The gas tank needs to be bigger on the Harvester models

[JoeSchmoe]

I'm really excited that Scout is finally making a proper EREV truck and suv for the American market. I think Ford and GM should have launched their EV trucks with an EREV option from the beginning. The primary use case of my current Honda Ridgeline is to tow a small 14ft ,~2000 pound camper. It gets around 25 mpg normally on the highway and about 10-12 towing the trailer. High speed plus the aero drag of a trailer causes terrible fuel economy. We have high speed limits out west up to 80mph so I usually have to go at least 70 to not be run off the road. It has a 20 gallon gas tank which means I can only realistically go about 170 miles between fill ups while towing without getting super nervous especially if the gas stations are 30+ miles apart in the middle of nowhere.

If the EREV Scouts are going to get around 150 miles of EV range then 350 miles on the 15 gallon tank, that equates to 23mpg which should end up with the same 10-12 mpg when towing at highway speeds. The 15 gallon tank is really going to be a problem for longer drives. Sure I'd get about 75 miles towing in EV mode from the battery, but after that, if I'm just relying on gas for the rest of the trip, I only have a towing range of ~150-180 miles. You don't want to run until empty and with gas stations 30+ miles apart that makes your realistic towing range between stops close to 120 miles. This range limitation is already annoying in my gas truck with a 20 gallon tank. It's going to be much worse with only a 15 gallon tank. Having the gas can option is nice, but for regular trips, I don't want to have to pull over and use the gas can on the side of the road. That should only be for emergencies or extended off grid camping trips.

Please make the gas tank 25 gallons or bigger for those of us that tow.

 

[BeerParty]

I can talk to the team to better clarify this. I reads fine to me, but I'm a bit too close to it.

The full battery electric vehicle gets a projected 350 miles of range.
The Harvester Range Extender gives you up to 150 miles of full battery electric range and range gets extended an additional 350 miles thanks to the onboard gasoline generator.

If you could get them to update the Scout web site to say this, that would be a great help. I keep correcting people online and they respond "look at this video" or "look at their web site". So if I could point them to the specific place on the web site where it has this explicit "up to" mileage for battery range of the Harvester, I could clear up a bunch of misinformation I see.

 

[BeerParty]

Yeah, but many people aren’t willing to give the Electric side of things a chance, running those lines Rex bmws without a single charge or buying a volt and never once charging it. But that misses the biggest selling point of EV to me, which is the convenience of refueling at home and the difference in fuel costs for gas and electric. Our volt since we’ve had it has only been to the gas twice and we’ve had it for a year and a half. It left a lot at half a tank. We stopped to top it off and then we refilled it a couple of months ago from a quarter tank.

There will always be people that think they know better and will do what they want. I say let them. It isn't my job to tell them what is the "right way" to do things. With the Scout Harvester, the people that do know how to take advantage of the battery for the majority of their driving but need the Harvester for their specific situation (even if that situation is range anxiety) can get one. If there are people that use it as a gas vehicle, you can console yourself with the knowledge that they are just hurting themselves (by spending more money on gas and maintenance then they need to).

 

[LonnyMacD]

From my view when I was deciding for my goals a couple of weeks ago I was looking at the SilveradoEV and Terra. There’s obviously a lot more out there about the SilveradoEV since it’s a production vehicle, but as I was looking at anything I could find, I was under the impression it was 350 battery for both BEV and Harvester and I was leaning harvester. But In a TFL video I heard the “150 Battery” mentioned wry casually and had to listen a couple of times, and referenced the site but it doesn’t seem very clear on the site. I ultimately prefer full BEV regardless, but when I was under the presumption it was 350 EV+150 Harvester I was willing to consider it for the times I would want to travel 500+ miles as quickly as possible for trails and camping with friends. However my daily mileage can easily exceed 150 miles that would mean running the harvester almost daily which would increase the chance for more maintenance needs and more fuel costs.

Couldn’t have said it better myself. I am one that is in the same position.

 

[bakdraft8231]

yes thought it was 350ev and 150gas harvester

 

[mattbrew]

I can talk to the team to better clarify this. I reads fine to me, but I'm a bit too close to it.

The full battery electric vehicle gets a projected 350 miles of range.
The Harvester Range Extender gives you up to 150 miles of full battery electric range and range gets extended an additional 350 miles thanks to the onboard gasoline generator.

