I actually looked to see if any were hiding around the wheel in NYC but nodda.
First Time EV Owner: Live experience report
- Thread starter Logan
- Start date
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Hopefully like other things this doesn't exclude them from production.
Yeah, this is an interesting one.
I know there are a lot of people in each "camp" (one pedal, or "normal pedal" driving). IME so far one pedal driving is more nauseating for your passengers, as any minute changes to your foot position causes a noticeable acceleration/deceleration. Obviously holding it steady is the idea, but bumps/turns/whatever IMO makes it harder to do. Whereas the lighter regen settings that same effect is less noticeable (very similar to a normal automatic transmission), but you can still add more regen via the brakes.
I think as long as they have good blended braking, I might be fine with something akin to a "light" or "off" setting in the settings (where I'd also assume they'd have a "high" or "one pedal" setting). As that is "normally" what I'm using. But on steep downhills (coming down a big hill, or a mountain pass), or a highway offramp or something similar, "shifting" to higher regen is something I actively do. And it works pretty well.
What I'd like to see, is something similar to what Hyundai calls the "Downhill Brake Control". It basically is downhill cruise control, but it adjusts the braking for you (and I think it does normal blended braking/regen adjustment??? I haven't tested it yet). The catch is that it only works up to 37mph or something like that.
I'd love for the Scout Cruise control to have something like that, where on the highway, if you're coming down a mountain pass at 70mph, but the terrain switches back and forth from short uphills, to steep downhills, that it just adjusts the regen required to keep you at that 70mph, without us having to paddle shift/change settings/ride the brakes the whole time.
So I am a die-hard OPD fan. IMO, paddles are gimmicks. I can see how it could help someone transition from an ICE but I am a rip the band aid off kind of person.
I have never driven a vehicle that had seamless blending between regen and friction brakes. In the Tesla and Volvo worlds, the brake pedal only actuates the friction brakes; the accelerator only actuates the motors. It's also simpler for the manufacturer - keep the systems separate.
In that downhill scenario I want to know if and when I am using friction brakes so I don't overheat them.
In the freeway scenario, cruise control will handle the times when you should be coasting. One thing about EVs is that there isn't a huge penalty for holding a set speed up and down hills. In an ICE, if you are going up a hill and slow down enough that the car has to downshift, your mileage will drop a fair amount as the engine must rev a lot higher. EVs don't suffer from that. Plus on the downhill it will automatically regen to keep the speed so you don't have this constant yo-yoing of slowing down up a hill, then speeding up down the hill, lather, rinse, repeat. With an EV, you just drive the vehicle.
For me it's just completely seamless and intuitive. I almost never use my actual brake pedal. Just the one foot on the one pedal - push for more, ease off for less. You don't even think about it - the car just instantly responds to your whims. If you are the kind of person that treats the accelerator like an on/off switch then yes, you are going to make people nauseous. Just don't drive like that - it's the wrong way to drive.
This is why I really hope that they put thought into both viewpoints. I know lots of people love one pedal driving, and I of course want those users to have a good setup/hope that its implemented well there. I just also don't want that to be the only well defined option.
I have a friend I drove to work with once, who did treat the pedal like a lightswitch (F150 Lightning). It was literally every 2-3 seconds, a herky jerky sensation forwards or backwards. And that was nauseating (hence why I've only driven with him once).
I like to think I'm much smoother than that. Like you said, thats the wrong way to drive in general, in any vehicle. But even then, I notice that in the most aggressive regen mode (level 4, which is Hyundais 1 pedal mode), that it takes a lot more effort to stay smooth with. So far, no complaints from passengers either way, but as a driver, I'm finding its easier/less fatiguing to control in the part throttle application scenarios, with less regen baked in.
I agree though. I do wish it was easier to tell when friction brakes were engaging. Even something like a dashboard light, or a visible threshold being reached would be good to know.
