Scout Deal Breakers

[MaddMatt]

OK, this is turning into a pretty useful thread. Added to my "no" list thanks to other posts:
- lack of a 3D camera. We had one in our Rogue, and in our Infinity - didn't realize how much we relied on it until we got the Hyundai in the middle trim, without it. I miss it every time I drive, and its the only thing I regret about that car. Should have got the "Limited".
- forcing me to subscribe to things I already bought. CFO's love the "subscription" economy, but as a consumer I hate it.

Sadly though, modern cars, especially electric, require software, and software has to be maintained, which requires people, servers, etc... which all cost money. Interesting challenge for a car manufacturer - how do you stay current without forcing subscriptions? Honestly I don't know the answer but it's not easy. I would probably accept a monthly or annual "software maintenance fee", but thats only because I sell software for a living - I deal with it every day. I won't accept a "your free trial of heated seats has expired, enter your credit card for continued service" nonsense. Will be interesting to see how this shakes out, not just for Scout but every manufacturer.

Maybe the maintenance fee is baked into leases, and people who purchase get the choice of adding a set amount of time into their initial contract? 5 years for $5k, 10 years for $7500, or $100/month? As long as it's transparent....

I don't like leasing cars, but the BEV technology curve is moving so fast, I may lease my first Scout just in case the "magic battery' is invented a year after they hit the market...

 

[bb00799]

So much for trying to make the infotainment system less distracting, but then imagine getting an ad popping up while your driving, and you want to switch the music, just to have to decline the ad first.

If that happened to me I would veer into highway barrier so fast

 

[THil08]

If that happened to me I would veer into highway barrier so fast

So true

 

[Chavannigans]

Subscription fees for things that are built in would be an instant turn off, like heated seats in the BMW fiasco. I don’t mind a subscription service for satellite internet, but I want to be able to itemize what I pay for every month and be able to see the value prop.

Ads on the entertainment center would be a deal breaker.

Sharing or selling data to insurance companies, or other entities that I have not explicitly approved of would be a deal breaker.

Basically things that focus on monetization post sale. When I buy a car I want to buy a just a car, not a license to use a car or a car that lets companies target ads based on my commute patterns.

Maybe to some people it sounds a little tin foil hat, but I find the direction a lot of car companies going really exhausting. I want to buy a product, not be a product.

I would even pay an extra 10k to have separate terms and licenses on my purchase to I can control my own data.

We really need to demand more rights over our data.

It would be a huge selling point for Scout if they allowed users to opt out without nerfing any features.

 

[cyure]

We really need to demand more rights over our data.

It would be a huge selling point for Scout if they allowed users to opt out without nerfing any features.

I seem to remember Scott saying during the reveal that SM would never sell their customers data. Something to that effect.

 

[bobz]

Can last over 250K+ miles like my 1991 Land Cruiser ;-). Overbuilt and redundancy built to last a very long time.

 

[Chavannigans]

Can last over 250K+ miles like my 1991 Land Cruiser ;-). Overbuilt and redundancy built to last a very long time.

At least you wont have any Pesky Heater Hoses, knuckles to rebuild, or 3FE headgaskets to fail

 

[Latrant]

For me most of these are any car but I was looking at Scout to replace my Wife's current car, so want what she has now and then some:

• No heads up display (she has that now and its a must for both of us)
• Too much functionality in screen (have a Maverick pickup 2025, and too much has moved to screen, hating the UI more every day)
• Tow Rating (GX 550 tows 9000 lbs we like to be around there in an SUV)
• Range 350 for full EV is ok today but not in 2 years (We want to drive from St George Utah to Vegas alot, but sometimes CA so stopping every 2 hours is annoying)
• Range Extender sound cool but 150 EV and hit to towing have thrown water on it for me

Those are main ones for me. Every cars has a few issues, hoping this list can get shorter by time car is in production?

Same!

No Head Up Display in two years is a problem.
Need functions via knobs and switches while underway. I have an R2 on order but may cancel.
Need a sunshade for the Pano.
Rear Wiper blade
Tow Rating of 7,500 at least. 9,000 lbs would be perfect.
Range at least a real 250 miles EV before harvester.
Recording Dashcams everywhere, always as in Rivian or Tesla. 360 camera. Parking sensor.

 

[Scout4x4]

For me, theres lot of things I want (3 locking diffs, 35's, heated steering wheel (seriously, game changer) etc..) and lots of things I don't want (HUD, massive vertical screens that look like they were glued on after the fact....) and things I might want (the fabric roof looks cool but I worry about snowload) but in the end it really comes down to cost - I expect, and am planning, to end up in the $70-$80k range. Much more than that, and I'll have to shop used Rivians.

