Want a Scout. Don't want the Drama!

[tanktheram]

I think the Scout is going to be a flop. It has a group of forums to decide features and the future, it has a direct to consumer model, and it is entering into an EV market that is in decline - it spells disaster.



Make the Scout available at all VW/Audi dealers - maybe even International dealer. All these dealers are all ready geared up for High Voltage Energy vehicles.



Provide an all-gasoline version of the Scout to compete with Bronco, Wrangler/Gladiator, Tacoma, etc. VW/Audi already has excellent gasoline powertrains that would drop in place.



Decide on 3 trim levels, good better best. Give it three powertrain options; EV, Hybrid and Gas. Make it available it at VW/Audi/International Dealers. Enough with the Forum back and forth stuff.



The best selling truck in North America is the F150. The best selling EV truck? The F150. Hybrid Truck - well F150 is also up there. Why? Its available to anyone at any Ford Dealer and servicing is a breeze.



I am rooted in the International Brand, and Scout is historically a no-nonsense vehicle that got the job done. I want one, but am not sure I want the nonsense associated with the brand so far.

 

[J Alynn]

The home charging argument is a nice win for any conversation at face value. My Egolf is appx $28/mo to charge from home.. weee flowers and rainbows!!! Like the iX and Bolt, it's a vehicle designed for efficiency. Ask a Hummer owner their charge costs.

I see so many of you with cars and vehicles aimed at efficiency enamoured with the fact the Scout will be car or SUV efficient, comparing it to even an Ioniq9... You're going to be sadly mistaken.

I can't say it enough times, anything with a big aggressive tire will indeed be horribly inefficient. Rivian states going from the highway oriented, efficiency rated, aerodynamic 21's, to All Terrains results in a 20% range loss. 30% in less than ideal (cold, wet, snow) conditions.

If the Scout is really launching with 35"+ all Terrains - be prepared! Not only will that Wrangler cost less to buy, it may not be far off in efficiency, without the complexities of BEV or EREV.

If you're planning for efficiencies, target somewhere between Rivian Adventure Pack and Hummer EV. This will give you a good idea.

But, what do I know. I'm just an International Motors employee for over just over 20 years. I analyze things like this daily.

Like you all hoping for something with this vehicle, I'm hoping it's not a massive failure. Wishing for ICE power and a dealership experience may help to avoid that.

Take care all,

I’m not sure where you get the idea everyone is comparing the Scout to other EV’s beyond just basics since other than the Hummer (which is very heavy and supposedly purpose built if you have pocket money to burn) there are no other comparable EV’s to what the scout will be-technically not even the Rivian. Being you’ve only been on a short while i can confirm there have been many conversations on here about the Scout being a brick on wheels so I think people accept it for what it is. 33’s vs 35’s is a minimal conversation but to clarify, 33’s will be standard. And many of us understand 35’s and even 37’s will cut into efficiency. But if these vehicles are similar or hopefully better in driving experience than a Jeep Wrangler and fuel efficiency is also considerably better and a removable roof isn’t make or break the new scouts will be all around better than most other SUV’s-EV or ICE for that matter. But the bigger side of optimism from most of us is that a company is building a legit off-road SUV with the added benefits of smart use BEV / EREV and keeping as much as they can transparent. If I understand your post correctly you are wanting ICE and dealership experience. ICE is out and depending on what type of dealership experience you are hoping for you will either likely have a great, low pressure experience at their experience centers OR if you actually want the current state os stealerships, you will likely be disappointed in that as well. I’m really curious on that front what you are really hoping to gain from being a forum member as I get the impression you aren’t fully satisfied with the current direction of SM’s.

 

[LastDayScout]

Any idea what the gas equivalent and/or your mileage was. Still trying to determine how much “fuel” savings I will see with an EV. Thanks

3.1 miles per kWh (mi/kWh) is equivalent to approximately
104.5 MPGe (Miles Per Gallon equivalent). This is calculated using the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) standard conversion factor of

33.7
kWh per gallon of gasoline (

3.1×33.7=104.47
).

 

[tanktheram]

Forum by definition is open discussion regardless of opinion.

The difference is; I'm open to the fact that it's could be fantastic - instead of insistent that it WILL be.

Questioning why I'm here is like me questioning why you're so devoted to something without a confirmed release date - or even finalized costs, range, performance figures or efficiencies.

Any more and I'll be spouting useless argue points.

