Air Suspension vs. Coils - Long Term Durability vs. Real Capability

[6-ScoutFamily]

It does "look" gimmicky, and you could do some party tricks with it camping, but it allows you to perform a super tight radius turn off-road, so it is a trail assistance feature (like any feature you might use in specific off-road situations):

Rivian's New "Kick Turn" Is the Original "Tank Turn" Kicked Up in Usefulness—Here's How It Works

No longer just a party trick, Kick Turn is a genuinely useful off-road tool with reasonable safeguards.

www.motortrend.com

I’d like to see this on the Black Bear, first switchback below the ruins.

 

[Chavannigans]

Agreed. They just never hammered the off-road side and SM has made that a major focus along with 8-day a week which I always find odd-I get the concept but wouldn’t a 7-day week truck still do the same things and be factual against the modern day calendar system ???

Maybe a software update will break the space time continuum.

 

[pwrofgrayskull]

I’d like to see this on the Black Bear, first switchback below the ruins.

Agreed. I’ll get out and watch on the first one before I decide if I want to be inside on the second switchback and beyond.
That trail is no joke.

 

[speedrye]

When it comes to IFS a lot of people dont realize a "lift" is just moving your travel, not adding to it.

Your shocks are typically your limiting factor when it comes to travel. They determine how much your wheel can go up and down.

The shocks will always be the same length, unless you go full blown long travel which costs upwards of $10k and requires some serious engineering and fabrication skills.

You would also need to be comfortable with voiding your warranty in a big way because you'd be cutting and welding on the frame. Some insurance companies won't even cover your vehicle anymore if you modify the frame in any way.

So let's say the Scout comes with 12" of travel and when the vehicle is static the shock rests at 6" in the middle.

If you add a 3" lift kit, your shock will rest at 9" up the shock shaft. So it will look great and sit up ever taller than factory, but it can also perform WORSE Offroad. Why? Because you exchanged 3" in additional height by sacrificing 3" of down-travel.

Offroad, down travel is king. It is more effective than lockers in many situations, because it allows a wheel that would be airborne, to drop down and put torque down on the terrain. So if you have a lot of down travel you may not even need to engage your lockers because all 4 tires are on the ground applying power.

With a solid axle, when one side it pushed up, the other is pushed down. IFS is independent so there is no opposing force so it doesn't help when it comes to putting power down.

This guy has a phenomenal off-roading channel and breaks things down in a way that most people can understand.

Hope this helps visualize what I am saying.

This is why you see a lot of Toyotas lifting a front wheel when they are off-roading. The down travel is maxed out and there is nothing forcing the tire in the air to make contact with the ground. This issue is compounded by sway bars that try to keep the geometry the same on both sides of your IFS front. It is what gives you the "like I was driving on rails" sensation in turns on the road compared to solid axle vehicles that will be more prone to body roll.

The optional sway bar disconnects that Scout will offer will help with articulation and down travel by allowing one side to droop down further regardless of how compressed the other wheel is. But IFS will always struggle more than a solid axle Offroad due to suspension travel limitations and lack of the opposing side forcing a tire back down to the ground.

Rivians in particular are IFS and IRS (Independent Rear Suspension). So they are really not going to do well on harder trails where a lot of articulation and down travel come into play. If their torque vectoring software isn't optimized and the there is always a tire in the air they will definitely struggle more than other vehicles.

I wish more people in the Toyota community understood these basic concepts, though I'll argue that the front control arm length is the limiting factor more so than shocks. The longer shocks put the control arms in a more drooped position, giving them less ability to drop further. Toyota UCAs are very short, so I'm really hoping Scout can shift the control arm mounting inwards and give us longer arms. I'd happily donate my lower frunk space to the cause!

 

[chucchinchilla]

So the Traveler and Terra are planning to offer optional air springs with active damping and a solid rear axle, and I wanted to open a more grounded discussion around when air suspension actually makes sense for a vehicle like this - and when it may not.

I'm not anti-air suspension. I am, however, someone who intends to own one of these long term, use it off-road for real, and tow with the Terra Harvester setup.

