Question about Pedal Feel and Driving Characteristics

[travelinscout]

I have been into Scouts my whole life, and I am super excited about these!

I have 1 reservation for a Terra and one for the Traveler, and I have a question.

I recently drove an EV for the first time, and it was a Tesla Cyberbeast.

The one thing I hated about it was the way the "gas" pedal felt like a golf cart.

When you release the pedal to slow down, it felt like I was applying the brake aggressively, and totally lacked the normal 'coast to a stop' feel of a regular vehicle.

Does anyone know how Scout is addressing this? Will it feel the same?

Thanks!

 

[R1TVT]

Search regen and one-pedal driving. Tons of discussion about how it will / could/ would / should be implemented.

Did you adjust the strength of the regen when you were test driving? If you did not adjust the regen setting to low and it was set at high, then I would imagine that it would "feel" like it was braking, because it was slowing more rapidly. Not dissimilar from engine braking in a downshift. I love 1PD in the R1T, and it is likely different in the CT, but I have never driven a CT and never will. LOL.

 

[Jamie@ScoutMotors]

We will have adjustments for the amount of regen you want. This really should give you the most flexibility.

 

[chucchinchilla]

We will have adjustments for the amount of regen you want. This really should give you the most flexibility.

Will there be more options than standard VW Group D and B modes? I think standard B mode is a good beginner level, but would love something more aggressive, especially while traversing mountain roads or towing. Speaking of towing, using regen mode while towing is amazing btw. In a weird way it kind of cancels out the extra rolling due to more mass.

 

[Jamie@ScoutMotors]

Will there be more options than standard VW Group D and B modes? I think standard B mode is a good beginner level, but would love something more aggressive, especially while traversing mountain roads or towing. Speaking of towing, using regen mode while towing is amazing btw. In a weird way it kind of cancels out the extra rolling due to more mass.

My Q6 has D and B modes, but also has three different levels. Since we are using a heavy portion of Rivian-based software in the Scouts, I would expect that we'd tap into their system for regen. But honestly, it is still early and we probably have the ability to customize for our specific use.

 

[chucchinchilla]

My Q6 has D and B modes, but also has three different levels. Since we are using a heavy portion of Rivian-based software in the Scouts, I would expect that we'd tap into their system for regen. But honestly, it is still early and we probably have the ability to customize for our specific use.

I live in the SF Bay Area and run into people from the automotive industry all the time. Yesterday I met a really nice guy who works at the Rivian-VW JV in Palo Alto, having moved over here from Germany working at one of the VW Group brands. Without spilling beans, yes I walked away from that conversation with the same expectations you laid out, not only for Scout but the other group brands who are working on their respective projects at the Rivian office.

I'm very bullish on the Rivian-VW JV because it's more than just access to great software, it's access into a start-up mentality, access into independent thinking, access to moving quickly, and access to breaking down walls. It's the same reason why Ford set up shop in Long Beach and the same reason why Scout has a level of independence from VW. My hope is the VW Group employees take those learnings and that spirit back with them to Germany when they eventually return.

 

[Logan]

I have been into Scouts my whole life, and I am super excited about these!

I have 1 reservation for a Terra and one for the Traveler, and I have a question.

I recently drove an EV for the first time, and it was a Tesla Cyberbeast.

The one thing I hated about it was the way the "gas" pedal felt like a golf cart.

When you release the pedal to slow down, it felt like I was applying the brake aggressively, and totally lacked the normal 'coast to a stop' feel of a regular vehicle.

Does anyone know how Scout is addressing this? Will it feel the same?

Thanks!

I recently purchased my first EV. And FWIW, I also dislike the pedal feel of one pedal driving.

I did a test a week or two ago where on a few commutes to work, I stuck with either the heavy 1 pedal style regen, or a more "normal combustion vehicle with an automatic transmission" type regen. I tracked efficiency, and also driving experience.

At the end of the day... I still find that I like lighter regen better. Same with my wife. Although we only have 1000 miles of EV ownership under our belt so far.

There are some situations where I find one pedal driving better (low speed traffic where you're having to bounce between throttle pedal/brake pedal with normal creeping behavior). But, so far, in those cases, even better than 1 pedal driving, is adaptive cruise control (great in stop and go traffic).

As long as they offer blended braking that works well (IE, increase regen with brake pedal travel, until you reach max regen, then use friction brakes), and that they have both a "acts like a normal combustion vehicle with an automatic transmission" and a one pedal driving setting that has very good toe-in throttle control, then I think I'll be happy.

 

[cyure]

I recently purchased my first EV. And FWIW, I also dislike the pedal feel of one pedal driving.

I did a test a week or two ago where on a few commutes to work, I stuck with either the heavy 1 pedal style regen, or a more "normal combustion vehicle with an automatic transmission" type regen. I tracked efficiency, and also driving experience.

At the end of the day... I still find that I like lighter regen better. Same with my wife. Although we only have 1000 miles of EV ownership under our belt so far.

There are some situations where I find one pedal driving better (low speed traffic where you're having to bounce between throttle pedal/brake pedal with normal creeping behavior). But, so far, in those cases, even better than 1 pedal driving, is adaptive cruise control (great in stop and go traffic).

