq 9 has more efficient inverters (Silicon Carbide) that it uses most of the time, but when you put the hammer down, they have some extra inverters that come online that are less efficient (Silicon). I can actually feel this transition when I put the hammer down, so In general, I try to avoid "needing" to get to the less efficient part.

But... to be honest, the amount of time spent in those lower efficiency inverters is so low... that I doubt it really affects things one way or the other.

So yeah, I agree with the statement .

I actually still think multi-speed transmissions do seem to still be things that we may see more of in the future for EV's. Particularly for the offroading EV's like the scout (functioning more or less like a transfer case), to help reduce the current draw needs for serious offroading by mechanical advantage. Both Rivian, and Jeep have patented solutions for this (Here, and Here). It may also be thing for highway use at some point as well (Only Audi/Porsche have really used it so far, but Mercedes is exploring it as well). But I know I'm in the tiny minority here.

I'd love to see lower gearing for offroading, but don't want to pay Porsche money for a 2-speed transmission either.

 

[Logan]

I'd love to see lower gearing for offroading, but don't want to pay Porsche money for a 2-speed transmission either.

Agreed. And believe it or not, I'm in the same boat there.

I don't think we'll see it on the Scouts at this point. But more thinking longer term for EV's in general, and I think its interesting that there is enough continued interest in it that there here that it shows there are some potential gains/uses cases.

Another way we've seen this (that doesn't use multi-speed transmissions), is some AWD vehicles (It was one of the Tesla family of vehicles, either the S/X, or the Y/3, but I don't remember which offhand) have different final drive ratios for the front/rear axles, and the vehicle defaults to primarily driving (ie, preferring to power that one) when full traction is not needed. Usually this looks like a shorter (easier) gear ratio in the rear (for acceleration), and a taller ratio in the front (for cruising).

I just think its all interesting .

 

[Airon]

This is probably a dumb question, and has probably been answered before in this or other posts, but I'm a newb to EVs.

It seems logical, but is the range effected by how fast you drive, and how long you drive at fast speeds? Say travelling at 80mph on a road trip, does that take the range down by a lot? Similarly, if you just do quick accelerations because you want to impress your friend, if you do that several times over during a drive, will that kill your range?

Side question, I don't currently have any charging apparatus at home to charge an EV. Is this an additional cost I would need to purchase before the vehicle? Would there be some proprietary charging hardware I would need to have installed by Scout?

 

[cyure]

This is probably a dumb question, and has probably been answered before in this or other posts, but I'm a newb to EVs.

It seems logical, but is the range effected by how fast you drive, and how long you drive at fast speeds? Say travelling at 80mph on a road trip, does that take the range down by a lot? Similarly, if you just do quick accelerations because you want to impress your friend, if you do that several times over during a drive, will that kill your range?

Side question, I don't currently have any charging apparatus at home to charge an EV. Is this an additional cost I would need to purchase before the vehicle? Would there be some proprietary charging hardware I would need to have installed by Scout?

First of all, these are not dumb questions at all. I had all these questions and more. There are quite a few members on here who have EVs who have been very generous and answered many, sometimes over and over again.

A couple in particular that have owned EVs for quite a while are @SpaceEVDriver and @CrankyCanuk. If you look at some of their old posts you will probably fund answers to a lot of your questions. @SpaceEVDriver is very good at the math and what speed does to range, etc.

Keep asking those questions. That’s how we are all learning around here. I have switched from an EREV to a BEV reservation based on all the information I have learned on this forum.

 

[Logan]

This is probably a dumb question, and has probably been answered before in this or other posts, but I'm a newb to EVs.

It seems logical, but is the range effected by how fast you drive, and how long you drive at fast speeds? Say travelling at 80mph on a road trip, does that take the range down by a lot? Similarly, if you just do quick accelerations because you want to impress your friend, if you do that several times over during a drive, will that kill your range?

Side question, I don't currently have any charging apparatus at home to charge an EV. Is this an additional cost I would need to purchase before the vehicle? Would there be some proprietary charging hardware I would need to have installed by Scout?

Welcome!

1) Range is impacted by speed, for sure (and more than most people think). The short version is that there will always be a point where driving faster, actually makes your road trip go slower, because you would spend more time/stops charging. This speed is probably somewhere in the realm of 72-80mph for most EV's, and heavily depends on how fast the vehicle charges. Its pretty easy to see that if you had a 2hr recharge time (a made up, horribly slow charging vehicle), you'd want to drive slower to get more range and charge less frequently.

