What is More Important? - EV Charge Time or EV Range

[Jrgunn5150]

Unfortunately, the answer is "yes."

Competing against incumbency means either (1) replicating all of the incumbent's features (while adding something novel) or (2) offering more limited features at a radically lower price point. EVs cannot as yet do #2, so they have to do #1. Until an EV can charge as fast as gas - everywhere you can with gas - and go as far and as fast as gas, it will be inferior to some substantial segment of the customer base. When an EV can tow a 20,000 pound trailer a few hundred miles on a single charge (then recharge in five minutes) and corner as well as a 70's Porsche 911, then the naysayers will have nothing left to complain about.

Really, what will happen is cars will become so expensive many people gain some form of auto-based transportation from autonomous solutions, all of which will be electric. The fleet model will solve for cost and anxiety before the tech does.

Disagree.

Again, I'm honest with myself, and I let data drive my decisions, not politics, feelings, or the need to belong to a tribe.

I drive, daily, 100 miles.

I haul, monthly, 1500-2500 lbs 300 miles or less.

I tow bi-monthly, 6500 lbs 150 miles or less.

I tow twice yearly, 7500 lbs 1500 miles or more.

I don't need to replicate any of my ICE trucks features, other than their payload or tow caps. Especially if my Terra is less to buy.

 

[R1TVT]

If you look at the numbers we only have less than half the amount of chargers to gas stations. I Count that as zero to none. As on what my rule is that for every 2 gas stations, 1 charging location should be installed or vise verse-a.

This is common. Your logic is flawed, b/c when you own an EV you charge at home or work most of the time. Do you have a gas pump in your garage? You don't need to have as many DCFC stations for that reason and b/c infrastructure growth is on a curve with EV adoption. Will there being growing pains with the tension that exists between EV sales growth and infrastructure growth? Sure, that will happen and exists in certain parts of the country. But there are also those of us that choose to invest in things like solar on our roofs along with EV trucks so we can be as free and independent from fossil fuels as possible, save money, have better performing and lower maintenance vehicles and do small part for clean water, air and the environment. Not everyone will have all of those choices, or choose EV's period. But that is OK - there is no mandate. As someone that surfs, fishes, skis, MTB's and generally lives for the outdoors, its a no-brainer. I would rather deal with the occasional time when I need to wait or find a DCFC and take all of the other benefits that come with an EV truck - this is why I am rooting for Scout. This is also why I am all-in on a pure BEV Terra.

 

[THil08]

This is common. Your logic is flawed, b/c when you own an EV you charge at home or work. Do you have a gas pump in your garage? You don't need to have as many DCFC stations for that reason and b/c infrastructure growth is on a curve with EV adoption. Will there being growing pains with the tension that exists between EV sales growth and infrastructure growth? Sure, that will happen and exists in certain parts of the country. But there are also those of us that choose to invest in things like solar on our roofs along with EV trucks so we can be as free and independent from fossil fuels as possible, save money, have better performing and lower maintenance vehicles and do small part for clean water, air and the environment. Not everyone will have all of those choices, or choose EV's period. But that is OK - there is no mandate. As someone that surfs, fishes, skis, MTB's and generally lives for the outdoors, its a no-brainer. I would rather deal with the occasional time when I need to wait or find a DCFC and take all of the other benefits that come with an EV truck - this is why I am rooting for Scout. This is also why I am all-in on a pure BEV Terra.

Actually yes I do have a gas station in my garage. Since my cars run on ignite orange.

I’m done with this convo, because your another snobby EV owner that thinks they know everything since they visited a state once or twice.

 

[R1TVT]

Actually yes I do have a gas station in my garage. Since my cars run on ignite orange.

I’m done with this convo, because your another snobby EV owner that thinks they know everything since they visited a state once or twice.

I pass through NJ multiple times each summer and spend a great deal of time on the I-95 corridor between Maine and DC. Name calling is unnecessary, and stating simple truths and facts is not being a snobby EV owner - its setting the record straight for everyone else reading along. I've been here for a very long time, and I do my best to be factual in all of my posts. I was simply correcting you (since I have charged at BOTH Tesla and Applegreen chargers on the NJT).

 

[THil08]

I pass through NJ multiple times each summer and spend a great deal of time on the I-95 corridor between Maine and DC. Name calling is unnecessary, and stating simple truths and facts is not being a snobby EV owner - its setting the record straight for everyone else reading along. I've been here for a very long time, and I do my best to be factual in all of my posts. I was simply correcting you (since I have charged at BOTH Tesla and Applegreen chargers on the NJT).

What ever you say goes lmfao

 

[Jamie@ScoutMotors]

Let's keep this productive and as factual as we can please.

 

[Cranky Canuck]

Unfortunately, the answer is "yes."

