Help me decide BEV or EREV

[SpaceEVDriver]

I don't have a good idea, but we can make some educated guesses and build an estimate.

Let's assume someone gets 85% of the EPA range estimate at 60 mph.

0.85 * 500 = 425 miles total.
0.85 * 350 = ~300 miles on gas.

Assuming a 15 gallon tank, that's 300 miles / 15 gallons = 20 mpg. The BYD Shark sees something similar.

And---because we chose 60 mph = 1 mile / minute---it's also 300 minutes / 15 gallons = 20 minutes per gallon. Or 3 gallons per hour at highway speeds.

If the tank is a 10 gallon tank for the same range, it's 30 minutes per gallon, or 2 gallons per hour. A smaller number is better here.

If it's a 20 gallon tank for the same range, it's 15 minutes per gallon, 4 gallons per hour.

If the range is 350 instead of 300 at 60 mph, then things improve by about 16% or 1/6th.

Expanding on this a bit...

If you assume something similar (20 mpg for a modern gassy truck), and a 20 gallon tank. Also assume the standard 5,000 miles service interval.

5000 miles / 60 miles/hr =~ 83 hours.

I would guess the Harvester genset will have a service interval of around 100 hours or 6000 miles. Or maybe up to 7500 miles/125 hours/6 months.

 

[R1TVT]

Expanding on this a bit...

If you assume something similar (20 mpg for a modern gassy truck), and a 20 gallon tank. Also assume the standard 5,000 miles service interval.

5000 miles / 60 miles/hr =~ 83 hours.

I would guess the Harvester genset will have a service interval of around 100 hours or 6000 miles. Or maybe up to 7500 miles/125 hours/6 months.

Agreed. And considering other applications and similar engine and generator considerations, I was thinking 100-hour service intervals would make sense in this case too. TBD!

 

[LastDayScout]

Expanding on this a bit...

If you assume something similar (20 mpg for a modern gassy truck), and a 20 gallon tank. Also assume the standard 5,000 miles service interval.

5000 miles / 60 miles/hr =~ 83 hours.

I would guess the Harvester genset will have a service interval of around 100 hours or 6000 miles. Or maybe up to 7500 miles/125 hours/6 months.

That seems a little low. But I’m basing this on Kubota engine oil change intervals. Some of those are as much as 500 hours now. I can see it being something like 200 hours or once per year.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

That seems a little low. But I’m basing this on Kubota engine oil change intervals. Some of those are as much as 500 hours now. I can see it being something like 200 hours or once per year.

I don’t think we can use tractors as the example. The parameter space of efficiency vs power vs longevity is a different set of trade-offs for tractors vs gensets. We might be able to use small diesel-electric hybrid locomotives, but I’m not familiar with their trade-offs.

Most gasoline generators have a service interval of 50 to 100 hours, and ones in high-temperature operations have higher frequencies. I think a well-designed genset engine with well-designed thermal management could get away with 200 hours service interval, but it would need to have its RPM set so it’s in the perfect part of the power band for longevity, which would then set up a trade-off between service interval, fuel efficiency, and power output (range). Maximum efficiency for a generator is generally in the 50% to 80% load. But running at 50% load means a bigger engine and a more frequent service interval if you want to be able to run of out gas before you run out of battery as the quote from Jamie goes.

I think it’s safe to say it’ll be between 100-200 hours, with my guess closer to 125 hours.

 

[LastDayScout]

I don’t think we can use tractors as the example. The parameter space of efficiency vs power vs longevity is a different set of trade-offs for tractors vs gensets. We might be able to use small diesel-electric hybrid locomotives, but I’m not familiar with their trade-offs.

Most gasoline generators have a service interval of 50 to 100 hours, and ones in high-temperature operations have higher frequencies. I think a well-designed genset engine with well-designed thermal management could get away with 200 hours service interval, but it would need to have its RPM set so it’s in the perfect part of the power band for longevity, which would then set up a trade-off between service interval, fuel efficiency, and power output (range). Maximum efficiency for a generator is generally in the 50% to 80% load. But running at 50% load means a bigger engine and a more frequent service interval if you want to be able to run of out gas before you run out of battery as the quote from Jamie goes.

I think it’s safe to say it’ll be between 100-200 hours, with my guess closer to 125 hours.

Fair point. Completely different duty cycle and environment. Also the relative amount of oil capacity to displacement makes a difference too. I doubt it would have a very large oil pan though due to space constraints. That is unless it is dry sump and then who knows what the limitations are for their chosen location. I am really only interested in this discussion due to my curiosity about the engineering and compromises they have to make.

 

[Gottesacker]

I would guess the Harvester genset will have a service interval of around 100 hours or 6000 miles. Or maybe up to 7500 miles/125 hours/6 months.