On our Ioniq 9, when you use the brake pedal you can see the "power/regen" dial (the thing that exists in the dash where a Tachometer would normally go), and you can see it sweeping the "dial" farther and farther into the "charge" region of the meter. Even adding something like a "red line" that showed where the brakes were engaging would be helpful.
I personally, I'm worried mostly about one thing with one pedal driving. Once you get out of the muscle memory of using the brake pedal, and covering the brake pedal, I can see how in a panic braking situation the instinct may just be to "lift off" the accelerator, and not actually mash the brake pedal. Not sure how it is in other EV's, but while the max regen setting (the one pedal mode) for my Ioniq 9 is fairly strong, its nowhere near panic braking levels of stopping distance.
I know that there are a lot of collision avoidance systems now, which may do some of that for us. But I also know I've seen enough videos where those systems are tested, and failed, that I know I'd want to make sure I am prepared to smash the brakes asap if a deer/cyclist/kid/whatever needs to be avoided.
Perhaps its because I know my personal "instinct" and muscle memory is pretty baked, and just don't want to mess with it (and I'm not saying you/others are not, I'm just speaking for myself here). Especially with not all of the vehicles being EV's (one EV, one PHEV, one 30 yr old gas vehicle).
In college, I'd been driving manual transmission cars for a while, and my parents came to visit, and I drove their minivan (with an automatic transmission) to go do something. I got into a panic braking situation. Someone pulled out into traffic aggressively/unsafely, and my panic response... was to smash the dead pedal with my left foot, and "downshift" with the water bottle in the cupholder in the middle (again, I was used to a manual. I freaking STOMPED on that dead pedal, and my hand apparently grabbed whatever was in the general area where a stick would be). I got a giggle out of that one.
I use and prefer OPD, but when I drive, I’m always ready to swap my foot from the accelerator to the brake. I treat OPD as if I’m driving a non-shifting manual vehicle with no engine lugging. The response is very similar to when one lifts their foot off the accelerator without engaging the clutch—lots of engine braking. When I get into another vehicle without OPD engaged, it’s like switching to an automatic. I’ve driven so many different vehicles that it takes almost no time to adjust to a different feel.
That’s good to hear as the Scout will be EV for us and other is ICE.
I'm definitely open to having both. I just hope the paddles are unobtrusive as I will never use them. I really don't want Ferrari-style paddles back there. Buttons on the rear of the steering wheel spokes would be good (that's where the radio controls are in my Jeep Gran Cherokee - they are easy to reach but out of the way), or maybe allow the driver to repurpose a scroll wheel or buttons on the face of the wheel.
I can tell you that after over 15 years of driving EVs this has never happened to me. It is still instinctive that after your foot has come all the way off of the accelerator, and you still need to slow down, your foot will automatically move to the brake pedal and start applying the brake. As @SpaceEVDriver posted, it's like driving a manual in 2nd gear all the time. In a panic situation your foot will jump off of the accelerator and mash on the brake, same as it always has.
Great writeup, thanks for sharing!
my 2cents:
Regen: I've been trying off and on (get it
?) to adjust to 1pedal driving in my Ioniq5 for almost 10 months now. Just can't do it. I find Hyundai's level 2 regen to be the most natural, and we have enough range that getting a little more isn't proving to be worth the effort.
Charging: When we first got the car (its our first EV of any kind) we were convinced that a Level 2 charger was a must, but to do that we had to update our house to 200amp service, then run the wires all the way around the house (garage is of course at the opposite side from the panel) and then buy and install the charger. So we bit the bullet on the panel upgrade, which was pricey, and found that for our driving Level1 charging is plenty, so we just stopped there. I have the charger set to only charge between 7 am and 7 pm, so we maximize the solar panels - and we're bascially driving for free. This whole process has been way less of an adjustment than we expected, and when we finally get our Scout we may have the Level2 wired and put in at that time.
