Should There Be an EV "Tax Penalty"?

[cyure]

Did the same this past year but was like $70. Apparently different Amish because short of not having to thaw it for 4 or 5 days it didn’t taste any different than a butterball frozen carcass. Our Amish must not use free range

Did you brine it? And let me tell you brining a 24 pound turkey is an adventure. Those Amish raise some big birds.

 

[J Alynn]

Did you brine it? And let me tell you brining a 24 pound turkey is an adventure. Those Amish raise some big birds.

 

[Scoutsie]

Obnoxious insults aside, roads need maintenance and that costs money. It is reasonable for some portion of that to be usage based.

Without tone of voice to convey delivery, I wasn’t going for obnoxious or insulting, I was going for incredulous that EVs would be treated differently than internal combustion vehicles. I’ll clarify, then: I don’t think EVs should be charged above and beyond what other cars get charged because they’re EVs. From what I was reading, the justification seems to be missed revenue for gas tax. It doesn’t make sense to me as a consumer that they should be taxed differently for not using gas. I’d think that this would be an incentive to get an EV. In my state, excise taxes also take care of your share of local costs for wear and tear to the road. If you disagree, then let’s disagree. I’ll mind my tone in the future so that shock doesn’t read as obnoxious and insulting.

 

[cyure]

View attachment 5720

It felt like it was that big!

 

[TreeKiller]

Yay! I'm in Arizona where I pay no additional taxes for EV. Yay!

 

[oldgeeksguide]

Without tone of voice to convey delivery, I wasn’t going for obnoxious or insulting, I was going for incredulous that EVs would be treated differently than internal combustion vehicles. I’ll clarify, then: I don’t think EVs should be charged above and beyond what other cars get charged because they’re EVs. From what I was reading, the justification seems to be missed revenue for gas tax. It doesn’t make sense to me as a consumer that they should be taxed differently for not using gas. I’d think that this would be an incentive to get an EV. In my state, excise taxes also take care of your share of local costs for wear and tear to the road. If you disagree, then let’s disagree. I’ll mind my tone in the future so that shock doesn’t read as obnoxious and insulting.

I expect that people have different perceptions of how gas tax is used and to what extent road costs are covered by gas tax. Since it varies a lot in different places that’s understandable. I doubt there’s many places where roads maintenance is totally covered by gas taxes, but many folks may have the sense that gas taxes are what pays for roads, thus road users that don’t pay gas tax are not contributing to road maintenance. Those different perceptions probably lead to some miscommunications on the matter.

But I’m sure that doesn’t happen here

 

[Jrgunn5150]

Property tax was supposed to be for the roads.

Vehicle registration tax was supposed to be for the roads.

Gas tax was supposed to be for the roads.

The roads have been in steadily degrading condition for 50 years or so, basically since they were finished.

The roads aren't falling apart because the government isn't collecting enough money. They're falling apart because the government doesn't spend the money it collects wisely.

 

[Cranky Canuck]

Property tax was supposed to be for the roads.

Vehicle registration tax was supposed to be for the roads.

Gas tax was supposed to be for the roads.

The roads have been in steadily degrading condition for 50 years or so, basically since they were finished.

The roads aren't falling apart because the government isn't collecting enough money. They're falling apart because the government doesn't spend the money it collects wisely.

Exactly.

Maybe it's because I'm Canadian but I don't subscribe to the "user-pay" model for many things. Roads are a public good. That means their upkeep is beneficial to society whether you actually use them or not. Roads are generally free to use as needed and should be repaired accordingly. It might not seem "fair" to some people, especially those who don't own cars for example, but all of our goods and many of our services rely on roads.

The 'gas tax' argument is an attempt to make it seem like EVs aren't paying their fair share to use roads. But that's not how it works. Gas taxes don't directly pay for road maintenance, they never have. it's just a consumption tax and goes into general revenue like all the other taxes. If you want a user-pay model for roads, that already exists (mostly in the US). They're called "toll roads". No need to invent a new tax for EVs. If you want users to pay for the road maintenance then make all the roads toll roads. But there's a reason all roads AREN'T toll roads - and that reason is because roads are a public good. Just like fire departments, parks, and libraries.