I would think the service interval would be toward that higher end of 7500/6 months. Which really isn't THAT crazy of a deal. Everyone makes a big deal about the maintenance costs, but if we're talking service 1-3 times a year that's next to nothing, and on an I4 no less. There's still no transmission to worry about, the overall engine setup should be simpler so I really think service on it won't be that bad. And if they really gear this toward the DIYer as they seem to indicate, then the costs could be even lower, if one is willing to do a little greasy work once in a great while. Is it more than the EV? Sure, it is, but it's not like it should cost $10k a year in service. We're talking like $200-300 tops per year.

What I think will be interesting is to see how states handle registering EREVs. I know many states have an extra cost at registration for EVs due to no gas-tax collected, so I'm curious if EREVs will fall into that, or be exempt due to their gas use.

 

[RodorW]

I would think the service interval would be toward that higher end of 7500/6 months. Which really isn't THAT crazy of a deal. Everyone makes a big deal about the maintenance costs, but if we're talking service 1-3 times a year that's next to nothing, and on an I4 no less. There's still no transmission to worry about, the overall engine setup should be simpler so I really think service on it won't be that bad. And if they really gear this toward the DIYer as they seem to indicate, then the costs could be even lower, if one is willing to do a little greasy work once in a great while. Is it more than the EV? Sure, it is, but it's not like it should cost $10k a year in service. We're talking like $200-300 tops per year.

What I think will be interesting is to see how states handle registering EREVs. I know many states have an extra cost at registration for EVs due to no gas-tax collected, so I'm curious if EREVs will fall into that, or be exempt due to their gas use.

Our volt is $150 registration
Our Bolt is $280
The Gas cars $60

 

[J Alynn]

Here’s a thought I just had based on very early conversations. One comment was you can take spare fuel and give someone who ran out of gas but you can’t help give a “charge” to another EV (not easily-or maybe easier than I think). But what if harvesters had a pressure pump that connected to air compressor and you could pump fuel from your harvester to another scout so if trail issue or roadside issue occurred you could help a stranded ICE driver? Might appeal to the community mindset of Scout as well?

 

[THil08]

I'm still just amazed they'll be able to fit a whole EA888 engine back there (pretty sure it's not going to be the lower power EA211). All in that engine is just under 300lbs however as an EREV I'm sure there are a number of accessories you can remove making it a bit lighter. This matters because according to their original diagrams, the engine will be sitting behind the rear axle and I doubt there would be space to move it up any further.
View attachment 13509
I'm on my second EA888 engine and time has shown VW is not great at making water cooled systems for cars, especially water pumps, so I'm very curious how Scout will deliver a reliable system here in regards to cooling. BTW outside of cooling it's a fantastic and durable power plant.

Theres a patent on cooling. If someone can find that would be great lol. I think they are using some crazy concept system

 

[THil08]

Here’s a thought I just had based on very early conversations. One comment was you can take spare fuel and give someone who ran out of gas but you can’t help give a “charge” to another EV (not easily-or maybe easier than I think). But what if harvesters had a pressure pump that connected to air compressor and you could pump fuel from your harvester to another scout so if trail issue or roadside issue occurred you could help a stranded ICE driver? Might appeal to the community mindset of Scout as well?

Im not giving gas away. That shit is liquid gold.

 

[BartMan Terra Total EV]

Im not giving gas away. That shit is liquid gold.

Liquid gold i saw someone on TV the other day say gas is $ 1.95 a gallon.

 

[Mousehunter]

I think 1 year or 100hrs is a pretty common service interval on generators. That said, the 100hrs is so that the generator will be useful in an emergency - I think our whole house mentions that the interval can be stretched to 200hrs during an emergency. But that is still the rough equivalent to a 10k mile oil change.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

Here’s a thought I just had based on very early conversations. One comment was you can take spare fuel and give someone who ran out of gas but you can’t help give a “charge” to another EV (not easily-or maybe easier than I think). But what if harvesters had a pressure pump that connected to air compressor and you could pump fuel from your harvester to another scout so if trail issue or roadside issue occurred you could help a stranded ICE driver? Might appeal to the community mindset of Scout as well?

If the donor vehicle is set up for it, it’s super easy to donate extra electricity.
If you bring along a 5 kWh power station, it’s even easier to provide a bit of extra charge.

I’ve given spare charge to friends who were low. In one case, they called me from the road and asked if I could give them a charge because they weren’t sure they would make it home. They had just finished clearing out the home of their late mother and hadn’t been thinking clearly when they left for home. The weather in the valley was 20+ degrees warmer than on the mountain. They probably could have made it, but they wanted to be sure. There were no fast chargers between where they were and home. So I met them at a convenience store near the highway and gave them a quick 20-minute charge to give them just a few extra miles to make it home.

