Air Suspension vs. Coils - Long Term Durability vs. Real Capability

[cyure]

Just to clarify ClearLidz are not OEM.

Exactly. That’s why I’m very happy my Scout will have a glass roof. OEM and sealed properly and I still get to see the sky rain or shine which is my favorite part of owning my Wrangler.

 

[pwrofgrayskull]

*** This is important ***

Comparing a STOCK production truck or SUV to a modified truck or SUV is a huge distinction.

You also need to take into consideration that the main population of buyers are not willing to void a warranty on a $60,000+ EV truck out of the gate to crawl boulders. We need to be realistic about Scout SUV and Truck STOCK capabilities, which should be super impressive.

“Void a warranty” is a little broad, but I know what you mean. My understanding is it doesn’t automatically void the vehicle’s warranty and it doesn’t automatically void the warranty in relation to suspension components and related parts either. With that said, if an owner modifies parts or installs/replaces parts that cause issues then yes, absolutely rightfully so you will not get any warranty help in getting things resolved. A small, well-designed and quality lift (sometimes even offered by or through the OEM) shouldn’t cause issues or even necessarily void warranty coverage (depends on the dealership and manufacturer though). Cutting and welding is a whole different ballgame though. I’d save that for after the warranty period unless you just have cash absolutely burning a hole in your pocket.

 

[Chavannigans]

*** This is important ***

Comparing a STOCK production truck or SUV to a modified truck or SUV is a huge distinction.

You also need to take into consideration that the main population of buyers are not willing to void a warranty on a $60,000+ EV truck out of the gate to crawl boulders. We need to be realistic about Scout SUV and Truck STOCK capabilities, which should be super impressive.

There is no getting around their weight. Even with a perfect suspension setup an EV will struggle climbing the same obstacles as a lighter ICE vehicle with the same suspension.

Snow and mud wheeling will also be more challenging.

But nobody has seen what a Scout is capable of yet either.

I imagine there won’t be any national forestry roads they can’t handle, but without a solid state battery trails like the Rubicon will be tough, if not impossible.

 

[Chavannigans]

“Void a warranty” is a little broad, but I know what you mean. My understanding is it doesn’t automatically void the vehicle’s warranty and it doesn’t automatically void the warranty in relation to suspension components and related parts either. With that said, if an owner modifies parts or installs/replaces parts that cause issues then yes, absolutely rightfully so you will not get any warranty help in getting things resolved. A small, well-designed and quality lift (sometimes even offered by or through the OEM) shouldn’t cause issues or even necessarily void warranty coverage (depends on the dealership and manufacturer though). Cutting and welding is a whole different ballgame though. I’d save that for after the warranty period unless you just have cash absolutely burning a hole in your pocket.

We dont know Scouts official warranty policy yet, and while they do say they will be designed to be modified, almost every auto manufacturer out there will completely void your vehicles warranty if you modify the frame. Flat out.

Many of them will deny powertrain warranties if you run oversized tires too.

So I would just design with the configurator the way you want it until the warranty period is over.

 

[dreamweaver]

Exactly. That’s why I’m very happy my Scout will have a glass roof. OEM and sealed properly and I still get to see the sky rain or shine which is my favorite part of owning my Wrangler.

I concur . It makes the inside of the vehicle feel so much larger with a glass roof. My Lincolns overhead glass is only about 2/3. But, it makes a big difference. My wife was not a believer in the glass roof, mainly because I NEVER opened it; until I did a little experiment. I purposely closed the shade to see if she would notice. The first time I did it we where on a long drive. About 40 miles from home she said something was different about my car and was fiddling with the sun visor light. . I reach up and opened the overhead shade and ask if that might have been it. I got the you a-- look and she said yes. I didn't rub it in. I will still get vehicle with glass roofs.

 

[chucchinchilla]

"main population of buyers are not willing to void a warranty"

I'm hoping that most Scout buyers are so passionate about their vehicles that they want to make them their own.

IMO that has nothing to do with levels of passion and everything to do with modern vehicles offering what customers want out of the box either as standard equipment or an upgrade package. As far as warranty coverage is concerned, remember thanks to the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act the manufacturer can only void a warranty claim due to mods if they can prove a causal relationship between the mod and the failure.