We can come up with elaborate ways to spread the cost fairly among road users if we want...or we can just accept the fact that roads are a public good that benefits society in general and that some people will inevitably pay more directly than others but that's just the nature of participating in a society.

 

[MountainDad]

Here in Colorado, 65% of the first 7 cents per gallon of fuel taxes and 60% of all fuel taxes collected above 7 cents per gallon go to state highway maintenance funds.

26% of the first 7 cents and 22% of all fuel taxes above the first 7 cents goes to counties for county road maintenance.

9% of the first 7 cents and 18% of the taxes above that 7 cents goes to cities for city road maintenance.

So yes, absolutely, EV owners are driving far heavier vehicles for free. My 2017 Land Rover Discovery HSE Td6 weighs about 4900 lbs and I pay 20.5 cents per gallon of diesel in state fuel taxes. For a 22 gallon tank, that's $4.51 per tank. My 2024 Polestar 2 LRDM weighs 4650lbs, and it's a fraction of the physical size, and I pay zero fuel taxes, but did pay $25 for an "EV sticker" which identifies my EV as an EV "so you can charge your vehicle at an EV charger and not get a ticket." (A ticket for what? I asked. The helpful DMV lady said, "for parking at an EV station without a sticker.")

A Hummer EV weighs 9,063lbs.

 

[chucchinchilla]

California registration on our ID.4 this year was $734 while my A6 was $241. According to ChatGPT the X3 that our ID.4 replaced would have racked up $400mi in gas tax a year so for stupid math take my A6 registration plus $400 and you get $641. We're still paying a premium on top of that but quick math says it's not that far off actually.

Thanks to a random YT video over the weekend, I was made aware that registration fees here are based on the vehicle's value. My A6 entered the state with me as a [then] couple year old car wheras the ID.4 is new (leased) so the bulk of that higher fee is the value of the car, within there is a $118 EV fee which is more reasonable.

 

[MountainDad]

Thanks to a random YT video over the weekend, I was made aware that registration fees here are based on the vehicle's value. My A6 entered the state with me as a [then] couple year old car wheras the ID.4 is new (leased) so the bulk of that higher fee is the value of the car, within there is a $118 EV fee which is more reasonable.

In Colorado, our registration fees are also based on the car's value with some portion of it based on tiered weight classes (for my Land Rover that's a little less than $16 out of about $500 this year for a 7 year old vehicle), but the vast majority of this is a specific ownership tax in lieu of a property tax. The SOT is distributed to counties proportional to the number of state highway miles in the county, and the spend must be apportioned based on the allocation of property taxes spent, so if a county spends 50% of its collected property taxes on schools, then the same percentage of the specific ownership tax goes to schools.

There are small fees that are for road and bridge maintenance but they're flat fees per vehicle.

 

[Chavannigans]

Texas has implemented an annual tax on EVs like this, but in Texas disabled veterans can get their registration waved each year.

I am curious if us disabled vets are still expected to shell out $200 a year when we renew our registration or if it there is an exemption.

Cant seem to find a straight answer but it is frustrating since an EV owner STILL PAYS SALES TAX ON EV CHARGING STATION RATES AND THEIR HOMES ELECTRIC BILLS!!!! They are essentially taxing you twice for the same thing.

 

[BartMan Terra Total EV]

Exactly.

Maybe it's because I'm Canadian but I don't subscribe to the "user-pay" model for many things. Roads are a public good. That means their upkeep is beneficial to society whether you actually use them or not. Roads are generally free to use as needed and should be repaired accordingly. It might not seem "fair" to some people, especially those who don't own cars for example, but all of our goods and many of our services rely on roads.

The 'gas tax' argument is an attempt to make it seem like EVs aren't paying their fair share to use roads. But that's not how it works. Gas taxes don't directly pay for road maintenance, they never have. it's just a consumption tax and goes into general revenue like all the other taxes. If you want a user-pay model for roads, that already exists (mostly in the US). They're called "toll roads". No need to invent a new tax for EVs. If you want users to pay for the road maintenance then make all the roads toll roads. But there's a reason all roads AREN'T toll roads - and that reason is because roads are a public good. Just like fire departments, parks, and libraries.