As long as they offer blended braking that works well (IE, increase regen with brake pedal travel, until you reach max regen, then use friction brakes), and that they have both a "acts like a normal combustion vehicle with an automatic transmission" and a one pedal driving setting that has very good toe-in throttle control, then I think I'll be happy.

Thanks for keeping us updated on your experiences.

 

[strider]

Search regen and one-pedal driving. Tons of discussion about how it will / could/ would / should be implemented.

Did you adjust the strength of the regen when you were test driving? If you did not adjust the regen setting to low and it was set at high, then I would imagine that it would "feel" like it was braking, because it was slowing more rapidly. Not dissimilar from engine braking in a downshift. I love 1PD in the R1T, and it is likely different in the CT, but I have never driven a CT and never will. LOL.

In the early days, Tesla offered a choice between standard (maximum) and low regen. They also allowed you to select how it would behave at a stop, Creep (like an automatic ICE) or Hold. Nowadays however, there are no choices. All cars are set to max regen and Hold. The accelerator only controls the motors (acceleration or regen) and the brakes only control the friction brakes. I find elegance in the simplicity (I have never driven a car that seamlessly blends regen on the brake pedal but I haven't driven that many new EV/hybrids). I know a few of you have had bad test drive experiences but IMO you will get used to it very quickly. I can literally go days without touching the brake pedal. It will regen all the way to a "limo stop," hold itself there until I want to go, then I just press the accelerator again. I can go as fast or as slow as I want by just moving my foot slightly.

Anyway, I know that different people want different things and I am open to making a car that works best for everyone (and allows people settings that range from "drives like an ICE" to "OPD" so they can evolve at their own pace). But for me, not having a true OPD mode that regens all the way to a stop and then holds is a deal breaker. In my world, the brake pedal is emergency use only.

Question for @R1TVT, does the Rivian include regen on the brake pedal or is it separate like Tesla?

 

[Logan]

In the early days, Tesla offered a choice between standard (maximum) and low regen. They also allowed you to select how it would behave at a stop, Creep (like an automatic ICE) or Hold. Nowadays however, there are no choices. All cars are set to max regen and Hold. The accelerator only controls the motors (acceleration or regen) and the brakes only control the friction brakes. I find elegance in the simplicity (I have never driven a car that seamlessly blends regen on the brake pedal but I haven't driven that many new EV/hybrids). I know a few of you have had bad test drive experiences but IMO you will get used to it very quickly. I can literally go days without touching the brake pedal. It will regen all the way to a "limo stop," hold itself there until I want to go, then I just press the accelerator again. I can go as fast or as slow as I want by just moving my foot slightly.

Anyway, I know that different people want different things and I am open to making a car that works best for everyone (and allows people settings that range from "drives like an ICE" to "OPD" so they can evolve at their own pace). But for me, not having a true OPD mode that regens all the way to a stop and then holds is a deal breaker. In my world, the brake pedal is emergency use only.

Question for @R1TVT, does the Rivian include regen on the brake pedal or is it separate like Tesla?

Wait, Teslas no longer do regen braking on the brake pedal? And ONLY offer one pedal driving now? Is that what you're saying?

FWIW, both of the Hyundais I've owned (Tucson PHEV and Ioniq 9), have wonderful blended braking (hard to tell when you're using regen, or friction brakes). Although with the Ioniq 9, I'm not quite sure I've ever actually used the brakes themselves.

The only reason I could see for not having regen tied to the brake pedal, is for making sure you can clean off your brakes? My Ioniq has a setting for that actually. Press and hold the AUTO-HOLD button for 3 seconds, and it disables regen until you do that again. That way if you want to "exercise" your brakes, you can do it easier than panic stopping.

 

[Chaz26]

You can select roll or creep as your stopping modes as well as hold on my Tesla. I only do hold so not sure if the regen is as strong on the other ones but just allows the car to roll or if it’s more like two pedal driving. I’ll have to try it out briefly next time I go out.

 

[strider]

Wait, Teslas no longer do regen braking on the brake pedal? And ONLY offer one pedal driving now? Is that what you're saying?

Teslas have NEVER had regen on the brake pedal. The systems have always been completely separate. Obviously, when you lift your foot off the accelerator to move it to the brake, the car will start to regen. There is a delay/ramp programmed into the regen (so it doesn't pitch you forward too abruptly) such that if you move from the accelerator to the brake pedal quickly, as you start pressing the brake pedal the regen will still be ramping so it could feel as if the brake pedal is triggering the regen but I can assure you this is not the case (I have been driving them since 2010).

In recent years (I want to say around 2020 but don't quote me - my wife's 2018 has the old way and my 2022 has the new way) Tesla removed all settings for regen and creep/hold. It is now always max regen and hold at stop (no more idle creep).

FWIW, both of the Hyundais I've owned (Tucson PHEV and Ioniq 9), have wonderful blended braking (hard to tell when you're using regen, or friction brakes). Although with the Ioniq 9, I'm not quite sure I've ever actually used the brakes themselves.