Here's what I'm thinking and I'd genuinely love input from others - especially anyone with long-term ownership experience on modern air systems.

Why air suspension could make sense for Scout

There are legitimate advantages that are hard to ignore:

• Load leveling for towing or heavy cargo without rear squat
• Variable ride height
• Potentially excellent ride quality when tuned well
• Packaging flexibility with a solid rear axle

For a mulit-role vehicle that will tow, road-trip, and see trails, that's compelling on paper.

The concerns

Where I hesitate is long-term durability and failure modes - especially outside warranty.
Across Ram, Jeep, GM, Rivian, etc., the patterns seem consistent:

• Small leaks = compressor overwork = cascading failures
• Moisture intrusion and cold-weather issues
• Valve blocks, height sensors, and software calibration becoming the weak links
• When something does go wrong, repairs aren't trivial - or cheap

Specific questions I think matter for Traveler/Terra

These are the things I'd personally want clarity on before choosing air vs. steel:

• Is air suspension truly optional across the range, or will certain trims/packages require it?
• If equipped with air:
  • Can the system fully isolate corners (no cross-flow) for stability off-road?
  • Is there a manual or mechanical fail-safe if the system faults?
  • Can the vehicle remain driveable at a fixed height if air control fails?
• Cold-weather strategy:
  • Desiccant/dryer serviceability?
  • Compressor placement and protection?
• Long-term service philosophy:
  • Are air springs modular and individually replaceable?
  • Will replacement parts be reasonably accessible outside a dealer network?
• Non-air alternative:
  • Will there be a coil-spring or steel-spring configuration tuned specifically for off-road durability and towing?
  • If so, is that configuration receiving the same level of ride damping development as the air option?

Where I currently land (open to being convinced otherwise)

If Scout can execute a simple, overbuilt, serviceable air system - great. I'm listening.

But if the air option adds complexity without a clear durability advantage, I'd personally lean toward a well-tuned steel suspension with quality dampers, especially for a vehicle I expect to keep over a decade.

The fact that Scout is pairing this with a solid rear axle tells me durability is already a priority. I'm curious how far that philosophy extends into the suspension choices.

I'm posting this in good faith - not to criticize, but because I think this is one of those decisions that will define how these vehicles are perceived five or ten years from now.

Would love to hear:

• Scout team input (as much as you can share)
• Owners with long-term air suspension experience (good or bad)
• Anyone else thinking through the Traveler/Terra decision with similar priorities

Looking forward to the discussion.

I really like this OP and am in the same boat as you. My biggest concern with Scout is ride quality with that solid rear axle/BOF build. Reality is most customers including myself will cover 99% of total miles driven on pavement. Horray if it can do the Rubicon Trail, but if it's awful to drive everywhere else I'll probably tap out.

 

[pwrofgrayskull]

I wish more people in the Toyota community understood these basic concepts, though I'll argue that the front control arm length is the limiting factor more so than shocks. The longer shocks put the control arms in a more drooped position, giving them less ability to drop further. Toyota UCAs are very short, so I'm really hoping Scout can shift the control arm mounting inwards and give us longer arms. I'd happily donate my lower frunk space to the cause!

I’d happily donate ALL of my frunk space to the cause.

 

[J Alynn]

I really like this OP and am in the same boat as you. My biggest concern with Scout is ride quality with that solid rear axle/BOF build. Reality is most customers including myself will cover 99% of total miles driven on pavement. Horray if it can do the Rubicon Trail, but if it's awful to drive everywhere else I'll probably tap out.

That’s back to my experiences knowing Wranglers are not pleasant on the road. Our Bronco was leaps and bounds better so if comparable I can live with that level of road comfort but more would certainly be better

 

[cyure]

That’s back to my experiences knowing Wranglers are not pleasant on the road. Our Bronco was leaps and bounds better so if comparable I can live with that level of road comfort but more would certainly be better

If it’s better than my Wrangler (and how could it not be) and doesn’t have a death wobble I’m in!