Wishing you all well on your Scout ressos! I'll wait until it's out and tested before jumping in

 

[J Alynn]

Not apples to apples, but a further comparison on the Rivian compared to the charger, using the Rivian‘s data over 9000 miles it used around 6000 kW so if you assume that 100% of those were home charged (at least at my local rate) you get close to $550 - $600 for those 6000 kWs, but to get 9000 miles worth of gas in the charger is going to be closer to $950 - $1,000 and that is a V8 that was averaging around 25 MPG with an 18 gallon tank compared to a 135 kWh battery with a Rivian that averaged 1.4 to 1.5 kW per mile

So still looking at an approximate 30-35% deduction in fuel savings

 

[cyure]

Forum by definition is open discussion regardless of opinion.

The difference is; I'm open to the fact that it's could be fantastic - instead of insistent that it WILL be.

Questioning why I'm here is like me questioning why you're so devoted to something without a confirmed release date - or even finalized costs, range, performance figures or efficiencies.

Any more and I'll be spouting useless argue points.

Wishing you all well on your Scout ressos! I'll wait until it's out and tested before jumping in

Everyone has to do what’s in their comfort zone but I do have a question. I always have questions.

Since this is a forum and they are asking for our input, besides ICE and a dealership have you posted anything else you want. Colors, interiors, accessories, delivery experience, etc, etc.

I for one am telling them every chance I get. I’m posting PBY over and over and over again. If there’s the slimmest chance that I can influence them in anyway I’m gonna take it.

So I hope to see you around posting your color choice or accessories or whatever is important to you.

 

[Jkew]

Everyone has to do what’s in their comfort zone but I do have a question. I always have questions.

Since this is a forum and they are asking for our input, besides ICE and a dealership have you posted anything else you want. Colors, interiors, accessories, delivery experience, etc, etc.

I for one am telling them every chance I get. I’m posting PBY over and over and over again. If there’s the slimmest chance that I can influence them in anyway I’m gonna take it.

So I hope to see you around posting your color choice or accessories or whatever is important to you.

Yeah, and I’m a late blooming luddite and data privacy nut who likes the relative mechanical simplicity of EVs. Not everyone is like me, and thank goodness for that.

 

[strider]

That's not actually true. EV technology does not improve "by leaps and bounds", that's a myth. It does improve over time, just as ICE technology does, but it's not at such a rate that a two year old EV is obsolete and not worth it - or even a ten year old EV for that matter! In fact, ignoring cosmetic differences, an original Tesla Model S from 2012 compared to a current Model S are essentially the same. You'd be hard pressed as an average consumer to tell the difference between the two. Functionally they are the same and even look and feel very similar. Sure the newer one has some better software and a new front end, maybe some tweaks to the displays, but so does a new Rav 4 compared to an older one. Name me one model, gas or electric, that has not seen minor improvements over the model years. Functionally they're the same.

Uhhhhh. Having owned a 2012 Model S P85 previously and now a 2018 Model S 100D and 2022 Model X Plaid your statement is objectively false. The 2012 Model S had a 265 mile range. The current model is 410. 2012 Model S85 0-60 5.4, current model 3.1. Further, we paid $100k for our 2012 P85 and now you can buy a standard model s (which has way more range and is faster than the P85) for $95k (and we have had a fair bit of inflation between then and now).

All that to say, I don't think the cycle is as short as 2 years, but EV technology does advance much more rapidly than ICEs which are a much more mature technology. It is also more acute at the higher end. The performance versions of various models are eclipsed quite often. The original R1T quad motor had 835hp, 3 years later it had 1,025. In the Tesla Model S, the 2012 P85 had 416hp, the 2014 P85D had 691hp, 2015 P90D had 762hp. Then it stagnated until the Plaid model came in 2021 with 1,020 horsepower.

Getting back to depreciation, Tesla dropped the Model X Plaid price by like $20k shortly after we bought ours. It is what it is. Buy whatever car you like as long as you can afford it.

As for the OP, nothing I have seen leads me to believe Scout will flop. I believe your thinking is completely backwards. If they built an ICE it would have an insane number of competitors. There would be no differentiation from Broncos, Jeeps, Land Rovers, etc. There are no body on frame EV SUVs available today. Further, there are no series hybrids on the horizon as it seems that Ram is backing away from their EREV. I am going BEV but the EREV gives a lot of people the ability to daily drive electric but also tow and/or boondock without worrying about range. I think Scout is at the right place at the right time.

 

[strider]

Forum by definition is open discussion regardless of opinion.

The difference is; I'm open to the fact that it's could be fantastic - instead of insistent that it WILL be.

Questioning why I'm here is like me questioning why you're so devoted to something without a confirmed release date - or even finalized costs, range, performance figures or efficiencies.

Any more and I'll be spouting useless argue points.