Units: Takes me back to college, there were so many pizza delivery deals that I developed a "pizza units" comparison chart, basically the area of the pizza, X1.5 for thick crust (the goal was to get full cheaply) divided by cost = pizza units. I wish I had access to Excel in college, I worked this out on graph paper and taped it to the fridge.
Anyway, thanks for sharing - its threads like this that have encouraged my conversion to BEV, and completely eliminated range anxiety for me. Big picture I find the benefits far outweigh the challenges.
my 2cents:
Regen: I've been trying off and on (get it
?) to adjust to 1pedal driving in my Ioniq5 for almost 10 months now. Just can't do it. I find Hyundai's level 2 regen to be the most natural, and we have enough range that getting a little more isn't proving to be worth the effort.Charging: When we first got the car (its our first EV of any kind) we were convinced that a Level 2 charger was a must, but to do that we had to update our house to 200amp service, then run the wires all the way around the house (garage is of course at the opposite side from the panel) and then buy and install the charger. So we bit the bullet on the panel upgrade, which was pricey, and found that for our driving Level1 charging is plenty, so we just stopped there. I have the charger set to only charge between 7 am and 7 pm, so we maximize the solar panels - and we're bascially driving for free. This whole process has been way less of an adjustment than we expected, and when we finally get our Scout we may have the Level2 wired and put in at that time.
Units: Takes me back to college, there were so many pizza delivery deals that I developed a "pizza units" comparison chart, basically the area of the pizza, X1.5 for thick crust (the goal was to get full cheaply) divided by cost = pizza units. I wish I had access to Excel in college, I worked this out on graph paper and taped it to the fridge.
Anyway, thanks for sharing - its threads like this that have encouraged my conversion to BEV, and completely eliminated range anxiety for me. Big picture I find the benefits far outweigh the challenges.
I have never driven an EV using OPD. I am willing to try as long as they get the regen/braking smooth but useful. Everyone tells me it is just like the old golf carts, unfortunately, I am not a golfer; never was. And my wife's fancy golf cart is a two pedal affair. We shall see.Great writeup, thanks for sharing!
my 2cents:
Regen: I've been trying off and on (get it
Charging: When we first got the car (its our first EV of any kind) we were convinced that a Level 2 charger was a must, but to do that we had to update our house to 200amp service, then run the wires all the way around the house (garage is of course at the opposite side from the panel) and then buy and install the charger. So we bit the bullet on the panel upgrade, which was pricey, and found that for our driving Level1 charging is plenty, so we just stopped there. I have the charger set to only charge between 7 am and 7 pm, so we maximize the solar panels - and we're bascially driving for free. This whole process has been way less of an adjustment than we expected, and when we finally get our Scout we may have the Level2 wired and put in at that time.
Units: Takes me back to college, there were so many pizza delivery deals that I developed a "pizza units" comparison chart, basically the area of the pizza, X1.5 for thick crust (the goal was to get full cheaply) divided by cost = pizza units. I wish I had access to Excel in college, I worked this out on graph paper and taped it to the fridge.
Anyway, thanks for sharing - its threads like this that have encouraged my conversion to BEV, and completely eliminated range anxiety for me. Big picture I find the benefits far outweigh the challenges.
Having never driven a golf cart that doesn’t help me either. I just know test driving the R1S I made my husband car sick. So however that was set it was too jerky. So let me see if I am understanding this.
In simple terms the less you have it set to one pedal the more it coasts and drives like an ICE? Is that close at all?
TLDR;
The 1-3 levels of Kia/Hyundai regen are somewhere akin to driving an ICE with an automatic transmission, but without the awkward jerkiness of gears automatically down shifting as the vehicle slows—the best comparison will depend on the ICE engine size and the number of gears in the transmission.
The i-Pedal mode (one pedal drive mode) of a Kia is akin to driving an ICE with a manual transmission and not changing gears.