 

[R1TVT]

"main population of buyers are not willing to void a warranty"

I'm hoping that most Scout buyers are so passionate about their vehicles that they want to make them their own.

Got it, I was being more realistic about Scout's "overall" future customer base.

If we are being honest, there will be a very small percentage of Scout owners that will specifically Rock Crawl their new Scouts, and an even smaller percentage that would consider voiding a warranty. I think many new Scout owners will participate in other forms of "off-roading", but more likely --> Oversand / Beach access, Class IV, Overlanding, Back country access, etc. Same would be true for towing BTW.

 

[pwrofgrayskull]

Got it, I was being more realistic about Scout's "overall" future customer base.

If we are being honest, there will be a very small percentage of Scout owners that will specifically Rock Crawl their new Scouts, and an even smaller percentage that would consider voiding a warranty. I think many new Scout owners will participate in other forms of "off-roading", but more likely --> Oversand / Beach access, Class IV, Overlanding, Back country access, etc. Same would be true for towing BTW.

For sure, agreed. It could end up being a very small percentage depending on the final price of the vehicles as well as the community (and their enthusiasm level) and demographic that embraces them when they arrive.

Also as Chavannigans noted above, the weight will likely be a limiting factor in many ways. It’s going to be tough to engineer these vehicles to be a reasonable weight and obviously heavier vehicles make obstacles so much harder than a lighter vehicle. It’s harder to make a heavy vehicle as reliable as a light vehicle when taking it through rough stuff as well.

Location obviously also plays an enormous role when it comes to how many of them hit the dirt and/or rocks.

 

[R1TVT]

I imagine there won’t be any national forestry roads they can’t handle, but without a solid state battery trails like the Rubicon will be tough, if not impossible.

I can see this being possible for Scout too: https://stories.rivian.com/r1s-first-production-ev-rubicon-trail

Journey Details

• The Quad-Motor R1S that drove the trail was entirely stock, including its 34-inch Pirelli all-terrain tires. The only additional equipment was a set of steel rock sliders, front tow hitch receivers and roof rack.
• The vehicle entered the trail around 80% state of charge and finished with under 10% state of charge, enough to reach a nearby level 2 charger.
• The R1S used approximately 75% of the total pack energy to make the drive, the equivalent of 3 gallons of gasoline.
• The R1S was supported by two pre-production Quad-Motor R1Ts from the Rivian test and development fleet for the first leg of the trip, after which a modified Jeep Wrangler provided trail support.
• The R1S experienced no mechanical failures or tire changes in the course of the trail, but earned some cosmetic bumps and scrapes.
• The drive was completed by Rivian's test and development team that is trained and experienced in advanced off-road driving, as well as fire safety and Tread Lightly! principles.

 

[Chavannigans]

IMO that has nothing to do with levels of passion and everything to do with modern vehicles offering what customers want out of the box either as standard equipment or an upgrade package. As far as warranty coverage is concerned, remember thanks to the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act the manufacturer can only void a warranty claim due to mods if they can prove a causal relationship between the mod and the failure.

This is true, but you will still need to have the capital to fight it in court.

Dealerships will still lie and deny.

The legal costs can be prohibitive and it can take a few years to get a resolution, so you’ll also need another vehicle to drive while yours is disabled and waiting for a ruling.

If you even THINK this is a possibility for your future Scout you absolutely MUST opt out of arbitration.

Do not ever agree to arbitration with an automaker.

Go to court if you want a fair trial. There is a reason that all these corporations push for arbitration, and it isn’t your best interest.

To summarize, not everyone can pay attorneys up front to take on those cases, nor can they afford the second vehicle to drive while your case works it way through court.

 

[MountainDad]

When it comes to IFS a lot of people dont realize a "lift" is just moving your travel, not adding to it.

Your shocks are typically your limiting factor when it comes to travel. They determine how much your wheel can go up and down.

The shocks will always be the same length, unless you go full blown long travel which costs upwards of $10k and requires some serious engineering and fabrication skills.

You would also need to be comfortable with voiding your warranty in a big way because you'd be cutting and welding on the frame. Some insurance companies won't even cover your vehicle anymore if you modify the frame in any way.

So let's say the Scout comes with 12" of travel and when the vehicle is static the shock rests at 6" in the middle.