Sorry for the bad news but it will not have 3 locking diffs. There is no center diff due to the electric Axel set up, so the most you'll get is 2.

 

[Scout4x4]

Deal breaker for me is on the Terra Harvester, how will they handle the performance once the electric range is depleted? If it goes into some sort of limp mode like the i3 then I'm out. It needs to be able to still maintain a tow ability of 7,000lbs once it uses up its electric range.

 

[R1TVT]

It needs to be able to still maintain a tow ability of 7,000lbs once it uses up its electric range.

Considering that the motors are driven by electricity, when there is no electricity, there is no towing (or going for that matter)... You MUST have electricity in the form of some usable / minimally viable SOC to propel the vehicle forward (let alone tow).

 

[Scout4x4]

Considering that the motors are driven by electricity, when there is no electricity, there is no towing (or going for that matter)... You MUST have electricity in the form of some usable / minimally viable SOC to propel the vehicle forward (let alone tow).

Not with the Harvester package. With the Harvester an onboard gas engine kicks in to charge the batteries once they are depleted. But my concern is will the electrical power output of the gas engine be greater than the towing demands?

I'm shocked at the level of misunderstanding that people on this dedicated forum have on the design of these vehicles. It makes me very worried about how Scout will be able to effectively market this to the general public.

 

[04Ram2500Hemi]

For me it’s very simple. The Harvester has to be a gas and go. If I can’t top off the tank and get back on the interstate and travel at 80mph, then I can’t trust the vehicle.

 

[R1TVT]

Not with the Harvester package. With the Harvester an onboard gas engine kicks in to charge the batteries once they are depleted. But my concern is will the electrical power output of the gas engine be greater than the towing demands?

I'm shocked at the level of misunderstanding that people on this dedicated forum have on the design of these vehicles. It makes me very worried about how Scout will be able to effectively market this to the general public.

Please explain (using science) how there is a misunderstanding. I can simplify this (again) as much as possible, because Scout has stated that the Harvester EREV will be a generator used to charge the battery, and that the Scout will NOT be a HYBRID.

1. The motors are driven by electricity
2. Electricity can come from 2 sources: a) The Harvester b) A EVSE, DCFC or other compatible charger

So why is this important and why can't the truck just keep driving forever? Because consumption of power will exceed production of power from the EREV under many normal driving conditions, and of course when towing. When power consumption exceeds production, and depletes a stored power source (aka a large battery pack on a truck or SUV), you must re-fuel / re-charge.

When you have fully depleted the battery, the battery needs to re-charge to a minimally viable level (using 1 of the above 2 sources) BEFORE it contains enough energy to propel the vehicle forward. This is quite simple, since the EREV/Harvester is not connected directly to a drive shaft or axle. People interested in the Harvester have not considered that there is also time requirement to charge if / when the battery is fully depleted.
Using more science, charging a battery is not an instantaneous process - it takes some time for the energy that is produced to be converted and stored. Battery chemistry, temperature, and modularity all factor into charging. And you cannot simultaneously charge and deplete energy from a cell (at least using current technologies). The EREV (and BMS) will theoretically need to send energy to an "open" module for charging. Once a module is charged, the BMS can tell the vehicle that that module can be used for consumption. How much time will be required for this process will be determined based on how fast you are charging (using the Harvester or a charger), how big the battery is (we are awaiting spec's), and where Scout sets the bottom threshold for SOC before driving away (also TBD).

In reality most people won't drive their truck until the battery is fully depleted or drops much below 10% SOC... They will charge along their route and refill gas on longer trips or when towing. For some people, this may be viewed as an inconvenience, but Scout has not developed a perpetual motion machine. The amount of energy required to move the truck (based on what we know now of similarly shaped and sized SUV's and Trucks) will be approximately 470-480 Wh/mi (WITHOUT TOWING). We can make assumptions on the energy produced from the Harvester looking at small (non-turbo) engines or generators, but we also must take into account energy losses, conversion of energy via the inverter, the aerodynamics of the vehicle, the weight of the vehicle, the speed of the vehicle, ambient temperature, trailering, etc.

 

[Chavannigans]

Please explain (using science) how there is a misunderstanding. I can simplify this (again) as much as possible, because Scout has stated that the Harvester EREV will be a generator used to charge the battery, and that the Scout will NOT be a HYBRID.

1. The motors are driven by electricity
2. Electricity can come from 2 sources: a) The Harvester b) A EVSE, DCFC or other compatible charger

So why is this important and why can't the truck just keep driving forever? Because consumption of power will exceed production of power from the EREV under many normal driving conditions, and of course when towing. When power consumption exceeds production, and depletes a stored power source (aka a large battery pack on a truck or SUV), you must re-fuel / re-charge.

