Industry-leading DCFC charge rate and battery warranty

[SpaceEVDriver]

Scout has the opportunity to learn from its predecessors in the EV space and to leave them behind with a vastly improved battery warranty and charge rate

The past two decades of EV battery performance has disproven the anti-EV nonsense and FUD about battery longevity and reliability. With the right thermal management, the batteries will easily outlast the rest of the vehicle.

Scout could beat the mandated minimum 8 year/100k mile battery warranty and warranty its batteries for 12 years / 150k miles with minimal risk. They could sell an extended warranty to 16 years/200k miles (I don't buy extended warranties, but I know some people do). Or even a lifetime/unlimited mile warranty (non-transferable).

At the same time, Scout could dominate the large battery charge rate. Mainly it would be done by improving the average charge rate. If Scout pushed its average charge rate up to ~200-250 kW (while on capable chargers like EA's 350 kW hyperchargers), they would leave the competition behind. The GMC, Ford, and Rivian charge rates are down in the 140 kW realm.

 

[SrfnFly227]

Scout has the opportunity to learn from its predecessors in the EV space and to leave them behind with a vastly improved battery warranty and charge rate

The past two decades of EV battery performance has disproven the anti-EV nonsense and FUD about battery longevity and reliability. With the right thermal management, the batteries will easily outlast the rest of the vehicle.

Scout could beat the mandated minimum 8 year/100k mile battery warranty and warranty its batteries for 12 years / 150k miles with minimal risk. They could sell an extended warranty to 16 years/200k miles (I don't buy extended warranties, but I know some people do). Or even a lifetime/unlimited mile warranty (non-transferable).

At the same time, Scout could dominate the large battery charge rate. Mainly it would be done by improving the average charge rate. If Scout pushed its average charge rate up to ~200-250 kW (while on capable chargers like EA's 350 kW hyperchargers), they would leave the competition behind. The GMC, Ford, and Rivian charge rates are down in the 140 kW realm.

Good post as always. Not being an EV owner, I'd appreciate if you could expand on the charge rate. Let's say I take my BEV Scout on a road trip and I need to charge from 0 to 100% while on the road. Approximately how long would that charge take (at an estimated battery pack size) at 200 or 250 rather than 140?

 

[Cranky Canuck]

Good post as always. Not being an EV owner, I'd appreciate if you could expand on the charge rate. Let's say I take my BEV Scout on a road trip and I need to charge from 0 to 100% while on the road. Approximately how long would that charge take (at an estimated battery pack size) at 200 or 250 rather than 140?

A few things here, first you almost never charge from 0% to 100% on a road trip. It's much faster to charge from 10% or so up to 80% and move on. The charge rate REALLY slows down at the top end of the battery pack - it take about the same amount of time to go from 10% to 80% as it does to go from 80% to 100% so it's not worth it.

Second, the charge curve is more important than the charging rate. Some EVs have a very high peak charge rate (like Tesla) but only hit it for a brief period. Other cars (like Hyundai and Kia) have both a high peak charging rate and a fairly flat charging curve which by all indications is what Scout seems to be going for as well. To answer your question with an assumed battery pack size of 125ish kWh on a hypercharger at 250kW it should take around 21 mins (assuming a flat curve, realistically you're probably looking at something closer to 25 mins - 10% to 80%). On a more standard 140kW charger it would be closer to 38 mins to go from 10% to 80%.

125kWh *.7 (70% of the battery size since you're charging from 10% to 80%) = 87.5kWh.
87.5kWh/250kW = .35hrs = 21 mins
87.5kWh/140kW = .625hrs = 37.5 mins

In real life though you almost never rock up to a charger with 10%, I usually hit the charger with my battery in the teens or twenties and while i often charge to 80% I don't always need to. Sometimes I only charge to 50% or some other amount, enough to get to my destination where I then usually charge on a cheaper, slower charger overnight. My actual charge stops tend to be around 20 mins and my car is usually done charging and ready to go before I am.