Conversely, if you have a super fast charging electric vehicle (like 5-10 minutes, the types you cannot buy, or charge in north america yet. Or the 15-25min variety that we get in north america), it might make sense to drive faster, and use that faster charging to arrive at your destination earlier.

2) Quick acceleration was discussed a bit earlier. But the short version is... it really doesn't have much effect. There may be some, but, its sort of not a big issue if you decide to "race" to 60mph to impress some friends, or just liesurely get there. There will be other wear (like tires), but in terms of battery used to get to 60mph, its not really going to be enough different to care for most people (if any).

3) There are three types of charging.

• Level 3 (fast charging), which functions close to how a fuel pump at a gas station works. Basically only used by EV owners if they can't charge at home, or are on a road trip (and also way more expensive than charging at home).
• Level 2. This is "the fastest charging you can do at home".
  • Level 2 charging speeds vary depending on the vehicle used, and the power you give the charger, but think of it as "it can charge any EV overnight".
    • You can think of it as adding somewhere between ~20-50 miles of range, per hour depending on vehicle/charging speeds.
  • It uses 240v, which means that if you happen to have a handy 240v plug, or panel, its not too hard to add one.
  • The chargers cost ~$350-600 or so, in addition to any costs you may have getting them wired in (maybe $500-1000 depending on if you have to hire an electrician, do inspections, etc).
• Level 1. This is the slowest charging you can do.
  • It uses a standard 120v household outlet
  • Many vehicles come with a level 1 charger
  • Most vehicles take 2-4 days to charge from 0% - 100% with this style of charging.
  • You can think of it adding ~3-4 miles of range to the vehicle, per hour.
  • Which means if you have a short local commute, you could totally charge with Level 1 charging, and be fine.

Most EV owners end up with a Level 2 charger, but Level 1 is more useful than people think. I have a friend who bought an EV locally, and used a Level 1 charger for the first 6 weeks or so for their daily household errands/school dropoffs/etc, and it was able to keep up with the demand/and gain charge over time. But he did eventually install an Level 2 charger, as it gives you more flexibility.

 

[cyure]

Welcome!

1) Range is impacted by speed, for sure (and more than most people think). The short version is that there will always be a point where driving faster, actually makes your road trip go slower, because you would spend more time/stops charging. This speed is probably somewhere in the realm of 72-80mph for most EV's, and heavily depends on how fast the vehicle charges. Its pretty easy to see that if you had a 2hr recharge time (a made up, horribly slow charging vehicle), you'd want to drive slower to get more range and charge less frequently.

Conversely, if you have a super fast charging electric vehicle (like 5-10 minutes, the types you cannot buy, or charge in north america yet. Or the 15-25min variety that we get in north america), it might make sense to drive faster, and use that faster charging to arrive at your destination earlier.

2) Quick acceleration was discussed a bit earlier. But the short version is... it really doesn't have much effect. There may be some, but, its sort of not a big issue if you decide to "race" to 60mph to impress some friends, or just liesurely get there. There will be other wear (like tires), but in terms of battery used to get to 60mph, its not really going to be enough different to care for most people (if any).

3) There are three types of charging.

• Level 3 (fast charging), which functions close to how a fuel pump at a gas station works. Basically only used by EV owners if they can't charge at home, or are on a road trip (and also way more expensive than charging at home).
• Level 2. This is "the fastest charging you can do at home".
  • Level 2 charging speeds vary depending on the vehicle used, and the power you give the charger, but think of it as "it can charge any EV overnight".
    • You can think of it as adding somewhere between ~20-50 miles of range, per hour depending on vehicle/charging speeds.
  • It uses 240v, which means that if you happen to have a handy 240v plug, or panel, its not too hard to add one.
  • The chargers cost ~$350-600 or so, in addition to any costs you may have getting them wired in (maybe $500-1000 depending on if you have to hire an electrician, do inspections, etc).
• Level 1. This is the slowest charging you can do.
  • It uses a standard 120v household outlet
  • Many vehicles come with a level 1 charger
  • Most vehicles take 2-4 days to charge from 0% - 100% with this style of charging.
  • You can think of it adding ~3-4 miles of range to the vehicle, per hour.
  • Which means if you have a short local commute, you could totally charge with Level 1 charging, and be fine.

Most EV owners end up with a Level 2 charger, but Level 1 is more useful than people think. I have a friend who bought an EV locally, and used a Level 1 charger for the first 6 weeks or so for their daily household errands/school dropoffs/etc, and it was able to keep up with the demand/and gain charge over time. But he did eventually install an Level 2 charger, as it gives you more flexibility.

Thanks Logan!!