Wishing you all well on your Scout ressos! I'll wait until it's out and tested before jumping in

Dude. Please stop. Go read your post that started this thread. Literally your first sentence was, "I think the Scout is going to be a flop." That is literally the OPPOSITE of being "open to the fact that it's could be fantastic." You come in like a belligerent ass, dooming a product and company that you know literally nothing about, but you sure know how to fix (put a V8 in it huh, huh, huh). How about you close your mouth (fingers), listen (read), and then provide actually useful feedback and opinions.

 

[Chuckles]

Uhhhhh. Having owned a 2012 Model S P85 previously and now a 2018 Model S 100D and 2022 Model X Plaid your statement is objectively false. The 2012 Model S had a 265 miles range. The current model is 410. 2012 Model S85 0-60 5.4, current model 3.1. Further, we paid $100k for our 2012 P85 and now you can buy a standard model s (which has way more range and is faster than the P85) for $95k (and we have had a fair bit of inflation between then and now).

All that to say, I don't think the cycle is as short as 2 years, but EV technology does advance much more rapidly than ICEs which are a much more mature technology. It is also more acute at the higher end. The performance versions of various models are eclipsed quite often. The original R1T quad motor had 835hp, 3 years later it had 1,025. In the Tesla Model S, the 2012 P85 had 416hp, the 2014 P85D had 691hp, 2015 P90D had 762hp. Then it stagnated until the Plaid model came in 2021 with 1,020 horsepower.

Getting back to depreciation, Tesla dropped the Model X Plaid price by like $20k shortly after we bought ours. It is what it is. Buy whatever car you like as long as you can afford it.

As for the OP, nothing I have seen leads me to believe Scout will flop. I believe your thinking is completely backwards. If they built an ICE it would have an insane number of competitors. There would be no differentiation from Broncos, Jeeps, Land Rovers, etc. There are no body on frame EV SUVs available today. Further, there are no series hybrids on the horizon as it seems that Ram is backing away from their EREV. I am going BEV but the EREV gives a lot of people the ability to daily drive electric but also tow and/or boondock without worrying about range. I think Scout is at the right place at the right time.

A couple of things: The Mercedes G580 EV is body-on-frame with a solid rear axle. Ram hasn't cancelled the (formerly Ramcharger) REV, and the same EREV powertrain will be available in the Jeep Grand Wagoneer.

 

[strider]

A couple of things: The Mercedes G580 EV is body-on-frame with a solid rear axle. Ram hasn't cancelled the (formerly Ramcharger) REV, and the same EREV powertrain will be available in the Jeep Grand Wagoneer.

Thanks for the info - I forgot about the Electric G-Wagen. 239 miles of range and 4.1 0-60 for $160k? Scout beats it on literally every measure (except perhaps number of appearances on C-list celebrity Instagram feeds).

I won't hold my breath with Stellantis - although my 12 year old daughter desperately wants a Wrangler EV. Hopefully they will make it happen in the next 4 years.

 

[cyure]

Thanks for the info - I forgot about the Electric G-Wagen. 239 miles of range and 4.1 0-60 for $160k? Scout beats it on literally every measure (except perhaps number of appearances on C-list celebrity Instagram feeds).

I won't hold my breath with Stellantis - although my 12 year old daughter desperately wants a Wrangler EV. Hopefully they will make it happen in the next 4 years.

That’s so cute!

 

[RodorW]

Thanks for the info - I forgot about the Electric G-Wagen. 239 miles of range and 4.1 0-60 for $160k? Scout beats it on literally every measure (except perhaps number of appearances on C-list celebrity Instagram feeds).

I won't hold my breath with Stellantis - although my 12 year old daughter desperately wants a Wrangler EV. Hopefully they will make it happen in the next 4 years.

Wasn’t there issues with the 4xEs catching fire to the point of just being cancelled? At least the gladiator variant

 

[cyure]

Wasn’t there issues with the 4xEs catching fire to the point of just being cancelled? At least the gladiator variant

I think the fact that they only had 26 miles of EV range helped in that cancellation decision. Just my opinion.

 

[Cranky Canuck]

Uhhhhh. Having owned a 2012 Model S P85 previously and now a 2018 Model S 100D and 2022 Model X Plaid your statement is objectively false. The 2012 Model S had a 265 mile range. The current model is 410. 2012 Model S85 0-60 5.4, current model 3.1. Further, we paid $100k for our 2012 P85 and now you can buy a standard model s (which has way more range and is faster than the P85) for $95k (and we have had a fair bit of inflation between then and now).