One thing a lot of non-EV owners don't consider is that unlike a gas car where you have to babysit it while refuelling, an EV lets you do other things at the same time. So instead of stopping to gas up AND THEN go get lunch or use the washrooms, with an EV you plug in, walk away and eat or whatever WHILE it's charging. Charging en EV on a fast charger rarely takes longer than the time it takes a burger joint to make you food and for you to eat it.

 

[SrfnFly227]

A few things here, first you almost never charge from 0% to 100% on a road trip. It's much faster to charge from 10% or so up to 80% and move on. The charge rate REALLY slows down at the top end of the battery pack - it take about the same amount of time to go from 10% to 80% as it does to go from 80% to 100% so it's not worth it.

Second, the charge curve is more important than the charging rate. Some EVs have a very high peak charge rate (like Tesla) but only hit it for a brief period. Other cars (like Hyundai and Kia) have both a high peak charging rate and a fairly flat charging curve which by all indications is what Scout seems to be going for as well. To answer your question with an assumed battery pack size of 125ish kWh on a hypercharger at 250kW it should take around 21 mins (assuming a flat curve, realistically you're probably looking at something closer to 25 mins - 10% to 80%). On a more standard 140kW charger it would be closer to 38 mins to go from 10% to 80%.

125kWh *.7 (70% of the battery size since you're charging from 10% to 80%) = 87.5kWh.
87.5kWh/250kW = .35hrs = 21 mins
87.5kWh/140kW = .625hrs = 37.5 mins

In real life though you almost never rock up to a charger with 10%, I usually hit the charger with my battery in the teens or twenties and while i often charge to 80% I don't always need to. Sometimes I only charge to 50% or some other amount, enough to get to my destination where I then usually charge on a cheaper, slower charger overnight. My actual charge stops tend to be around 20 mins and my car is usually done charging and ready to go before I am.

One thing a lot of non-EV owners don't consider is that unlike a gas car where you have to babysit it while refuelling, an EV lets you do other things at the same time. So instead of stopping to gas up AND THEN go get lunch or use the washrooms, with an EV you plug in, walk away and eat or whatever WHILE it's charging. Charging en EV on a fast charger rarely takes longer than the time it takes a burger joint to make you food and for you to eat it.

Appreciate the reply. My 0 to 100 was more hypothetical for the question than an assumption that it would ever happen. I agree that 25 minutes would hardly add any time once you walk inside, go to the bathroom, and maybe order some food. At Wawa or Buc-ee's, the vehicle would probably be ready to go before I could get back outside. 35-40 minutes to charge would be noticeable though.

That said, I'd be towing a Jeep and from the many articles and videos that I've read and watched, towing greatly reduces the range. If the advertised 350 max range drops to 100 when towing, then 10-80% is really only 70 miles. If I'm stopping after an hour of driving, 25 minutes to charge is a huge improvement over 40 minutes. And there's no charging where I'd be going so a full overnight charge isn't a possibility.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

Good post as always. Not being an EV owner, I'd appreciate if you could expand on the charge rate. Let's say I take my BEV Scout on a road trip and I need to charge from 0 to 100% while on the road. Approximately how long would that charge take (at an estimated battery pack size) at 200 or 250 rather than 140?

As @Cranky Canuck notes, you'll want to avoid the top end. And I use average charge rate here because some people think the maximum charge rate matters when that's only important if you're only charging for five minutes.

Ignoring the full curve and just assuming the average rate, you can just divide the two rates:

200/140 = 1.43. So the 140 kW average charge rate will take 43% longer than the 200 kW charge rate.

If the battery is 125 kWh, and you're putting 100 kWh into it (0%-80%), then it'll take 30 minutes at 200 kW and 43 minutes at 140 kW.

If you're putting 60% (20%-80%) into it, it'll take 22-23 minutes at 200 kW and 32 minutes at 140 kW.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

My median charge time while not towing is 20-25 minutes. This is after hundreds of dcfc sessions and >50k miles of road trips. And with a slow dcfc charge curve.