 

[RodorW]

Just as a lot side note here. Using the MyChevrolet app to plan a route if it uses the interstate it bases it’s estimations of range on various factors, distance, elevation, weather conditions, but an average speed of 73MPH

 

[strider]

I actually still think multi-speed transmissions do seem to still be things that we may see more of in the future for EV's. Particularly for the offroading EV's like the scout (functioning more or less like a transfer case), to help reduce the current draw needs for serious offroading by mechanical advantage. Both Rivian, and Jeep have patented solutions for this (Here, and Here). It may also be thing for highway use at some point as well (Only Audi/Porsche have really used it so far, but Mercedes is exploring it as well). But I know I'm in the tiny minority here.

After Tesla failed to make an EV transmission work back in 2008 (and it wasn't just them, Borg Warner spent a ton of time and energy working with them on it) I had given up on the idea. I was shocked and impressed that Porsche was able to do it. We'll have to see if others go this route. I am sure they looked at (and tore down) the Taycan to see how it worked but have not decided it's worth it. Motor tech is also continuing to improve by minimizing back-EMF which expands the useful rpm range. Companies are also using different gearing in the front and rear motors and can optimize that way (update: I just saw your reply mentioning this after I posted).

It's definitely interesting to be a part of it. Let's face it, the ICE world is a snooze-fest. There hasn't been new tech there in ages....

 

[strider]

This is probably a dumb question, and has probably been answered before in this or other posts, but I'm a newb to EVs.

It seems logical, but is the range effected by how fast you drive, and how long you drive at fast speeds? Say travelling at 80mph on a road trip, does that take the range down by a lot? Similarly, if you just do quick accelerations because you want to impress your friend, if you do that several times over during a drive, will that kill your range?

Side question, I don't currently have any charging apparatus at home to charge an EV. Is this an additional cost I would need to purchase before the vehicle? Would there be some proprietary charging hardware I would need to have installed by Scout?

Just to add some color to Logan's thoughts. No issue at all with rapid acceleration, other than eating tires. What damages Li-Ion packs is heat. Above 104F begins causing permanent damage. This is why laptops, phones, and other devices batteries don't last - they have poor thermal management. Automotive batteries (since the original Leaf anyway) have active thermal management (liquid cooling) to make sure the batteries stay within their limits. If the batteries start getting too hot the car will automatically decrease available power to keep things where they need to be. So go on, enjoy the torque - that's why you buy an EV.

As for charging, you will want some kind of 240V connection in your garage. As Logan stated this is called Level 2 charging. Many vehicles come with a Level 1 (120V) and Level 2 (240V) "charger." Technically this is called an EVSE (Electric Vehicle Service Equipment) as the actual charger, the thing that converts AC from the wall into DC for the battery, is inside the car all the time. Typically there is a single EVSE cable that has swappable plugs depending on what you're plugging into. The most common are NEMA 5-15 (normal 120V plug) and NEMA 14-50 (240V 50A plug used by RVs and electric ranges). But you can get other plugs like a 14-30 which is what electric clothes dryers use. So it all depends on what you have in your garage. If you don't drive much you could survive on Level 1 but most people get some kind of Level 2. The amperage will depend on what your panel can handle. As I said, 50A is normal but if you have your washer/dryer in the garage already, you can share that dryer outlet (just set the car to charge in the middle of the night and don't quell your insomnia by doing laundry ).

Lastly, they do make dedicated, or hard-wired EVSEs. Those do allow you charge slightly faster due to 50A being the largest plug available in the US. Hard-wired EVSEs typically allow you to go up to 60A. Finally, many plug-in EVSEs limit you to 32A continuous out of safety concerns on the plug getting hot.

That being said, a 14-50 would get you a full charge for a Scout BEV in about 10 hours (Harvester in half that). Most people don't run their EVs down to 0 so it would be less than that. Figure about 30mph for a 14-50 plug and 3mph for 120V. That is generally plenty for normal use.I have been using 14-50 (and sometimes smaller plugs when I lived in older homes and the panel wouldn't handle 50A without a major revamp) and have never had an issue.

Finally, I will say that this seems overwhelming but that's only because it is new. Think about all of the "common knowledge" regarding ICEs (oil and air filters, spark plugs, timing, O2 sensors, and on and on). That knowledge will be replaced by knowledge about electricity with the bonus that you will know things that can help you work on your house!

 

[Mousehunter]

Virtually all vehicles show diminishing range with speed. It becomes partly an accounting problem. Cost/Benifit. Most vehicles will go longer on a tank at 15mph than 75 - but we are willing to pay for the extra gas to get to our destinations 5x as quickly.