All that to say, I don't think the cycle is as short as 2 years, but EV technology does advance much more rapidly than ICEs which are a much more mature technology. It is also more acute at the higher end. The performance versions of various models are eclipsed quite often. The original R1T quad motor had 835hp, 3 years later it had 1,025. In the Tesla Model S, the 2012 P85 had 416hp, the 2014 P85D had 691hp, 2015 P90D had 762hp. Then it stagnated until the Plaid model came in 2021 with 1,020 horsepower.

Getting back to depreciation, Tesla dropped the Model X Plaid price by like $20k shortly after we bought ours. It is what it is. Buy whatever car you like as long as you can afford it.

As for the OP, nothing I have seen leads me to believe Scout will flop. I believe your thinking is completely backwards. If they built an ICE it would have an insane number of competitors. There would be no differentiation from Broncos, Jeeps, Land Rovers, etc. There are no body on frame EV SUVs available today. Further, there are no series hybrids on the horizon as it seems that Ram is backing away from their EREV. I am going BEV but the EREV gives a lot of people the ability to daily drive electric but also tow and/or boondock without worrying about range. I think Scout is at the right place at the right time.

My statement isn't "objectively false", it's just nuanced. Your own experience proves my point. Your P85 has a smaller battery (by about 20%) than your 100D. They're also almost a decade apart in age which is about 2% per year improvement in energy density (development of the Model S started well before 2012 when you bought it.) So yes, bigger battery equals more range. I'm not disputing that. But what are the overall efficiency numbers of both vehicles. I'm betting they weren't markedly different. And yes, prices came down over time. That's the primary change in battery technology. It's not that battery developments are making batteries dramatically better year to year, it's that its reducing their costs. I acknowledged that there are improvements, my point is that they weren't such big improvements as to make the older EVs obsolete like a lot of people fear. The improvements are iterative and mostly focused on reducing costs.

 

[strider]

My statement isn't "objectively false", it's just nuanced. Your own experience proves my point. Your P85 has a smaller battery (by about 20%) than your 100D. They're also almost a decade apart in age which is about 2% per year improvement in energy density (development of the Model S started well before 2012 when you bought it.) So yes, bigger battery equals more range. I'm not disputing that. But what are the overall efficiency numbers of both vehicles. I'm betting they weren't markedly different. And yes, prices came down over time. That's the primary change in battery technology. It's not that battery developments are making batteries dramatically better year to year, it's that its reducing their costs. I acknowledged that there are improvements, my point is that they weren't such big improvements as to make the older EVs obsolete like a lot of people fear. The improvements are iterative and mostly focused on reducing costs.

In 10 years the battery size only increased by 10kWh (the current models have 95kWh batteries) but range increased 145 miles. That ~4.5%/year in range. Mpge went from 89 to 124 (3.4%/year). Power went from 416 to 670 (nearly 5%/year). I wouldn't classify that as "essentially the same." Nothing in the ICE world is changing that fast.

It is a fact that EV tech is improving much more rapidly than ICE tech which leads people to view older EV models as being worth less.

That being said, all of the standard durable good purchase rules apply, be it a house, car, or washing machine. If the thing does what you need it to do today and you can afford it, then buy it. If the next model is way better, that doesn't change the fact that the one you bought does your mission and you can afford it. I realize that's not how human nature works but here we are. I also think that a lot of the easy gains have been made in battery chemistry and motor technology so improvements will likely slow down. Also, I think the industry is going to focus more on driving costs down vs improving range and power (hence Tesla actually shrinking the S/X battery pack from 100kWh to 95 kWh in the latest version).

 

[socalscout]

I for one do not want a gas option at all.

I’d prefer a 500 mile range EV SUV that I never have to take to a smog testing facility.

I also never want to deal with oil changes, engine maintenance schedules, or gasoline.

EVs are the future, just as the horseless carriage were more than 100 years ago.

You either accept this, or you don’t. But please don’t presume the internal combustion engine is the future.

I’m not a liberal, leftest, or think EVs will save the planet.

What I am is someone who invested in the future. 12Kw of solar, two EVs for daily driving, and a passion for technology and giving this state the middle finger as it pertains to $5+/gal fuel costs.

FGN
F CARB

 

[Logan]

The home charging argument is a nice win for any conversation at face value. My Egolf is appx $28/mo to charge from home.. weee flowers and rainbows!!! Like the iX and Bolt, it's a vehicle designed for efficiency. Ask a Hummer owner their charge costs.

I see so many of you with cars and vehicles aimed at efficiency enamoured with the fact the Scout will be car or SUV efficient, comparing it to even an Ioniq9... You're going to be sadly mistaken.

I can't say it enough times, anything with a big aggressive tire will indeed be horribly inefficient. Rivian states going from the highway oriented, efficiency rated, aerodynamic 21's, to All Terrains results in a 20% range loss. 30% in less than ideal (cold, wet, snow) conditions.