I’m sure one of the regen modes of a Kia is akin to driving an ICE with a manual transmission and popping it into neutral.
The 1-pd drive on of Ford is akin to driving an ICE with a manual transmission and not changing gars.
The 1-pd drive off of Ford is akin to driving an ICE with a manual transmission and popping the transmission into neutral.
Ford’s Mustang and Lightning do not have adjustable regen levels. It’s only 1-pd on or off. Sort of. The various drive modes remap the accelerator and brake pedal responses, but it’s not directly obvious and it’s not really on-the-fly.
Too long:
There’s infinite adjustability available to the manufacturers, which means there’s a ton of confusing verbiage spilled about one-pedal, regen, blended braking, etc.
On one end you have no regenerative braking, which no modern EV has implemented because that would be dumb and would require engineering to disable. If you had an EV without regenerative braking, the only way to slow the vehicle is to apply the friction brakes. Otherwise—if you don’t apply the friction brakes—the vehicle will coast for a long time while the tire-road friction slows the vehicle. Maybe gravity helps a little if your direction of movement is upslope. Again, no EV manufacturer does this. Think of this as putting an ICE in neutral and coasting without stepping on the brake.
On the other end, you have aggressive regenerative braking where releasing the accelerator pedal even a little slows the vehicle—if you’re not applying power to turn the motors at the rate necessary to keep the vehicle moving at its current speed or to increase its speed, they’re being used to slow the vehicle and recharge the battery. At the very end of this spectrum, you can think of the system doing its best to bring the vehicle to a stop as quickly as possible without engaging the friction brakes. This might be like dropping an ICE with a manual transmission into first gear and popping the clutch while going 60 mph. It’s harsh. It’s not what anyone really wants. (It’s not as damaging to the EV as it would be to the ICE, though.)
In between are where things get interesting. You get light regen, moderate regen, etc. You get blended braking. On the Fords, the first few cm of braking you do are all regenerative rather than friction. Somewhere in there the friction brakes grab. I don’t know where because by the time I’ve reached friction braking levels of slowing, I’m focused on whatever the emergency is rather than the feel of the brake. Most of the time when I apply the brake, there's no friction braking and instead it’s just more aggressive regenerative braking.
The Kia and Hyundai systems have on-the-fly adjustable regenerative braking response. This means that you can change how strongly the motors recover the kinetic energy of the vehicle based on the position of your brake pedal. As you go to more and more aggressive regenerative braking, your car slows more quickly when you press the brake pedal. This gives you more regeneration before the vehicle starts to blend the friction brakes in. They also have a mechanism for engaging the “one pedal drive” mode. And you can use the paddles to bring the vehicle to a complete stop by holding down one of them for a specified amount of time.
The 1-3 levels of Kia/Hyundai regen are somewhere akin to driving an ICE with an automatic transmission, but without the awkward jerkiness of gears automatically down shifting as the vehicle slows—the best comparison will depend on the ICE engine size and the number of gears in the transmission.
The i-Pedal mode (one pedal drive mode) of a Kia is akin to driving an ICE with a manual transmission and not changing gears.
I’m sure one of the regen modes of a Kia is akin to driving an ICE with a manual transmission and popping it into neutral.
The 1-pd drive on of Ford is akin to driving an ICE with a manual transmission and not changing gars.
The 1-pd drive off of Ford is akin to driving an ICE with a manual transmission and popping the transmission into neutral.
Ford’s Mustang and Lightning do not have adjustable regen levels. It’s only 1-pd on or off. Sort of. The various drive modes remap the accelerator and brake pedal responses, but it’s not directly obvious and it’s not really on-the-fly.
Too long:
There’s infinite adjustability available to the manufacturers, which means there’s a ton of confusing verbiage spilled about one-pedal, regen, blended braking, etc.