Competing against incumbency means either (1) replicating all of the incumbent's features (while adding something novel) or (2) offering more limited features at a radically lower price point. EVs cannot as yet do #2, so they have to do #1. Until an EV can charge as fast as gas - everywhere you can with gas - and go as far and as fast as gas, it will be inferior to some substantial segment of the customer base. When an EV can tow a 20,000 pound trailer a few hundred miles on a single charge (then recharge in five minutes) and corner as well as a 70's Porsche 911, then the naysayers will have nothing left to complain about.

Really, what will happen is cars will become so expensive many people gain some form of auto-based transportation from autonomous solutions, all of which will be electric. The fleet model will solve for cost and anxiety before the tech does.

I disagree with your conclusions here. First of all EVs have always had a cost advantage. They may only compete on sticker price with luxury vehicles for the most part but on operating costs there's no contest, EVs are dramatically less expensive to own and operate.

As for needing to charge "as fast as gas" that's also not necessary once you understand how much of a paradigm shift living with an EV is compared to gas. They may do the same basic jobs and even look very similar but the way you run them and live with them couldn't be more different.

With a gas car you have to stand there at the pump until it's full. That might not take more than a few minutes but all the tasks associated with a refuelling stop have to be done in sequence which means typical stops take longer than you'd expect (as others have already pointed out). With an EV things can be done in parallel. Sure it takes a couple seconds to plug the car in but then you can walk away and go to the washroom, or buy food or any of the other things people typically do when they stop for gas. The difference is that you can do them at the same time, not one after the other.

 

[dreamweaver]

I disagree with your conclusions here. First of all EVs have always had a cost advantage. They may only compete on sticker price with luxury vehicles for the most part but on operating costs there's no contest, EVs are dramatically less expensive to own and operate.

As for needing to charge "as fast as gas" that's also not necessary once you understand how much of a paradigm shift living with an EV is compared to gas. They made do the same basic jobs and even look very similar but the way you run them and live with them couldn't be more different.

With a gas car you have to stand there at the pump until it's full. That might not take more than a few minutes but all the tasks associated with a refuelling stop have to be done in sequence which means typical stops take longer than you'd expect (as others have already pointed out). With an EV things can be done in parallel. Sure it takes a couple seconds to plug the car in but then you can walk away and go to the washroom, or buy food or any of the other things people typically do when they stop for gas. The difference is that you can do them at the same time, not one after the other.

When I was growing up and we traveled the lower 48 by station wagon dad would pump the gas, mom would take the younger siblings to the restroom and us older kids would go in and buy the snacks. A real pitstop strategy. Time management at it’s best.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

Every state has more plugs than gas stations, by many thousands. Every plug is a potential charging station, even if it's just L1. For most drivers and most of the time, L1 and L2 chargers are more than adequate for most of the miles driven. Long road trips are edge cases. And I say this as someone who has driven more than 75% of my >60,000 EV miles on road trips.

The following maps are why I say I have zero concern about driving anywhere within the US. Especially when I add in Level 2 and 50A RV charging ports.

Here's a point and heat map using the publicly-available data on DCFC stations from 2022. Each dot is a charging station with at least one DCFC plug. I don't have the data separated by compatibility, just charge speed, so there's some places where there might be a larger gap. Any place within the maroon color is within 50 miles of a DCFC. The darker the maroon, the more charger plugs (which you can also see as the dots).

This shows the coverage within 100 miles of a DCFC. This is straight-line range, not necessarily along a road.

And this is 200 miles distance from a DCFC. All of the contiguous US is within (straight-line) 200 miles of a DCFC and all but the northern parts of the midwest states are within 200 miles of more than one DCFC. With roads adding weirdness, this would likely mean driving distance is somewhere between 100 and 250 to 300 miles for some of the less dense places and if the DCFC isn't compatible.

 

[Albal]

Can't wait to see the comparison video (that will undoubtedly be produced post launch) of taking a pure 350mi range Terra and a Harvester Terra on a 1000 mile+ road trip. That will be interesting, and results will vary based on where that test (or tests) take place, availability of DCFC infrastructure (or gas and DCFC infrastructure in the case of the Harvester), weather, geography, etc. I'm 100% committed to the Pure EV so whoever wins an edge case road trip won't matter, but will be interesing!

This makes me wonder how the Harvester experience will actually be on very long trips. If you go as long as you can, you end up very low on both gas and E, so then have to stop twice to fill up. Or, if you're just taking a rest break, you'll need to figure out if it's better to get gas or E while doing so. On the other hand, if you simplify things by always going for the gas, your basically driving a bunch of extra dead weight around using a smaller than usual engine...

Hmmm...from memory the Harvester battery was supposed to be good for about 150 miles. Given a total 500 mile range, the gas tank is good for 350, which happens to also be the approximate range of the EV version. So someone taking a long trip and "simplifying" their lives by just using gas will end up with the same range as the EV.