We can come up with elaborate ways to spread the cost fairly among road users if we want...or we can just accept the fact that roads are a public good that benefits society in general and that some people will inevitably pay more directly than others but that's just the nature of participating in a society.

Totally agree with you Cranky. Most if not all super chargers charge a tax. EVs are better for climate change which does major damage to roads, bridges and signs. So I say let's call it even.

 

[MountainDad]

Totally agree with you Cranky. Most if not all super chargers charge a tax. EVs are better for climate change which does major damage to roads, bridges and signs. So I say let's call it even.

@Cranky Canuck's situation in America's Future 52nd State is different than it is in most (other... ) US states. I have no idea how Canada pays for its road upkeep (it certainly is not free to him even if it is a public good), but I would imagine it's a significant bill - weather (not climate) plus traffic and snowplows does a lot more damage to roads on an annual basis in cold climates than climate change over generations does. I'm sure Cranky knows what "frost heaves" are. Heavier vehicles cause more damage than lighter ones - that's just physics. Depending on where you live in Utah @BartMan Terra Total EV, your road costs might be similar to ours in Colorado - our city actually passed a sales tax surcharge to make up for the deficit in road maintenance fees that taxes and the paltry license fees don't cover. In most states diesel fuel taxes are higher than gasoline taxes exactly because fully loaded semi trucks consume most of it and they are quite heavy.

The taxes on public charging stations are sales taxes. Some states may allocate a share of sales taxes to road maintenance (a fraction of a cent per dollar for our city sales tax), but they don't fully fund road maintenance.

If and as the percentage of EVs on the road grows, there must be a mechanism to recoup costs for road upkeep as heavier vehicles do and will continue to cause more damage.

 

[Cranky Canuck]

@Cranky Canuck's situation in America's Future 52nd State is different than it is in most (other... ) US states. I have no idea how Canada pays for its road upkeep (it certainly is not free to him even if it is a public good), but I would imagine it's a significant bill - weather (not climate) plus traffic and snowplows does a lot more damage to roads on an annual basis in cold climates than climate change over generations does. I'm sure Cranky knows what "frost heaves" are. Heavier vehicles cause more damage than lighter ones - that's just physics. Depending on where you live in Utah @BartMan Terra Total EV, your road costs might be similar to ours in Colorado - our city actually passed a sales tax surcharge to make up for the deficit in road maintenance fees that taxes and the paltry license fees don't cover. In most states diesel fuel taxes are higher than gasoline taxes exactly because fully loaded semi trucks consume most of it and they are quite heavy.

The taxes on public charging stations are sales taxes. Some states may allocate a share of sales taxes to road maintenance (a fraction of a cent per dollar for our city sales tax), but they don't fully fund road maintenance.

If and as the percentage of EVs on the road grows, there must be a mechanism to recoup costs for road upkeep as heavier vehicles do and will continue to cause more damage.

Sorry to hear you guys are so backwards down there

We pay for our roads here in Canada from our general tax revenue at the provincial and municipal levels, just like how we pay for our universal healthcare system. No user fees or anything, no billing department needed! Weirdly - and I know this goes counter to the propaganda you're subjected to down there in our future 11th province - our median marginal income tax rate (the one most people pay) is actually lower than the US so we actually generally pay lower taxes and yet we still manage to cover free healthcare and roads! I know, crazy what you can get in a functioning social-democracy!

Anyway yes I do know what frost heaves are, but we build our roads with suitable bases so they don't generally experience heaves. Some of them even have styrofoam foundations in areas where it might be a particularly bad issue.

 

[Derek]

California registration on our ID.4 this year was $734 while my A6 was $241. According to ChatGPT the X3 that our ID.4 replaced would have racked up $400mi in gas tax a year so for stupid math take my A6 registration plus $400 and you get $641. We're still paying a premium on top of that but quick math says it's not that far off actually.

WA state is similar. There is a weight penalty for all rigs (hit's my 3/4 ton Travelall hard!) as well as an EV or Hybrid upcharge of a few hundred dollars. It's probably within shooting range of the gas taxes they're missing. I think cars should mostly pay for roads, so I don't mind paying it if it's roughly correct.