I seam to recall different studies on heat and degradation. Battery tech is improving, thermal management is improving. Just a quick google showed that battery degradation in heat in Texas should only cost about 1% a year. So after 10 years - your 350 mile battery will probably take a 70 or so mile hit on average (possibly less with advances in batteries and cooling), while Texas will push that to 100 miles. But 250 mile range is still a fairly usable vehicle - just not the greatest for long road trips.

 

[nolen]

what's the difference between the Superchargers and the other types of chargers you can go to? I know someone who says that Logan UT only has one charger because that's how many Superchargers they have and only those count for them

 

[RodorW]

Do you mean Tesla Superchargers compared to other DC Fast Chargers or do you mean any DCFC (L3) Vs Destination Chargers (L2)

 

[bwdavis7]

what's the difference between the Superchargers and the other types of chargers you can go to? I know someone who says that Logan UT only has one charger because that's how many Superchargers they have and only those count for them

I'm finding that the words aren't that helpful for me. I prefer to know the power output of the EVSE in kilowatts. @SpaceEVDriver has several posts that are very helpful for learning about this subject.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

what's the difference between the Superchargers and the other types of chargers you can go to? I know someone who says that Logan UT only has one charger because that's how many Superchargers they have and only those count for them

“Supercharger” is a brand name for DC Fast Charger. About half of Superchargers are available to cars that aren’t brand-T. The others are only available to brand-T.

DC Fast Chargers (abbreviated DCFC) is a category of charging stations that includes Superchargers, but is not limited to those.

Most DCFCs use a plug called CCS1.
All Superchargers have a plug called NACS. Some have a built-in adapter for NACS to CCS1.

If someone is limiting themselves to Superchargers, then they’re limiting themselves to fewer than 1/3 of all DCFCs that are available in North America.

• There are about 17,576 DCFC stations with about 78,584 plugs available to the public in the US and Canada.
  • Of those, there are about 14,123 CCS1 stations and 38,173 plugs using CCS1.
  • And about 4,734 stations and 42,875 plugs using NACS.
  • Of those with NACS, there are about 3,334 brand-T Supercharger stations and 39,993 plugs.
    • But, again, not all Superchargers are available to every EV. About 800 of the Supercharger stations (8,029 plugs) are Version 2 and don’t use the CCS1 protocol internally so are not available to non-brand-T vehicles. Some Version 3 are also not available to non-brand-T EVs.

 

[cyure]

“Supercharger” is a brand name for DC Fast Charger. About half of Superchargers are available to cars that aren’t brand-T. The others are only available to brand-T.

DC Fast Chargers (abbreviated DCFC) is a category of charging stations that includes Superchargers, but is not limited to those.

Most DCFCs use a plug called CCS1.
All Superchargers have a plug called NACS. Some have a built-in adapter for NACS to CCS1.

If someone is limiting themselves to Superchargers, then they’re limiting themselves to fewer than 1/3 of all DCFCs that are available in North America.

• There are about 17,576 DCFC stations with about 78,584 plugs available to the public in the US and Canada.
  • Of those, there are about 14,123 DCFC stations with and 38,173 plugs using CCS1.
  • And about 4,734 stations and 42,875 plugs using NACS.
  • There are about 3,334 brand-T Supercharger stations and 39,993 plugs.
    • But, again, not all Superchargers are available to every EV. About 800 of the Supercharger stations are Version 2 and don’t use the CCS1 protocol internally so are not available to non-brand-T vehicles. Some Version 3 are also not available to non-brand-T EVs.

So when I put in my trip in either the Scout UX or a charger app will it filter out chargers that are not compatible?

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

Regarding charging speed.

Unless you have no choice, you want to limit your charging on DCFCs to road tripping or other times when you really NEED a quick charge. They’re expensive and they’re limited in supply.

There are 78,300 Level 2 charging stations in the US and Canada, compared with the 17,576 DCFCs.
Those 78,300 Level 2 charging stations sport 204,460 plugs. Of those 204,460 plugs, 191,647 are J1772 plugs and about 14,906 are NACS plugs. The rest are other types, usually CHADEMO.

So if you can wait a few hours (you’re shopping, etc, for example), or you don’t need a lot of charge, choose a Level 2 charger. It’ll usually be cheaper and it’ll usually be easier to find.

So when I put in my trip in either the Scout UX or a charger app will it filter out chargers that are not compatible?

Most built-in mapping applications will filter out the chargers that aren’t good for your vehicle, but it probably won’t be perfect. And some will filter out more than they should. This is a major limitation of charging station finder apps. Not every charging station is registered with the federal database, not every charging station is properly registered, and not every app uses the federal database. The federal database is still the most comprehensive database, but it is imperfect.