 

[J Alynn]

If it’s better than my Wrangler (and how could it not be) and doesn’t have a death wobble I’m in!

Oh it should be night and day for you

 

[cyure]

Oh it should be night and day for you

I love my ClearLidz. I feel claustrophobic with the panels above my head. However ClearLidz doesn’t seal on the sides by the top of the doors as well as the regular panels. When I was driving in the snow the last few weeks when I would turn if the wind was blowing just right it was snowing in the car!

 

[J Alynn]

I love my ClearLidz. I feel claustrophobic with the panels above my head. However ClearLidz doesn’t seal on the sides by the top of the doors as well as the regular panels. When I was driving in the snow the last few weeks when I would turn if the wind was blowing just right it was snowing in the car!

Broncos had same issues with their production tops so not surprised

 

[chucchinchilla]

That’s back to my experiences knowing Wranglers are not pleasant on the road. Our Bronco was leaps and bounds better so if comparable I can live with that level of road comfort but more would certainly be better

I had a Wrangler rental in Maui earlier this year and while the novelty was fun and think the Wrangler is a great vehicle for what it is, it's just not something I could live with full time. Hopefully we have a well balanced vehicle here that doesn't require an expensive air suspension upgrade to have a good ride.

 

[SrfnFly227]

I’m not in disagreement here, but make no mistake - lifting the vehicle absolutely does not automatically eliminate capability. Not all lift methods are built the same.

I agree completely. A properly designed suspension is the key. I have wheeled my Jeep stock and then with a bolt on 3" suspension lift. Obstacles I climbed fine stock suddenly gave me a little a trouble lifted. I didn't really understand why at the time. I was dragging the belly a lot less, but I was spinning tires more.

I've since cut off every stock mount and designed a proper 3 link front/4 link rear. It's night and day difference off road and I crawl right over things that bigger Jeeps than mine will spin tires on. That's not driver talent by any means, it's a suspension that was well thought out and just flat performs.

When it comes to IFS a lot of people dont realize a "lift" is just moving your travel, not adding to it.

Your shocks are typically your limiting factor when it comes to travel. They determine how much your wheel can go up and down.

The shocks will always be the same length, unless you go full blown long travel which costs upwards of $10k and requires some serious engineering and fabrication skills.

You would also need to be comfortable with voiding your warranty in a big way because you'd be cutting and welding on the frame. Some insurance companies won't even cover your vehicle anymore if you modify the frame in any way.

So let's say the Scout comes with 12" of travel and when the vehicle is static the shock rests at 6" in the middle.

If you add a 3" lift kit, your shock will rest at 9" up the shock shaft. So it will look great and sit up ever taller than factory, but it can also perform WORSE Offroad. Why? Because you exchanged 3" in additional height by sacrificing 3" of down-travel.

Offroad, down travel is king. It is more effective than lockers in many situations, because it allows a wheel that would be airborne, to drop down and put torque down on the terrain. So if you have a lot of down travel you may not even need to engage your lockers because all 4 tires are on the ground applying power.

With a solid axle, when one side it pushed up, the other is pushed down. IFS is independent so there is no opposing force so it doesn't help when it comes to putting power down.

This guy has a phenomenal off-roading channel and breaks things down in a way that most people can understand.

Hope this helps visualize what I am saying.

This is why you see a lot of Toyotas lifting a front wheel when they are off-roading. The down travel is maxed out and there is nothing forcing the tire in the air to make contact with the ground. This issue is compounded by sway bars that try to keep the geometry the same on both sides of your IFS front. It is what gives you the "like I was driving on rails" sensation in turns on the road compared to solid axle vehicles that will be more prone to body roll.

The optional sway bar disconnects that Scout will offer will help with articulation and down travel by allowing one side to droop down further regardless of how compressed the other wheel is. But IFS will always struggle more than a solid axle Offroad due to suspension travel limitations and lack of the opposing side forcing a tire back down to the ground.