 

[R1TVT]

if your primary use case is towing, I would get a diesel HD p/u. If you occasionally tow, you need to weigh all the time saved NOT going to a gas station (assuming you would have a home charger or don;t need to charge at a DCFC) VERSUS some additional time and towing stops in an EV when do occasionally tow. That said, I would estimate that your range (like in any ICE truck) would be cut by some percentage based on load, aerodynamics of said load, elevation and temperature. Maxing out your payload and tow capacity would cut range by ~50% under avg driving conditions based on other tests and trucks. Will need to wait and see on Scout spec's. All trade-offs based on use cases and how you much towing you will do. Put it this way, if you towed locally all the time (maybe to a trail-head or boat ramp in your region) an EV could be excellent - esp with tow-modes and tech in these new trucks. If you are going the distance all the time, or haul professionally, I see no reason to get an EV truck for that use case. It doesn't make sense to add those additional stops and add charge time, not to mention you could even get away with 1500 diesel if you load was under 13 K or so, and be fine in something like a Silverado:

• 2025 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 Diesel​

• Max. Towing: 13,300 lb
• Fuel Economy: 26 mpg*
• Pros: Excellent choice for towing, diverse trims, broad engine selection
• Cons: Rivals provide more refined handling, unexceptional cabin quality in lower trims

 

[Chaz26]

In real life though you almost never rock up to a charger with 10%, I usually hit the charger with my battery in the teens or twenties and while i often charge to 80% I don't always need to. Sometimes I only charge to 50% or some other amount, enough to get to my destination where I then usually charge on a cheaper, slower charger overnight. My actual charge stops tend to be around 20 mins and my car is usually done charging and ready to go before I am.

I'm probably in the minority but when I'm on road trips I try and get to the charger around 1-3% to maximize my initial range and then I charge to 45-50% and I'm off to the next stop if one is needed. That's partly due to the charging curve in my Tesla though, it gets slow after 50%. If I had a F-150 Lightning then I'd probably just let it sit all the way to 80% with how flat the charging curve is on those.

 

[cyure]

I'm probably in the minority but when I'm on road trips I try and get to the charger around 1-3% to maximize my initial range and then I charge to 45-50% and I'm off to the next stop if one is needed. That's partly due to the charging curve in my Tesla though, it gets slow after 50%. If I had a F-150 Lightning then I'd probably just let it sit all the way to 80% with how flat the charging curve is on those.

So for all of us EV newbies when we get our Scouts all of you who are old hats at this are going to help us right?

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

I'm probably in the minority but when I'm on road trips I try and get to the charger around 1-3% to maximize my initial range and then I charge to 45-50% and I'm off to the next stop if one is needed. That's partly due to the charging curve in my Tesla though, it gets slow after 50%. If I had a F-150 Lightning then I'd probably just let it sit all the way to 80% with how flat the charging curve is on those.

With the Lightning, I don’t even notice that it’s as slow as it is relative to some of the newer vehicles. I honestly think if it was too much faster it would be terribly inconvenient. I have a lot of anxiety about not wanting to make someone else wait for the charger, so I’d get stressed if it only took 10 minutes to reach my state of charge goal. I wouldn’t be done with lunch or dinner by then and it would just be annoying to have to go move the truck.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

So for all of us EV newbies when we get our Scouts all of you who are old hats at this are going to help us right?

We need an app. $1.00/minute for lifeline support from an experienced user via text. $1.50/minute for voice. $2.00/minute for video.

 

[Chaz26]

With the Lightning, I don’t even notice that it’s as slow as it is relative to some of the newer vehicles. I honestly think if it was too much faster it would be terribly inconvenient. I have a lot of anxiety about not wanting to make someone else wait for the charger, so I’d get stressed if it only took 10 minutes to reach my state of charge goal. I wouldn’t be done with lunch or dinner by then and it would just be annoying to have to go move the truck.

And that it one good thing with the Telsa charging curve, I can get a quick charge and be on my way if I'm doing a quick stop to grab a snack, but it also slows down so much after 50% that I can also do a full restroom stop and get something to eat without it getting close to 100% either depending on what I'm doing.

 

[Chaz26]

So for all of us EV newbies when we get our Scouts all of you who are old hats at this are going to help us right?

I think for most new people, it will be getting used to any range anxiety, so probably plugging in early than what I do to start with (10-20% range), and we'll all learn once it is out and tested what the charging curve looks like and how best to plan stops.