The average person drives 30-40 miles per day. 150 miles of pure BEV range cover's most people's daily drives. But if you jump on the highway for an extended trip, the gasoline generator will kick on to help add range and stay ahead of a low state of charge. In most normal uses you should run out of fuel before you run out of battery. So you will be able to pull into a gas station, fuel up and keep driving. You can also pull over and charge with the gasoline generator or charge off the generator when you are at a campsite for an extended period. The Range Extender also functions offroad while driving.

So the range extender will run the whole 500 miles.

 

[Chaz26]

So the range extender will run the whole 500 miles.

How I read it is, if you have 100% battery and a full tank of gas it will do the 500 miles. So maybe it would be electric only to say 50% and go 75 miles on electric only. Then the gas range extender kicks in to keep it around 50% of charge for the next 350 miles and if it runs out of gas and you don't fill up it will run on electric until that runs out of battery which would be another 75 miles to get the 500 miles total. My guess is if you never wanted to charge then you could do 350 miles between fill ups without depleting any battery (assuming normal driving conditions and no heavy towing etc.).

 

[mattbrew]

How I read it is, if you have 100% battery and a full tank of gas it will do the 500 miles. So maybe it would be electric only to say 50% and go 75 miles on electric only. Then the gas range extender kicks in to keep it around 50% of charge for the next 350 miles and if it runs out of gas and you don't fill up it will run on electric until that runs out of battery which would be another 75 miles to get the 500 miles total. My guess is if you never wanted to charge then you could do 350 miles between fill ups without depleting any battery (assuming normal driving conditions and no heavy towing etc.).

Read it again and see if you still think the same:
“But if you jump on the highway for an extended trip, the gasoline generator will kick on to help add range and stay ahead of a low state of charge.”

 

[Chaz26]

Read it again and see if you still think the same:
“But if you jump on the highway for an extended trip, the gasoline generator will kick on to help add range and stay ahead of a low state of charge.”

That's still how I think it will be: "In most normal uses you should run out of fuel before you run out of battery." That to me means the generator will try and keep the battery at a steady percentage until it runs out of gas, which would be around 350 miles of driving, then it would have to use whatever is left in the battery if you don't refuel. If you fill back up every 350 miles then it should just be gas and go, but you wouldn't be able to just fill up every 500 miles and be able to gas and go without sitting to charge the battery back up as well.

 

[LonnyMacD]

. .. . So we’re back to needing clarification on those specs.

 

[THil08]

I can talk to the team to better clarify this. I reads fine to me, but I'm a bit too close to it.

The full battery electric vehicle gets a projected 350 miles of range.
The Harvester Range Extender gives you up to 150 miles of full battery electric range and range gets extended an additional 350 miles thanks to the onboard gasoline generator.

The average person drives 30-40 miles per day. 150 miles of pure BEV range cover's most people's daily drives. But if you jump on the highway for an extended trip, the gasoline generator will kick on to help add range and stay ahead of a low state of charge. In most normal uses you should run out of fuel before you run out of battery. So you will be able to pull into a gas station, fuel up and keep driving. You can also pull over and charge with the gasoline generator or charge off the generator when you are at a campsite for an extended period. The Range Extender also functions offroad while driving.

Uncle J, can you dumb this down farther for us?

 

[LonnyMacD]

Uncle J, can you dumb this down farther for us?

. . . . And does this mean we can’t charge the battery while we’re driving?

 

[RodorW]

From what they’ve shown of the demo interface, you set a SOC that you want the harvester to kick on at, I would imagine from there it would try to replenish or maintain SOC for the remainder of the drive

 

[Jamie@ScoutMotors]

It won't be linear.

Depends completely (just like an ICE vehicle) on how you drive and where you drive. The efficiency of the engine generator completely depends on the loads and use of the vehicle. The engine can be used at any time to help charge the battery - parked, highway driving, around town driving, and offroad driving. The need to use it completely depends on the current use. Likewise, how far you can drive will depend on usage and loads. We will have to certify the vehicle for the EPA tests, but much like the EPA test, there could be scenarios where you could go even farther than the advertised amount or it could be less if you are driving 100mph with a giant 10,000 lbs brick on a trailer up an 8% grade. If you drive around town, engine use will be minimal since power from the battery pack is minimal. If you are driving 80mph on the highway for 3 hours, the generator is going to work harder to stay ahead of demand since the vehicle uses a lot of energy to move that fast through head winds.