When you have fully depleted the battery, the battery needs to re-charge to a minimally viable level (using 1 of the above 2 sources) BEFORE it contains enough energy to propel the vehicle forward. This is quite simple, since the EREV/Harvester is not connected directly to a drive shaft or axle. People interested in the Harvester have not considered that there is also time requirement to charge if / when the battery is fully depleted.
Using more science, charging a battery is not an instantaneous process - it takes some time for the energy that is produced to be converted and stored. Battery chemistry, temperature, and modularity all factor into charging. And you cannot simultaneously charge and deplete energy from a cell (at least using current technologies). The EREV (and BMS) will theoretically need to send energy to an "open" module for charging. Once a module is charged, the BMS can tell the vehicle that that module can be used for consumption. How much time will be required for this process will be determined based on how fast you are charging (using the Harvester or a charger), how big the battery is (we are awaiting spec's), and where Scout sets the bottom threshold for SOC before driving away (also TBD).

In reality most people won't drive their truck until the battery is fully depleted or drops much below 10% SOC... They will charge along their route and refill gas on longer trips or when towing. For some people, this may be viewed as an inconvenience, but Scout has not developed a perpetual motion machine. The amount of energy required to move the truck (based on what we know now of similarly shaped and sized SUV's and Trucks) will be approximately 470-480 Wh/mi (WITHOUT TOWING). We can make assumptions on the energy produced from the Harvester looking at small (non-turbo) engines or generators, but we also must take into account energy losses, conversion of energy via the inverter, the aerodynamics of the vehicle, the weight of the vehicle, the speed of the vehicle, ambient temperature, trailering, etc.

Thats a heavy read.


We still dont know the "Steady State" of the charging system, and we also dont know if they will use an architecture like some other EREVs that bypass battery charging and directly power the motors with the generator.

 

[R1TVT]

Thats a heavy read.


We still dont know the "Steady State" of the charging system, and we also dont know if they will use an architecture like some other EREVs that bypass battery charging and directly power the motors with the generator.

There are numerous other details & spec's that are still TBD that will impact real-world driving, but Scout has already stated that the EREV will not bypass the battery (and that the Harvester will charge the battery), and Scott Keough has stated that in interviews

From https://insideevs.com/news/751664/scout-evs-harvester-erevs-lfp-nmc-batteries/

"If charging isn’t easily accessible, they can fill up the 15-gallon gas tank and forget range anxiety. Even then, the Scout EREVs will function mainly as EVs. The gas engine will have no mechanical connection to the wheels, which will be solely powered by the e-motors. The engine’s sole mission is to charge the battery and help with towing and hauling when energy requirements run high.

Source: Scout Motors
Keogh said that if you’re not a hardcore gearhead and don’t want to think about what’s powering the vehicles, the experience will be hassle-free. Owners can just “stab it and steer,” and the on-board system can seamlessly switch between EV or hybrid modes.

 

[MaddMatt]

Sorry for the bad news but it will not have 3 locking diffs. There is no center diff due to the electric Axel set up, so the most you'll get is 2.

Yeah you got me - I'll take the computer generated impression of 3 locking diffs...

 

[Chavannigans]

There are numerous other details & spec's that are still TBD that will impact real-world driving, but Scout has already stated that the EREV will not bypass the battery (and that the Harvester will charge the battery), and Scott Keough has stated that in interviews

From https://insideevs.com/news/751664/scout-evs-harvester-erevs-lfp-nmc-batteries/

"If charging isn’t easily accessible, they can fill up the 15-gallon gas tank and forget range anxiety. Even then, the Scout EREVs will function mainly as EVs. The gas engine will have no mechanical connection to the wheels, which will be solely powered by the e-motors. The engine’s sole mission is to charge the battery and help with towing and hauling when energy requirements run high.

Source: Scout Motors
Keogh said that if you’re not a hardcore gearhead and don’t want to think about what’s powering the vehicles, the experience will be hassle-free. Owners can just “stab it and steer,” and the on-board system can seamlessly switch between EV or hybrid modes.

That link says there is no mechanical connection between the engine and the motors, which isnt what I am talking about.


Some EREVs can 1. Charge the battery 2. Power the motors. 3. Power the motors and charge the battery.

None of that involves a mechanical transfer of power.

"The engine’s sole mission is to charge the battery and help with towing and hauling when energy requirements run high."

Thats two types of energy transfer. It sounds like it can charge the battery as well as deliver power to the motors when needed. Or at least that is how I am reading it.

 

[R1TVT]

Thats a heavy read.

if that is too heavy, then listen to Scott Keough in this interview

 

[Chavannigans]

if that is too heavy, then listen to Scott Keough in this interview

I already watched that one.

TLDR: A lot of details remain to be finalized.