If you add a 3" lift kit, your shock will rest at 9" up the shock shaft. So it will look great and sit up ever taller than factory, but it can also perform WORSE Offroad. Why? Because you exchanged 3" in additional height by sacrificing 3" of down-travel.

Offroad, down travel is king. It is more effective than lockers in many situations, because it allows a wheel that would be airborne, to drop down and put torque down on the terrain. So if you have a lot of down travel you may not even need to engage your lockers because all 4 tires are on the ground applying power.

With a solid axle, when one side it pushed up, the other is pushed down. IFS is independent so there is no opposing force so it doesn't help when it comes to putting power down.

This guy has a phenomenal off-roading channel and breaks things down in a way that most people can understand.

Hope this helps visualize what I am saying.

This is why you see a lot of Toyotas lifting a front wheel when they are off-roading. The down travel is maxed out and there is nothing forcing the tire in the air to make contact with the ground. This issue is compounded by sway bars that try to keep the geometry the same on both sides of your IFS front. It is what gives you the "like I was driving on rails" sensation in turns on the road compared to solid axle vehicles that will be more prone to body roll.

The optional sway bar disconnects that Scout will offer will help with articulation and down travel by allowing one side to droop down further regardless of how compressed the other wheel is. But IFS will always struggle more than a solid axle Offroad due to suspension travel limitations and lack of the opposing side forcing a tire back down to the ground.

Rivians in particular are IFS and IRS (Independent Rear Suspension). So they are really not going to do well on harder trails where a lot of articulation and down travel come into play. If their torque vectoring software isn't optimized and the there is always a tire in the air they will definitely struggle more than other vehicles.

This is religion. My fully independent suspended-on-airbags Land Rover Discovery has left several Jeeps and 4Runners behind off road, a couple of which required a jack to lift their axle or pumpkin off an obstacle when a rock shifted or the driver misjudged wheel placement. Lots of videos online showing similar things. I can clear any of the obstacles that jeeps or Yotas can, with three wheels on the ground. Granted, Land Rover uses sophisticated software and traction control systems to accomplish this, but the effect is more line selection options vs a vehicle whose driver must precisely place its wheels to manage ground clearance. My Land Rover can lift itself off obstacles to a point, up to 13.5in ground clearance in Super Extended mode, but as you note that is at the cost of all negative travel, though only as long as you need to clear an obstacle. A quad motor BEV can literally turn off a motor when a wheel is in the air, so it will never spin a wheel on an open diff. If it does, it doesn't matter because each wheel is independently driven - the other three still have full ground contact and 100% of wheel torque available.

A solid axle might have more articulation but the ground clearance is fixed. Sure, you can add a lift, but that does not change ground clearance, only your center of gravity, and maybe the amount of articulation available if other aspects of the drivetrain are also adjusted. The only way to increase ground clearance with a solid axle is larger tires (one inch for every two inches of tire diameter), or adding portal axles ($$$$) Both of these are very inefficient and come with other drawbacks.

Some will say "yeah but what happens when something breaks?" Well, like anything else including a solid axle vehicle, you pay attention to maintenance and know your vehicle. I've never been left stranded in mine, and neither has anyone else I've known who drive them. Kingsley Holgate has driven modern FIS Land Rovers all over Africa, the Middle East, and Asia without issues.

 

[MountainDad]

I wish more people in the Toyota community understood these basic concepts, though I'll argue that the front control arm length is the limiting factor more so than shocks. The longer shocks put the control arms in a more drooped position, giving them less ability to drop further. Toyota UCAs are very short, so I'm really hoping Scout can shift the control arm mounting inwards and give us longer arms. I'd happily donate my lower frunk space to the cause!

You can upgrade those too

 

[Chavannigans]

I can see this being possible for Scout too: https://stories.rivian.com/r1s-first-production-ev-rubicon-trail

Journey Details

• The Quad-Motor R1S that drove the trail was entirely stock, including its 34-inch Pirelli all-terrain tires. The only additional equipment was a set of steel rock sliders, front tow hitch receivers and roof rack.
• The vehicle entered the trail around 80% state of charge and finished with under 10% state of charge, enough to reach a nearby level 2 charger.
• The R1S used approximately 75% of the total pack energy to make the drive, the equivalent of 3 gallons of gasoline.
• The R1S was supported by two pre-production Quad-Motor R1Ts from the Rivian test and development fleet for the first leg of the trip, after which a modified Jeep Wrangler provided trail support.
• The R1S experienced no mechanical failures or tire changes in the course of the trail, but earned some cosmetic bumps and scrapes.
• The drive was completed by Rivian's test and development team that is trained and experienced in advanced off-road driving, as well as fire safety and Tread Lightly! principles.