Rivians in particular are IFS and IRS (Independent Rear Suspension). So they are really not going to do well on harder trails where a lot of articulation and down travel come into play. If their torque vectoring software isn't optimized and the there is always a tire in the air they will definitely struggle more than other vehicles.

I probably should have disclaimed my post with the fact that I was speaking to my knowledge base, which is strictly solid axle. You bring up good points with IFS being a different ball game. The Scout will be both (unless I'm remembering that wrong) so pluses and minuses from both worlds will come in to play.

 

[Chavannigans]

I wish more people in the Toyota community understood these basic concepts, though I'll argue that the front control arm length is the limiting factor more so than shocks. The longer shocks put the control arms in a more drooped position, giving them less ability to drop further. Toyota UCAs are very short, so I'm really hoping Scout can shift the control arm mounting inwards and give us longer arms. I'd happily donate my lower frunk space to the cause!

Oh for sure. I am just trying not to get into the weeds since there are so many variables that can limit travel.

The vehicles body, shock diameter, control arm design, knuckle designs, body mounts, tire width, steering components, sway bars, tire height, etc.

Typically the shocks lengths are what limits it overall, but there are a lot of other factors too.

 

[cyure]

I had a Wrangler rental in Maui earlier this year and while the novelty was fun and think the Wrangler is a great vehicle for what it is, it's just not something I could live with full time. Hopefully we have a well balanced vehicle here that doesn't require an expensive air suspension upgrade to have a good ride.

I really love my Wrangler but after 15 years I will be ready for a smoother ride that’s for darn sure.

 

[R1TVT]

I've since cut off every stock mount and designed a proper 3 link front/4 link rear. It's night and day difference off road and I crawl right over things that bigger Jeeps than mine will spin tires on. That's not driver talent by any means, it's a suspension that was well thought out and just flat performs.

*** This is important ***

Comparing a STOCK production truck or SUV to a modified truck or SUV is a huge distinction.

You also need to take into consideration that the main population of buyers are not willing to void a warranty on a $60,000+ EV truck out of the gate to crawl boulders. We need to be realistic about Scout SUV and Truck STOCK capabilities, which should be super impressive.

 

[speedrye]

*** This is important ***

Comparing a STOCK production truck or SUV to a modified truck or SUV is a huge distinction.

You also need to take into consideration that the main population of buyers are not willing to void a warranty on a $60,000+ EV truck out of the gate to crawl boulders. We need to be realistic about Scout SUV and Truck STOCK capabilities, which should be super impressive.

I'm actually hoping for the opposite. More than half the Wranglers I see on the road have the suspensions modified, voiding the warranty. I hope Scout owners follow the same path, making their vehicles their own and loving the heck out of them with a huge aftermarket to support that love. I'm also hoping there's nothing complicated about Scouts' suspensions so that voiding a warranty really won't matter. I would never modify a Rivian's suspension for that reason alone.

 

[R1TVT]

I'm actually hoping for the opposite. More than half the Wranglers I see on the road have the suspensions modified, voiding the warranty. I hope Scout owners follow the same path, making their vehicles their own and loving the heck out of them with a huge aftermarket to support that love. I'm also hoping there's nothing complicated about Scouts' suspensions so that voiding a warranty really won't matter. I would never modify a Rivian's suspension for that reason alone.

You're hoping for the opposite of what?

Sorry, trying to understand your point. Of course anyone willfully interested in voiding a warranty can do it, that's on them of course! Sounds like Scout will make modifications easy and likely support easy upgrades, but that may be very different from warranty-voiding work.

 

[speedrye]

You're hoping for the opposite of what?

Sorry, trying to understand your point. Of course anyone willfully interested in voiding a warranty can do it, that's on them of course! Sounds like Scout will make modifications easy and likely support easy upgrades, but that may be very different from warranty-voiding work.

"main population of buyers are not willing to void a warranty"

I'm hoping that most Scout buyers are so passionate about their vehicles that they want to make them their own.

 

[pwrofgrayskull]

Broncos had same issues with their production tops so not surprised

Just to clarify ClearLidz are not OEM.