 

[J Alynn]

We need an app. $1.00/minute for lifeline support from an experienced user via text. $1.50/minute for voice. $2.00/minute for video.

You may regret making that offer. And it’s out there so now we will all hold you to it

 

[Logan]

I was thinking about this the other day.

Yes, agreed, could easily extend the warranty, or make it better in some way, with relatively minimal impact.

And, I was also thinking about the charging curve/size of battery. Typically larger batteries end up with higher peak charging rates, but the charging curve is really the bigger deal for charging time.

I really hope that the Scout can at least match/exceed the Ioniq 9's charging rates. Ideally a lower overall charge time would be great, but given its a larger battery, I'm less optimistic about that.

And as for the maths, it really is pretty simple.

Size of battery (KWh)/charging rate (KW) gives you the time of the charge, at least in theory. So a 100KWh battery, that charged at 50KW, would in theory take 2 hours to charge from 0-100%.

The problem is what they call a "charging curve". And simply put, a battery cannot be charged at the same rate from 0%, up to 100%, because of physics and how the battery soaks up electricity. Its always faster to charge in the lower stages of charge. This is why no one really charges past 80% on a road trip, as the rate of charging goes way down as you get closer and closer to 100%.

This is also why most Electric Vehicles advertise their 10-80% charge time, as thats usually the most impressive.

Here is the charging curve for my Ioniq 9. Vertical axis is power the battery is accepting, and horizontal is state of charge for the battery. You can see that the charge rate of the battery is ~200KW from like 5% - 55%, then it slowly drops. At 99% its at something like 15kw.

And you can see the averages here.

Hyundai IONIQ 9 AWD Long Range charging curve & performance | EVKX.net

Below is the charging curve for Hyundai IONIQ 9 AWD Long Range, illustrating the charging speed at various battery levels. Additionally, graphs for range and time provide comprehensive details on charging performance.

evkx.net

As a side note, I'm a smidge worried about the range and expected battery size of the BEV model. My Ioniq is quite aerodynamic, and has a 110KWh battery (107kwh useable), and has a EPA range of 320 miles. The BEV Scouts are supposedly using ~120-130kwh batteries last I heard, and have more "brick like" aero. I'm hoping they manage do keep their range, and also give us a good charging curve (like the new Porsche/Audi stuff).

 

[Logan]

I was thinking about this the other day.

Yes, agreed, could easily extend the warranty, or make it better in some way, with relatively minimal impact.

And, I was also thinking about the charging curve/size of battery. Typically larger batteries end up with higher peak charging rates, but the charging curve is really the bigger deal for charging time.

I really hope that the Scout can at least match/exceed the Ioniq 9's charging rates. Ideally a lower overall charge time would be great, but given its a larger battery, I'm less optimistic about that.

And as for the maths, it really is pretty simple.

Size of battery (KWh)/charging rate (KW) gives you the time of the charge, at least in theory. So a 100KWh battery, that charged at 50KW, would in theory take 2 hours to charge from 0-100%.

The problem is what they call a "charging curve". And simply put, a battery cannot be charged at the same rate from 0%, up to 100%, because of physics and how the battery soaks up electricity. Its always faster to charge in the lower stages of charge. This is why no one really charges past 80% on a road trip, as the rate of charging goes way down as you get closer and closer to 100%.

This is also why most Electric Vehicles advertise their 10-80% charge time, as thats usually the most impressive.

Here is the charging curve for my Ioniq 9. Vertical axis is power the battery is accepting, and horizontal is state of charge for the battery. You can see that the charge rate of the battery is ~200KW from like 5% - 55%, then it slowly drops. At 99% its at something like 15kw.

View attachment 10948

And you can see the averages here.

View attachment 10949

Hyundai IONIQ 9 AWD Long Range charging curve & performance | EVKX.net

Below is the charging curve for Hyundai IONIQ 9 AWD Long Range, illustrating the charging speed at various battery levels. Additionally, graphs for range and time provide comprehensive details on charging performance.

evkx.net

As a side note, I'm a smidge worried about the range and expected battery size of the BEV model. My Ioniq is quite aerodynamic, and has a 110KWh battery (107kwh useable), and has a EPA range of 320 miles. The BEV Scouts are supposedly using ~120-130kwh batteries last I heard, and have more "brick like" aero. I'm hoping they manage do keep their range, and also give us a good charging curve (like the new Porsche/Audi stuff).