On one end you have no regenerative braking, which no modern EV has implemented because that would be dumb and would require engineering to disable. If you had an EV without regenerative braking, the only way to slow the vehicle is to apply the friction brakes. Otherwise—if you don’t apply the friction brakes—the vehicle will coast for a long time while the tire-road friction slows the vehicle. Maybe gravity helps a little if your direction of movement is upslope. Again, no EV manufacturer does this. Think of this as putting an ICE in neutral and coasting without stepping on the brake.
On the other end, you have aggressive regenerative braking where releasing the accelerator pedal even a little slows the vehicle—if you’re not applying power to turn the motors at the rate necessary to keep the vehicle moving at its current speed or to increase its speed, they’re being used to slow the vehicle and recharge the battery. At the very end of this spectrum, you can think of the system doing its best to bring the vehicle to a stop as quickly as possible without engaging the friction brakes. This might be like dropping an ICE with a manual transmission into first gear and popping the clutch while going 60 mph. It’s harsh. It’s not what anyone really wants. (It’s not as damaging to the EV as it would be to the ICE, though.)
In between are where things get interesting. You get light regen, moderate regen, etc. You get blended braking. On the Fords, the first few cm of braking you do are all regenerative rather than friction. Somewhere in there the friction brakes grab. I don’t know where because by the time I’ve reached friction braking levels of slowing, I’m focused on whatever the emergency is rather than the feel of the brake. Most of the time when I apply the brake, there's no friction braking and instead it’s just more aggressive regenerative braking.
The Kia and Hyundai systems have on-the-fly adjustable regenerative braking response. This means that you can change how strongly the motors recover the kinetic energy of the vehicle based on the position of your brake pedal. As you go to more and more aggressive regenerative braking, your car slows more quickly when you press the brake pedal. This gives you more regeneration before the vehicle starts to blend the friction brakes in. They also have a mechanism for engaging the “one pedal drive” mode. And you can use the paddles to bring the vehicle to a complete stop by holding down one of them for a specified amount of time.
Wow! Anyone besides me think they should standardize this? As more and more EV's hit the market how many ways to do this do you think we will end up with?
I think the market will figure it out. We don't want a Porsche to shift like a Corolla... The early days of internal combustion had a lot of weird ways to change gears, brake, etc. I don't know how much of the eventual pseudo-standardization was agreed to and how much was just consumer preference.
Also...and this is a big difference between ICE with automatic transmissions and 1-pd driving in an EV: when you pull you foot off the accelerator, the braking begins immediately. By the time you've moved your foot to the brake pedal, you've already slowed considerably. IMO, this is much safer than without 1-pd.
Point taken. I can't wait to experience this. Hopefully it will be a smooth transition.
Oh, interesting that regen in the F150 Lightning doesn't offer anything between "on" and "off". But at least it does offer blended braking regen, thats good to know.
FWIW, even in "Level 0" regen the Hyundai offers, still has some slight regen, its just quite light. There is an instant readout of energy being used (drivetrain, accessories, HVAC, battery conditioning, etc). And in level 0 regen, we get a constant 3-4kw of regen on a downhill. It "feels" like coasting, but its not truly disabled 0 regen coasting.
Meanwhile, I know I've seen 55kw and higher being regened in level 3 and 4. And both level 3 and 4 will bring the vehicle to a complete stop.
And you're pretty much right with the descriptions. Here is how I'd describe it.
Level 0 feels like coasting in neutral
Level 1 feels like a light-normal automatic transmission lift off throttle deceleration
Level 2 feels like a normal-heavy-ish automatic transmission lift off throttle deceleration (or maybe like an auto transmission where you turn off the overdrive??)
Level 3 feels like downshifting to 2nd gear in my ZJ, or like maybe 3rd gear in 5-6 speed manual transmission?
Level 4 feels similar to above, but is slightly more aggressive, and brings you to a complete stop.
Strangely, when you adjust the 1 pedal driving modes, the resistance in the throttle changes. IE, the relative amount of throttle pedal travel needed to keep a certain speed, feels like it changes (or has more resistance? Its hard to tell which it is exactly).