The only reason I could see for not having regen tied to the brake pedal, is for making sure you can clean off your brakes? My Ioniq has a setting for that actually. Press and hold the AUTO-HOLD button for 3 seconds, and it disables regen until you do that again. That way if you want to "exercise" your brakes, you can do it easier than panic stopping.

I'm glad to hear that the blended brakes work well in the Hyundais. I like having the systems separate as I always know what I'm getting. Since I have max regen on the accelerator, there is no need to have any on the brake pedal because if I'm pressing the brake pedal, I am already at max regen (because my foot is off the accelerator).

Tesla handles brake cleaning automatically:

 

[R1TVT]

Question for @R1TVT, does the Rivian include regen on the brake pedal or is it separate like Tesla?

My understanding is that it is separate. Rivian allows for different drive "feel" with regen by adjusting the strength of the regen directly (low, medium, or high), OR by choosing a drive mode (like SNOW MODE) that automatically reduces the amount of regen (amongst doing other things).

 

[N Wilson]

In the early days, Tesla offered a choice between standard (maximum) and low regen. They also allowed you to select how it would behave at a stop, Creep (like an automatic ICE) or Hold. Nowadays however, there are no choices. All cars are set to max regen and Hold. The accelerator only controls the motors (acceleration or regen) and the brakes only control the friction brakes. I find elegance in the simplicity (I have never driven a car that seamlessly blends regen on the brake pedal but I haven't driven that many new EV/hybrids). I know a few of you have had bad test drive experiences but IMO you will get used to it very quickly. I can literally go days without touching the brake pedal. It will regen all the way to a "limo stop," hold itself there until I want to go, then I just press the accelerator again. I can go as fast or as slow as I want by just moving my foot slightly.

Anyway, I know that different people want different things and I am open to making a car that works best for everyone (and allows people settings that range from "drives like an ICE" to "OPD" so they can evolve at their own pace). But for me, not having a true OPD mode that regens all the way to a stop and then holds is a deal breaker. In my world, the brake pedal is emergency use only.

Question for @R1TVT, does the Rivian include regen on the brake pedal or is it separate like Tesla?

The F150 Lightning has regen on the brake pedal, and a button to turn auto hold on or off.

I mostly use 1PD and I have never turned auto hold off in the ~3 weeks or so of owning the truck. Only turn off 1PD occasionally to use the brakes to keep rust from forming on the rotors.

 

[R1TVT]

The F150 Lightning has regen on the brake pedal, and a button to turn auto hold on or off.

I mostly use 1PD and I have never turned auto hold off in the ~3 weeks or so of owning the truck. Only turn off 1PD occasionally to use the brakes to keep rust from forming on the rotors.

Yep. I stopped using the HIGH regen setting b/c I literally was never using the brakes in my truck unless there was an OhSHIT! moment. My service tech told me to go to a parking lot and do some heavy braking to ensure that my rotors remained in good condition. Now I use the medium setting for the majority of my good weather driving, and I mix some aggressive braking in from time to time.

With 1-pedal driving (for those that have never used it) it's really not "all 1-pedal". If a deer or ball or something rolls in front of your truck, you will still slam the brakes. If you aren't paying attention and suddenly find yourself needing to stop for a stop sign, you still hit the brake. Its all quite natural.

Driving more efficiently and slowing more smoothly also seems to be an off-shoot of 1-pedal driving (for me anyway). Also, saves some rubber to be smooth with your braking and regen in a big HEAVY truck. Can't imagine driving a truck without regen now - just seems so draconian to use friction brakes and waste energy!

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

Can't imagine driving a truck without regen now - just seems so draconian to use friction brakes and waste energy!

Very much this.


Everyone should note that there are no modern EVs without regen. The biggest question is how is that regen applied and how aggressively.

I personally find—after having spent most of my life driving manual transmission vehicles—that using 1PD is more consistent with how I learned to drive than driving an ICE with an automatic. I much prefer the “engine braking” behavior of 1PD over the coasting behavior of 2PD / automatic transmissions.

 

[strider]

Yep. I stopped using the HIGH regen setting b/c I literally was never using the brakes in my truck unless there was an OhSHIT! moment. My service tech told me to go to a parking lot and do some heavy braking to ensure that my rotors remained in good condition. Now I use the medium setting for the majority of my good weather driving, and I mix some aggressive braking in from time to time.

The original Tesla Roadster had issues with this. The chassis for that first model was built by Lotus. In an effort to save costs, Tesla leveraged a lot of the already DOT-approved systems from the Lotus Elise, including the brake system. Those brakes did not work very well at all until they were heated up. Of course with regen, the brakes were rarely used until you needed them and they didn't work. To mitigate this, many of us replaced the pads with autocross pads that are designed to work well when cold and that solved the problem for me.

Tesla learned from that with the Model S and adjusted the brake pad compound and, later, introduced automatic brake wiping to keep the pads clean and ready.

Oh, and I have a correction to my post above. I just learned that on the Model 3/Y, Tesla left the choice of reduced or standard regen. That's what I get for making an assumption about one model.