So analyzing all this based on a fuel tank size we don't know, with a generator size we don't know, and a battery pack size and chemistry we don't know and an engine efficiency we don't know is really futile. Trust though that this forum will be one of the first places to find out answers to some of these questions as suppliers and final specs are locked down.

 

[dreamweaver]

It won't be linear.

Depends completely (just like an ICE vehicle) on how you drive and where you drive. The efficiency of the engine generator completely depends on the loads and use of the vehicle. The engine can be used at any time to help charge the battery - parked, highway driving, around town driving, and offroad driving. The need to use it completely depends on the current use. Likewise, how far you can drive will depend on usage and loads. We will have to certify the vehicle for the EPA tests, but much like the EPA test, there could be scenarios where you could go even farther than the advertised amount or it could be less if you are driving 100mph with a giant 10,000 lbs brick on a trailer up an 8% grade. If you drive around town, engine use will be minimal since power from the battery pack is minimal. If you are driving 80mph on the highway for 3 hours, the generator is going to work harder to stay ahead of demand since the vehicle uses a lot of energy to move that fast through head winds.

So analyzing all this based on a fuel tank size we don't know, with a generator size we don't know, and a battery pack size and chemistry we don't know and an engine efficiency we don't know is really futile. Trust though that this forum will be one of the first places to find out answers to some of these questions as suppliers and final specs are locked down.

That you for the clarity.

 

[R1TVT]

Its probably also important to consider how you drive and what external and environmental conditions will impact range - including payload, towing, temp, drag, etc. Of course this is just like any ICE vehicle and just like any EV vehicle when looking at efficiency.

500 miles of range is a lot of range. It is also a RANGE ESTIMATE - a number that will be dependent upon "normal driving conditions".

The way I think of the Harvester is different (and, I may be wrong), but I think of it as a RANGE OPTIMIZER. Meaning, if you leave your house with a full battery and a full gas tank for a 500+ mile trip and you start driving, I would NOT expect the Harvester engine to turn on immediately. Why? There really is no room for more juice at the start of the trip with batteries topped, and with thermal conditions and a charge curve (still unknown at this time) you may be REDUCING your range by trying to force electrons into a full battery pack just as they start to get depleted. Charging with the Harvester may be much more efficient 20 miles into your trip (and if it is, maybe it saves you GAS).

There is complexity here, and a lot of data that needs consideration to optimize range

If the SW and BMS and Harvester are all talking to each (which we should expect) the Harvester will understand the OPTIMIZED time to start onboard charging based on projected travel and external conditions and driver behavior. The Harvester should kick on when the battery drops to X% to help keep up with power loss and this theoretically will allow you to more efficiently charge.

Once you add people (weight), headwind (more drag), lower temp / elevation (less efficiency), trailer (weight & drag), payload / gear (additional weight), external accessories (weight & drag), snow, sand, etc. you range will be adjusted downward accordingly during your drive, and the Harvester will likely run full-time to keep up after XX number of miles and when the battery is ready to accept electrons efficiently.

Conversely, if you are traveling down a mountain, regen is sending electrons back the the battery pack, and the air temps are warming, I would NOT expect the Harvester to be running at all.

(EDIT - Looks like Jamie was typing basically the Scout version of my answer while I was typing)

 

[J Alynn]

It won't be linear.

Depends completely (just like an ICE vehicle) on how you drive and where you drive. The efficiency of the engine generator completely depends on the loads and use of the vehicle. The engine can be used at any time to help charge the battery - parked, highway driving, around town driving, and offroad driving. The need to use it completely depends on the current use. Likewise, how far you can drive will depend on usage and loads. We will have to certify the vehicle for the EPA tests, but much like the EPA test, there could be scenarios where you could go even farther than the advertised amount or it could be less if you are driving 100mph with a giant 10,000 lbs brick on a trailer up an 8% grade. If you drive around town, engine use will be minimal since power from the battery pack is minimal. If you are driving 80mph on the highway for 3 hours, the generator is going to work harder to stay ahead of demand since the vehicle uses a lot of energy to move that fast through head winds.