I do think letting people know when friction brakes have been engaged, with something like a dashboard light/dial/indicator, is a good idea, especially for a vehicle that might be towing heavy loads.
Meaning while its a GOOD idea to be "dragging the brakes" and regening tons of power on a mountain pass. Its a BAD idea if instead of regening energy, you'd been dragging friction brakes without knowing it, so when the time comes that the brakes are needed, they could already be overheated. I'd love to know better when thats happening.
This is my experience so far. It may change with more experience, but so far both my wife and I separately/independently have found the same thing.
Good point, and interesting to think about.
Although, in most situations I'm already "covering the brake", as I don't have to keep the throttle pedal depressed to keep forward momentum, so the foot is already over the brake pedal.
This would be a really interesting one to see some testing/data about which had shorter stopping distances.
Either way, I'm glad to hear that you/others still treat it like a brake pedal. I know some people locally who I'd be worried about remembering, and I've read some comments from others on Reddit (about the Ioniq 9), that sound like they're not as diligent, and that does worry me.
Stuff like this.
To clarify: There’s always regen in the Fords. The choice is between 1-PD, aggressive-braking regen vs coasting regen.
This is pretty much like what the Ford provides when 1-PD is off.
I believe Level 4 is similar to Ford’s 1-PD or close.
Yes. This happens with Ford too.
Yes. I agree. But it needs to be non-intrusive so people don’t think it’s a warning light or emergency.
This is why the various levels of regen/1-pd and user-friendly options is great. You can change this to accommodate your approach to the specific driving conditions.
I could only find one science article that studied this. They studied people driving on a simulator, not actually driving a real vehicle. Their conclusion is that people in 1-PD mode hesitate more before braking. So that would suggest I’m wrong about the safety improvement. I’ll have to look more into this. If I’m hesitating more then I don’t want to use it. If it’s partly because the drivers were unfamiliar with 1-PD, that’s different.
Congrats on your new ride! We almost also made the switch to the Ioniq 9 from our Ioniq 5 but couldn't make the numbers work. Our Ioniq 5 is adequate for our family needs and the 9 would be much nicer and the extra space would definitely be beneficial for us but the cost difference to make the switch just isn't in the budget for us right now. I'm also considering a used EV9 which is a bit smaller but older so available cheaper on the used market. I think at this point we're just going to wait it out until the Scout comes out and make do for now.
Welcome to the all-electric family!
Welcome to the all-electric family!
Thanks
.Its been a bit of an adventure, as this was a big decision for us. Saying I belabored it might be understating things.
I hear you on the numbers/the cost. For us this was right on the edge of what we can afford. Well, without dipping into more significant savings or cutting savings for the future (like we wanted to make sure we can still fund the years IRA's, etc).
The difference is that we were pretty sure that we'd be needing/wanting vehicles with more space in the next few years, and this seemed like the best time available to do that. As almost no matter what, it seems like vehicle prices will be up in 2-3 years (Tax credit being gone by EOM is an automatic $7500 price increase, then the general tariff/inflation issues). And we got ours for about the same as/less than many of the other comparable vehicles (even compared to lightly used ones in many situations).
Ironically, the "living" with the vehicle part is probably the least difficult part so far. If you're in the habit of recharging a PHEV, the EV is no different. And we used the PHEV like an EV, and were sometimes charging it 2-3 full times per day, so we've got that habit.
For the first week we sometimes didn't charge it in for a day or few. But I think that is because we have some range anxiety/unfamiliarity. So every day starting with a baseline of 80%, seems to help with that.
I think the lowest we've been down to in a day was ~58% charge. And that day we did ~90 miles or so.
Oh, and we're consistently seeing a smidge over 400 miles of range projected for a full charge (322 miles of range shown at 80%). Not bad for something that is supposed to do 320 miles of range.
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