These days, giving spare electricity is significantly easier than giving spare gasoline if you don’t carry extra gas in a jerry can. With the anti-siphon mechanisms on modern vehicles, it’s almost impossible to pull gas from a vehicle. So you’d have to purchase some in a spare container. Not a big deal, but if you’re not driving a truck with storage that’s not in the cabin, then you have to store that container inside your vehicle while you’re transporting it to help your friend and you get to breathe the fumes the entire time. I’ve done that enough I’d never do it again.

The Terra will have the 240 Volt receptacle and will be able to provide a charge to another EV.
If the Traveler comes with a 240 Volt receptale, then it could also do this without putting toxic chemicals in the cabin of your vehicle.

 

[BartMan Terra Total EV]

If the donor vehicle is set up for it, it’s super easy to donate extra electricity.
If you bring along a 5 kWh power station, it’s even easier to provide a bit of extra charge.

I’ve given spare charge to friends who were low. In one case, they called me from the road and asked if I could give them a charge because they weren’t sure they would make it home. They had just finished clearing out the home of their late mother and hadn’t been thinking clearly when they left for home. The weather in the valley was 20+ degrees warmer than on the mountain. They probably could have made it, but they wanted to be sure. There were no fast chargers between where they were and home. So I met them at a convenience store near the highway and gave them a quick 20-minute charge to give them just a few extra miles to make it home.

These days, giving spare electricity is significantly easier than giving spare gasoline if you don’t carry extra gas in a jerry can. With the anti-siphon mechanisms on modern vehicles, it’s almost impossible to pull gas from a vehicle. So you’d have to purchase some in a spare container. Not a big deal, but if you’re not driving a truck with storage that’s not in the cabin, then you have to store that container inside your vehicle while you’re transporting it to help your friend and you get to breathe the fumes the entire time. I’ve done that enough I’d never do it again.

The Terra will have the 240 Volt receptacle and will be able to provide a charge to another EV.
If the Traveler comes with a 240 Volt receptale, then it could also do this without putting toxic chemicals in the cabin of your vehicle.

View attachment 13534

This is yet another way that the dreaded range anxiety can be reduced so folks can buy EVs and know they are the future regardless of the set backs provided by the current administration.

 

[Variable430]

Without divulging any numbers, when I was talking to Jaime at the event in NYC last September, he said something to the effect that they achieved better than expected results with the aerodynamics. Can't remember if this was also shared on the forum.

That should help with efficiency.

A lot will also depend on accessories and wheel/tire packages. We have an i4 and going from 19s to 20in wheels was a 20 mile range drag. Now think about a roof rack and everything from 33-37 in tires each of which will have an impact on range. Lots to unpack once more details become available. I was excited to hear (from chatting at the LA auto show) that they are actively looking at paddle based regen which I think would be a huge benefit for driver engagement.

 

[JBernhardFL]

I have a BEV currently. I live in South Florida. We had power out for four days two years ago due to a hurricaine (we had only outer bands not even the full force ) I have a generator but the TDP is >5 % so I can’t use it to charge my BEV. I am primarily looking at EREV now but would love to be only BEV

 

[BartMan Terra Total EV]

A lot will also depend on accessories and wheel/tire packages. We have an i4 and going from 19s to 20in wheels was a 20 mile range drag. Now think about a roof rack and everything from 33-37 in tires each of which will have an impact on range. Lots to unpack once more details become available. I was excited to hear (from chatting at the LA auto show) that they are actively looking at paddle based regen which I think would be a huge benefit for driver engagement.

Any idea how much range benefits from having an computer controlled air oil suspension that lowers on freeway and raises off road?

 

[LastDayScout]

Any idea how much range benefits from having an computer controlled air oil suspension that lowers on freeway and raises off road?

With the help of Gemini.
Based on available data, the Rivian R1S drag coefficient is approximately 0.30 to 0.32 in its "Low" or "Lowest" (efficient) ride height setting, while in the "Standard" or "Normal" setting, the is higher. Switching from Standard to Low ride height typically yields an efficiency gain of approximately 3% to 5% at highway speeds (70+ mph). While the physical drag reduction is measurable, the real-world impact on your range is relatively minor compared to other factors like speed or wheel choice.

So, my take is that it is certainly a factor. But, it has to work in conjunction with tire choice, wheel choice, junk you are hauling around choices and your right foot on the go pedal.

 

[chucchinchilla]

Theres a patent on cooling. If someone can find that would be great lol. I think they are using some crazy concept system

As someone who has spent their life around VW Group vehicles all of which had coolant issues not counting the air cooled, this makes me a bit nervous....this on top of the fact we're looking at a 100% brand new vehicle that's bound to have first year kinks that need to be ironed out (like anybody else) and...yeah.

 

[R1TVT]

Any idea how much range benefits from having an computer controlled air oil suspension that lowers on freeway and raises off road?

I don't even bother lowering on the HWY. The efficiency gains are so small, that they would not impact my next charging stop. Lowering also creates more negative camber over longer distances, so I only lower if I need to help someone get in or out of the truck now. Its just not worth the uneven tire wear to me.