I think SM will want to do some serious customer education before taking Harvester orders in order to minimize buyer's remorse.

 

[CarneroAsada]

For myself personally. Charge time is definitely something I would pay more attention too. My Charger is lucky to get 200 miles from a tank of gas with my current Northern VA driving so the Scout can get even 300 miles of the advertised 350 I'd consider that an amazing upgrade. However I also realize that I don't tow anything so I don't have to worry about that and fortunately this area has a decent amount of chargers around including most of the data centers I work at. Also I rarely go on drives more than an hour and a half from home and most Sheetz stations in this region have a large amount of Tesla chargers so even if this doesn't use the same charging standard I'm sure someone will end up making an aftermarket adapter that will allow us to use them if needed.

 

[cyure]

For myself personally. Charge time is definitely something I would pay more attention too. My Charger is lucky to get 200 miles from a tank of gas with my current Northern VA driving so the Scout can get even 300 miles of the advertised 350 I'd consider that an amazing upgrade. However I also realize that I don't tow anything so I don't have to worry about that and fortunately this area has a decent amount of chargers around including most of the data centers I work at. Also I rarely go on drives more than an hour and a half from home and most Sheetz stations in this region have a large amount of Tesla chargers so even if this doesn't use the same charging standard I'm sure someone will end up making an aftermarket adapter that will allow us to use them if needed.

Welcome to the forum! This is a great place for answers to all Scout questions. There’s lots of info here and the search bar is very helpful. My understanding is there will be no need for an adaptor as the Scout will be charging via NACS. Welcome again!

 

[J Alynn]

I would skip the Trail Master, Trailblazer, Pathfinder, Explorer & Navigator. Those are all ready overused names. It needs to be something truly Scout.

Agreed. And possible trademark issues with most

 

[dreamweaver]

Every state has more plugs than gas stations, by many thousands. Every plug is a potential charging station, even if it's just L1. For most drivers and most of the time, L1 and L2 chargers are more than adequate for most of the miles driven. Long road trips are edge cases. And I say this as someone who has driven more than 75% of my >60,000 EV miles on road trips.

The following maps are why I say I have zero concern about driving anywhere within the US. Especially when I add in Level 2 and 50A RV charging ports.

Here's a point and heat map using the publicly-available data on DCFC stations from 2022. Each dot is a charging station with at least one DCFC plug. I don't have the data separated by compatibility, just charge speed, so there's some places where there might be a larger gap. Any place within the maroon color is within 50 miles of a DCFC. The darker the maroon, the more charger plugs (which you can also see as the dots).

View attachment 5634

This shows the coverage within 100 miles of a DCFC. This is straight-line range, not necessarily along a road.

View attachment 5632

And this is 200 miles distance from a DCFC. All of the contiguous US is within (straight-line) 200 miles of a DCFC and all but the northern parts of the midwest states are within 200 miles of more than one DCFC. With roads adding weirdness, this would likely mean driving distance is somewhere between 100 and 250 to 300 miles for some of the less dense places and if the DCFC isn't compatible.

View attachment 5637

Thank you. Good information to maybe ease a little range anxiety. Lets hope that 50 mile map fills in even more in the next 2.5 years.

 

[J Alynn]

For myself personally. Charge time is definitely something I would pay more attention too. My Charger is lucky to get 200 miles from a tank of gas with my current Northern VA driving so the Scout can get even 300 miles of the advertised 350 I'd consider that an amazing upgrade. However I also realize that I don't tow anything so I don't have to worry about that and fortunately this area has a decent amount of chargers around including most of the data centers I work at. Also I rarely go on drives more than an hour and a half from home and most Sheetz stations in this region have a large amount of Tesla chargers so even if this doesn't use the same charging standard I'm sure someone will end up making an aftermarket adapter that will allow us to use them if needed.

Welcome to the forum

 

[J Alynn]

For myself personally. Charge time is definitely something I would pay more attention too. My Charger is lucky to get 200 miles from a tank of gas with my current Northern VA driving so the Scout can get even 300 miles of the advertised 350 I'd consider that an amazing upgrade. However I also realize that I don't tow anything so I don't have to worry about that and fortunately this area has a decent amount of chargers around including most of the data centers I work at. Also I rarely go on drives more than an hour and a half from home and most Sheetz stations in this region have a large amount of Tesla chargers so even if this doesn't use the same charging standard I'm sure someone will end up making an aftermarket adapter that will allow us to use them if needed.

Tesla chargers at this time will be available to Scouts

 

[cyure]

Agreed. And possible trademark issues with most

Actually, this is a perfect example of why bringing back Scout was so ingenious. No chance of it being perceived as anything but what it is.