If the Scout is really launching with 35"+ all Terrains - be prepared! Not only will that Wrangler cost less to buy, it may not be far off in efficiency, without the complexities of BEV or EREV.

If you're planning for efficiencies, target somewhere between Rivian Adventure Pack and Hummer EV. This will give you a good idea.

But, what do I know. I'm just an International Motors employee for over just over 20 years. I analyze things like this daily.

Like you all hoping for something with this vehicle, I'm hoping it's not a massive failure. Wishing for ICE power and a dealership experience may help to avoid that.

Take care all,

Oh, I'm definitely worried about the efficiency, don't get me wrong. This is not going to be near as cheap to drive as a Chevy Bolt or something like that. The physics just don't work.

I think it is not very likely that we will see 350 miles of EV range/150 miles of EV range for the harvester models, when you have the offroad package and 35-37in tires on there. Even with 33in road focused all terrains, I think it will be a stretch to get 2.4miles/kwh like the Rivians, as the Scouts seem boxier, wider, longer, etc. I've been thinking closer to 2miles/kwh is likely.

Hopeful, but skeptical. Curious how it turns out.

Also, I agree about charging costs. Home charging is much cheaper than gas for an equivalent vehicle for me. But public charging is actually more than gas. So if I was public charging a super inefficient hummer EV, then sure, it would be even more than gas in most places. So figuring out how many miles you'll actually charge at home vs in public, is definitely something you should do.

Luckily, something like 90-99% of our drives are within round trip distance to our home charger, and so far all ~4000 miles have been charged at home.

 

[RodorW]

Oh, I'm definitely worried about the efficiency, don't get me wrong. This is not going to be near as cheap to drive as a Chevy Bolt or something like that. The physics just don't work.

I think it is not very likely that we will see 350 miles of EV range/150 miles of EV range for the harvester models, when you have the offroad package and 35-37in tires on there. Even with 33in road focused all terrains, I think it will be a stretch to get 2.4miles/kwh like the Rivians, as the Scouts seem boxier, wider, longer, etc. I've been thinking closer to 2miles/kwh is likely.

Hopeful, but skeptical. Curious how it turns out.

Also, I agree about charging costs. Home charging is much cheaper than gas for an equivalent vehicle for me. But public charging is actually more than gas. So if I was public charging a super inefficient hummer EV, then sure, it would be even more than gas in most places. So figuring out how many miles you'll actually charge at home vs in public, is definitely something you should do.

Luckily, something like 90-99% of our drives are within round trip distance to our home charger, and so far all ~4000 miles have been charged at home.

Public charging isn’t always more expensive, public L2 has a chance to be free or just slightly more than home charging, our Kohl’s charges $.12 Kw, but the mall is free (if you can find one working) for DCFC here it’s $.46 for Tesla SC, or the new DCFCs at the electric company is $.30. But luckily here our town is trying to accelerate EV adoption, they still have a fleet of cars that employees can take home and let friends and family experience EVs, though it’s mostly fords

 

[Logan]

Public charging isn’t always more expensive, public L2 has a chance to be free or just slightly more than home charging, our Kohl’s charges $.12 Kw, but the mall is free (if you can find one working) for DCFC here it’s $.46 for Tesla SC, or the new DCFCs at the electric company is $.30. But luckily here our town is trying to accelerate EV adoption, they still have a fleet of cars that employees can take home and let friends and family experience EVs, though it’s mostly fords

Oh, true. I didn't even think about public L2 charging, as I've never used it. But you're right, there are some around that are free (I think one of the local grocery stores has one thats free for 2hrs). And I'm sure many others are pretty cheap.

I should have said L3 DCFC.

AFAIK, the local rates for those are $0.48/kwh. And our gas prices around here are ~$3.90/gal at the moment. So it takes a very efficient EV to match the cost at those rates.

Was curious, so I had copilot do some math for me. Again, this is using $0.48/kwh for fast charging, and $3.90/gal gas.

Vehicle Type	Efficiency (MPG or mi/kWh)	Cost per Mile	Total Cost for 900 Miles	EV mi/kWh Needed to Match This Cost
Gas	30 mpg	$0.13/mi	$117	3.69 mi/kWh
Gas	20 mpg	$0.195/mi	$175.50	2.46 mi/kWh
Gas	15 mpg	$0.26/mi	$234	1.85 mi/kWh
EV	2.0 mi/kWh	$0.24/mi	$216	—
EV	2.4 mi/kWh	$0.20/mi	$180	—
EV	2.9 mi/kWh	$0.1655/mi	$149	—