Oh, and for context, I went and dug up the F150's charging curve.

You can see the shape of the graph here is different than the Ioniq. Thats what we're talking about. It holds its peak charge rate for a very short time (~2-12%???). The Ioniq does it from ~2-55%.

 

[cyure]

Oh, and for context, I went and dug up the F150's charging curve.

You can see the shape of the graph here is different than the Ioniq. Thats what we're talking about. It holds its peak charge rate for a very short time (~2-12%???). The Ioniq does it from ~2-55%.

View attachment 10950

Ah ha. Thanks!

 

[BeerParty]

At the same time, Scout could dominate the large battery charge rate. Mainly it would be done by improving the average charge rate. If Scout pushed its average charge rate up to ~200-250 kW (while on capable chargers like EA's 350 kW hyperchargers), they would leave the competition behind. The GMC, Ford, and Rivian charge rates are down in the 140 kW realm.

As far as the charging rate is concerned - Scott will almost certainly have the higher charge rates.

Scout has already said that both the BEV and the EREV will use 800V battery architecture. The battery voltage architecture is the determining factor right now for getting the best charge rates. The models you mention that are in the "140 Kw realm" use 400V architectures. Vehicles that use 800V architectures have much higher charge rates, even on the less powerful DCFCs. For example, the Porsche Taycan, Audi e-tron GT, Hyundia Ioniq 5/6 and Kia EV 6/9s all use a 800V battery architecture and they all are known to provide fast DC charging. My Ioniq 5 will regularly reach 235 kW while DCFC on EA's 350 kW chargers. It will even reach 175 kW while DCFC on EA's 150 kW chargers.

Scout has plenty of other vendor lessons to learn from. I have no doubt that they will be some of the fastest DC fast charging vehicles on the road when they come out.

 

[Logan]

As far as the charging rate is concerned - Scott will almost certainly have the higher charge rates.

Scout has already said that both the BEV and the EREV will use 800V battery architecture. The battery voltage architecture is the determining factor right now for getting the best charge rates. The models you mention that are in the "140 Kw realm" use 400V architectures. Vehicles that use 800V architectures have much higher charge rates, even on the less powerful DCFCs. For example, the Porsche Taycan, Audi e-tron GT, Hyundia Ioniq 5/6 and Kia EV 6/9s all use a 800V battery architecture and they all are known to provide fast DC charging. My Ioniq 5 will regularly reach 235 kW while DCFC on EA's 350 kW chargers. It will even reach 175 kW while DCFC on EA's 150 kW chargers.

Scout has plenty of other vendor lessons to learn from. I have no doubt that they will be some of the fastest DC fast charging vehicles on the road when they come out.

With the latest Porsche and Audi's charging really quickly, I'm optimistic.

Check out this charging curve from Audis latest. It holds over 300kw from ~3% - 65%. As a result, it charges over 10 minutes faster to 80% than my Ioniq 9 (which is also 800v, and a decent charger). Thats a huge improvement.

More of this please.

 

[Chaz26]

As a side note, I'm a smidge worried about the range and expected battery size of the BEV model. My Ioniq is quite aerodynamic, and has a 110KWh battery (107kwh useable), and has a EPA range of 320 miles. The BEV Scouts are supposedly using ~120-130kwh batteries last I heard, and have more "brick like" aero. I'm hoping they manage do keep their range, and also give us a good charging curve (like the new Porsche/Audi stuff).

I'm slightly concerned by those figures as well, especially at the lower end of 120 kWh. I believe the Ford F-150 Lightning Lariat with a 131 kWh battery has an EPA range of 320 miles. I'm not sure how they will get 350 miles with that battery size, certainly not with the 35" tires. I still think they should be aiming for a 150 kWh battery size to get the 350 miles range.

A 120 kWh battery would need to do 2.92 miles per kWh which seems very efficient for the type of vehicle they are. If they did 150 kWh it would be 2.33 miles per kWh which seems more reasonable to me.