 

[R1TVT]

This makes me wonder how the Harvester experience will actually be on very long trips. If you go as long as you can, you end up very low on both gas and E, so then have to stop twice to fill up. Or, if you're just taking a rest break, you'll need to figure out if it's better to get gas or E while doing so. On the other hand, if you simplify things by always going for the gas, your basically driving a bunch of extra dead weight around using a smaller than usual engine...

I think about this a bit differently (in terms of the Harvester,) since the deadweight is the battery that is getting charged by the Harvester, and the smaller engine is charging the battery, which is then powering the motors (a smaller engine is not driving you around). Since the power to actually propel the truck forward is coming from the battery and the motors (not the engine) there is no performance loss.

However, there is the issue of energy generation and degradation on longer road trips, which is what I was getting at with the comparison. Eventually, yes, you will run out of gas and electrons (without any charge or fuel stops). This will result in charging and/or filling the tank and waiting. What I think we don't (yet) know precisely is how much time will be required for the generator to produce enough energy to charge the battery to a meaningful SOC to continue a trip, or how long it will take to Charge the battery AND fill the tank, then carry on.

In the case of those choosing the BEV, the "penalty" taken (when compared to the Harvester) is not being able to reach 500 miles on a full charge. You will need to charge BEFORE you reach 500 miles, but you could theoretically then pass the Harvester truck on a road trip at the 500 mile mark, then charge again. I'm envisioning some leap-frogging for at least the first legs of a longer "side by side" type journey between the two...

In the case of the Harvester, the penalty will be charging AND filling a tank after 500 miles (or filling a tank and waiting for the generator to charge the battery). Of course having a sub-system, and having more maintenance could be considered an ownership "penalty" of sorts.

I see the Harvester as a very good option for those that either do a longer ~400 - 500 mile stretch of driving regularly, or those that want to go into the desert or backcountry for extended periods and be unfettered from any charging infrastructure. Maybe those that want to bring jerry cans and have time to charge with the Harvester while camping or overlanding, etc. Just my 02 cents of course, and still many details & specs needed on the production vehicles before we see any quantitative comparisons. Cool that Scout is covering multiple bases and addressing different use cases for owners!

 

[CarneroAsada]

Tesla chargers at this time will be available to Scouts

Awesome, even better. Thank you both for the warm welcome. Been a member for a while, but don't really visit and post often.

 

[Albal]

I think about this a bit differently (in terms of the Harvester,) since the deadweight is the battery that is getting charged by the Harvester, and the smaller engine is charging the battery, which is then powering the motors (a smaller engine is not driving you around). Since the power to actually propel the truck forward is coming from the battery and the motors (not the engine) there is no performance loss.

However, there is the issue of energy generation and degradation on longer road trips, which is what I was getting at with the comparison. Eventually, yes, you will run out of gas and electrons (without any charge or fuel stops). This will result in charging and/or filling the tank and waiting. What I think we don't (yet) know precisely is how much time will be required for the generator to produce enough energy to charge the battery to a meaningful SOC to continue a trip, or how long it will take to Charge the battery AND fill the tank, then carry on.

In the case of those choosing the BEV, the "penalty" taken (when compared to the Harvester) is not being able to reach 500 miles on a full charge. You will need to charge BEFORE you reach 500 miles, but you could theoretically then pass the Harvester truck on a road trip at the 500 mile mark, then charge again. I'm envisioning some leap-frogging for at least the first legs of a longer "side by side" type journey between the two...

In the case of the Harvester, the penalty will be charging AND filling a tank after 500 miles (or filling a tank and waiting for the generator to charge the battery). Of course having a sub-system, and having more maintenance could be considered an ownership "penalty" of sorts.

I see the Harvester as a very good option for those that either do a longer ~400 - 500 mile stretch of driving regularly, or those that want to go into the desert or backcountry for extended periods and be unfettered from any charging infrastructure. Maybe those that want to bring jerry cans and have time to charge with the Harvester while camping or overlanding, etc. Just my 02 cents of course, and still many details & specs needed on the production vehicles before we see any quantitative comparisons. Cool that Scout is covering multiple bases and addressing different use cases for owners!

It'd be interesting to see how the two would do coast-to-coast. The EV just needing to charge while the Harvester needing to either gas-then-generate-for-awhile (and then only getting ~350 of range) or gas-then-charge (for the full 500 mi range). It seems that either refueling patten might take as long or longer than just charging the EV version, because either way you're first refueling then you're recharging. Certainly the Harvester would get a quick lead, but after that I wouldn't be entirely surprised if the EV starts slowly closing the gap. It'd be interesting to run a simulation..

And do I recall someplace that the Harvester max towing capacity will probably be less than the EV? Perhaps it will be limited by the maximum sustained output of the generator.