Not buying that. Looks great on paper though.

There are plenty of vehicles that can bypass the main obstacles on the trail.

It’s disingenuous to say “A Rivian can do the Rubicon Trail.”

That’s like saying you went to Disneyworld but hung out in the parking lot the whole time.

 

[MountainDad]

I can see this being possible for Scout too: https://stories.rivian.com/r1s-first-production-ev-rubicon-trail

Journey Details

• The vehicle entered the trail around 80% state of charge and finished with under 10% state of charge, enough to reach a nearby level 2 charger.
• The R1S used approximately 75% of the total pack energy to make the drive, the equivalent of 3 gallons of gasoline.

So in other words the Rivian has the equivalent of a 4 gallon gas tank, in an extreme off-road driving situation.

This is EXACTLY why I want a range extender. My Land Rover has a 22.5 gallon fuel tank no matter how I drive it. 22 miles off-road, and pretty much no matter how I drive it, I'm pretty sure I'd have at least a half tank left...probably closer to 3/4.

 

[R1TVT]

So in other words the Rivian has the equivalent of a 4 gallon gas tank, in an extreme off-road driving situation.

This is EXACTLY why I want a range extender. My Land Rover has a 22.5 gallon fuel tank no matter how I drive it. 22 miles off-road, and pretty much no matter how I drive it, I'm pretty sure I'd have at least a half tank left...probably closer to 3/4.

Sounds to me like they are saying that the electricity they used discharging 75% of the battery is equivalent to burning just 3 gallons of gas.

 

[R1TVT]

Not buying that. Looks great on paper though.

There are plenty of vehicles that can bypass the main obstacles on the trail.

It’s disingenuous to say “A Rivian can do the Rubicon Trail.”

That’s like saying you went to Disneyworld but hung out in the parking lot the whole time.

Crissakes - Don't shoot the messenger! LOL

 

[Chavannigans]

Crissakes - Don't shoot the messenger! LOL

I just see this referenced too often by people.

I can technically go end to end on the Rubicon trail in my Lexus, but that would be me taking all the bypasses and spending hours stacking rocks at each challenging area.

It would probably look like a crumpled beer can underneath it too.

As much as I love Scouts, and doing really stupid things off pavement… I just don’t think they will be able to complete the entire Rubicon even with the factory front and rear lockers and 37”s.

They are pretty long and wheelbase is a big factor on some of those obstacles. They will be heavy.
They will also be a nightmare to recover if something does break.

 

[cyure]

I just see this referenced too often by people.

I can technically go end to end on the Rubicon trail in my Lexus, but that would be me taking all the bypasses and spending hours stacking rocks at each challenging area.

It would probably look like a crumpled beer can underneath it too.

As much as I love Scouts, and doing really stupid things off pavement… I just don’t think they will be able to complete the entire Rubicon even with the factory front and rear lockers and 37”s.

They are pretty long and wheelbase is a big factor on some of those obstacles. They will be heavy.
They will also be a nightmare to recover if something does break.

Okay I keep thinking oh the Scout will be too expensive for people to potentially beat up on a trail.

But then I got to thinking, all the suspension work and wheels and tires etc on some of these offroad rigs looks like it costs a pretty penny.

So is it the same outlay of cash just looks a little different

 

[MountainDad]

Sounds to me like they are saying that the electricity they used discharging 75% of the battery is equivalent to burning just 3 gallons of gas.

Yes, exactly, but that 3gal of gas represents 75% of the energy capacity of that vehicle under those conditions.

 

[J Alynn]

Exactly. That’s why I’m very happy my Scout will have a glass roof. OEM and sealed properly and I still get to see the sky rain or shine which is my favorite part of owning my Wrangler.

I’m gambling the cabana if it makes it to production