So analyzing all this based on a fuel tank size we don't know, with a generator size we don't know, and a battery pack size and chemistry we don't know and an engine efficiency we don't know is really futile. Trust though that this forum will be one of the first places to find out answers to some of these questions as suppliers and final specs are locked down.

So based on this response what you are saying is the harvester can tow 10,000 lbs (of bricks)

 

[J Alynn]

Its probably also important to consider how you drive and what external and environmental conditions will impact range - including payload, towing, temp, drag, etc. Of course this is just like any ICE vehicle and just like any EV vehicle when looking at efficiency.

500 miles of range is a lot of range. It is also a RANGE ESTIMATE - a number that will be dependent upon "normal driving conditions".

The way I think of the Harvester is different (and, I may be wrong), but I think of it as a RANGE OPTIMIZER. Meaning, if you leave your house with a full battery and a full gas tank for a 500+ mile trip and you start driving, I would NOT expect the Harvester engine to turn on immediately. Why? There really is no room for more juice at the start of the trip with batteries topped, and with thermal conditions and a charge curve (still unknown at this time) you may be REDUCING your range by trying to force electrons into a full battery pack just as they start to get depleted. Charging with the Harvester may be much more efficient 20 miles into your trip (and if it is, maybe it saves you GAS).

There is complexity here, and a lot of data that needs consideration to optimize range

If the SW and BMS and Harvester are all talking to each (which we should expect) the Harvester will understand the OPTIMIZED time to start onboard charging based on projected travel and external conditions and driver behavior. The Harvester should kick on when the battery drops to X% to help keep up with power loss and this theoretically will allow you to more efficiently charge.

Once you add people (weight), headwind (more drag), lower temp / elevation (less efficiency), trailer (weight & drag), payload / gear (additional weight), external accessories (weight & drag), snow, sand, etc. you range will be adjusted downward accordingly during your drive, and the Harvester will likely run full-time to keep up after XX number of miles and when the battery is ready to accept electrons efficiently.

Conversely, if you are traveling down a mountain, regen is sending electrons back the the battery pack, and the air temps are warming, I would NOT expect the Harvester to be running at all.

(EDIT - Looks like Jamie was typing basically the Scout version of my answer while I was typing)

BMS-battery manage system ???

 

[dreamweaver]

So based on this response what you are saying is the harvester can tow 10,000 lbs (of bricks)

Only while driving 100mph.

 

[J Alynn]

Only while driving 100mph.

Fair point. I missed that!

 

[Mousehunter]

Scout will balance the tank size and battery size to what they consider optimal. Wanting a larger tank to tow further might not get the results you expect. If they size the generator for normal driving, it will not keep up with the load when towing a 10k lb brick behind the vehicle. If that puts you into a position of depleting the battery throughout the tow, the range when towing could be more limited by battery size than tank size. Moreover, towing capacity could easily be more limited by tongue weight than anything else.

Now sure, Scout could try to compete against the Ram Charger, focusing on towing rather than efficiency. But that is chasing a smaller market with a more expensive vehicle to purchase and operate. I think that market should be addressed (and I suspect the Lightning v2 will also address it), that does not make it the perfect market for this generation of Scout. Even if it involves ditching the frunk - but I have to wonder how many sales the Frunk gets vs how many towing an extra 5k lbs gets (ditching the frunk could move the Harvester forward, moving it's weight forward could give us more tongue weight).

Now I think the Harvester is trying to get people to buy EV's. It is a bridge vehicle - something that will help get people over range anxiety. It also will might bridge till we can get a Scout EV with a significantly longer range due to improvements in battery tech. Someday, EV's might charge as fast as the gas pump fills the tank. Someday, DC charging stations will be as common as gas pumps. Someday batteries will have more range than a large gas tank. Till then, the next best thing is convincing what is available is good enough. The Harvester can do that, or bridge the time till good enough is good enough for the rest of the market.
---
Just as a side note. Even if solid state becomes a real thing before production there will still be a compromise. Would the Scout be a better off road and on road vehicle if they took the weight savings instead of the extra range. Both is best, but honestly at this point it would still be a spectrum of one or the other. While choices would be nice, I bet using a cheaper battery, or using a lighter battery would help sales more than just getting more range that is rarely needed - and I would really like more range...