But I suspect SM will address this better than others since these are proper off-road vehicles. The Rivians were never touted as off-road capable (though to a degree they are) but Scout is pushing this
Air Suspension vs. Coils - Long Term Durability vs. Real Capability
- Thread starter Michael Gary Scout
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Hold up! Rivian has always touted their vehicles as highly capable / offroad vehicles. In fact, they offer an all-terrain package with tow hooks, A/T's, reinforced underbody shield, off-road modes (even a rock crawl mode & soft sand mode), and 4 motors if you want 'em. The Kick-Turn feature that was launched with GenII doesn't even work on pavement, and the new motors have different gearing front and back for high and low torque. I (personally) wouldn't want to take my brand new R1T to a chunky rock garden where you slip off an edge and pummel yourself to the bottom of gizzard gulch, but off-road capable? Yes, very much so. They are also more difficult to modify, which would also make them less appealing to the monster truck mod rock crawling briggade, which I totally understand. The new kick turn feature is pretty cool actually: https://stories.rivian.com/r1-gen2-quad-motor
I wonder if the Scouts will have a similar feature…
Imagine that is a lot of opposing torque for a solid axle. Maybe I am overthinking it.
Wouldn’t it have to be a quad motor to do that? Or am I not understanding it correctly.
I like the EV GWagons that can do tank turns. Now I don’t know why I would need to do that but it sure is cool!Oh shit. Yes!
There is some confusion in this thread about what causes tire spin or lack of traction off road. All the torque in the world won't help unless the suspension geometry is correct. Jeep is a perfect example of this.
A Wrangler in its stock form (especially a TJ) will crawl over just about anything. The suspension geometry is near perfect and all of the torque created is translated to traction. Owners unfortunately screw with the geometry by adding a lift in order to fit bigger tires. While it would seem to most people like that is more capable, the change in suspension geometry now leads to tire spinning or lots of bouncing (rock humping). That's anti squat coming in to play. No amount of engine will overcome poor suspension geometry.
The cybertruk has a horribly designed suspension from an off road standpoint. The videos of it getting stuck on what should be non obstacles is proof of that. If you want the Scout to be an offroad capable vehicle, it can have either air bags or springs. It just needs the control arms to have proper verticle spacing around the roll axis and CG. If you add a lift after, don't blame Scout.
A Wrangler in its stock form (especially a TJ) will crawl over just about anything. The suspension geometry is near perfect and all of the torque created is translated to traction. Owners unfortunately screw with the geometry by adding a lift in order to fit bigger tires. While it would seem to most people like that is more capable, the change in suspension geometry now leads to tire spinning or lots of bouncing (rock humping). That's anti squat coming in to play. No amount of engine will overcome poor suspension geometry.
The cybertruk has a horribly designed suspension from an off road standpoint. The videos of it getting stuck on what should be non obstacles is proof of that. If you want the Scout to be an offroad capable vehicle, it can have either air bags or springs. It just needs the control arms to have proper verticle spacing around the roll axis and CG. If you add a lift after, don't blame Scout.
Running down old people, wild boar hunting, donuts on a snow covered parking lot?
Chicago was the first place they showed off the kick-turn (upgraded tank turn) to the public actually:
The Windy City’s Off-Roading Adventure - Rivian Stories | Electric Vehicle Adventures
Thousands of participants were able to experience the thrill of an R1 Quad on an off-road course—going over dirt mounds, steep slopes and more.
stories.rivian.com
It does "look" gimmicky, and you could do some party tricks with it camping, but it allows you to perform a super tight radius turn off-road, so it is a trail assistance feature (like any feature you might use in specific off-road situations):
Rivian's New "Kick Turn" Is the Original "Tank Turn" Kicked Up in Usefulness—Here's How It Works
No longer just a party trick, Kick Turn is a genuinely useful off-road tool with reasonable safeguards.
I thought Rivians were marketed as adventure (off-road capable) vehicles. Regardless, I still believe SM can and will do better.
I believe so, kind of like a tank turn. You can get Trail Turn Assist on a Bronco or on a JL/JT (with a Tazer) as well. It’s not the same thing, but still helps in the same types of situations.
I’m not in disagreement here, but make no mistake - lifting the vehicle absolutely does not automatically eliminate capability. Not all lift methods are built the same.
When it comes to IFS a lot of people dont realize a "lift" is just moving your travel, not adding to it.
Your shocks are typically your limiting factor when it comes to travel. They determine how much your wheel can go up and down.
The shocks will always be the same length, unless you go full blown long travel which costs upwards of $10k and requires some serious engineering and fabrication skills.
You would also need to be comfortable with voiding your warranty in a big way because you'd be cutting and welding on the frame. Some insurance companies won't even cover your vehicle anymore if you modify the frame in any way.
So let's say the Scout comes with 12" of travel and when the vehicle is static the shock rests at 6" in the middle.
If you add a 3" lift kit, your shock will rest at 9" up the shock shaft. So it will look great and sit up ever taller than factory, but it can also perform WORSE Offroad. Why? Because you exchanged 3" in additional height by sacrificing 3" of down-travel.
Offroad, down travel is king. It is more effective than lockers in many situations, because it allows a wheel that would be airborne, to drop down and put torque down on the terrain. So if you have a lot of down travel you may not even need to engage your lockers because all 4 tires are on the ground applying power.
With a solid axle, when one side it pushed up, the other is pushed down. IFS is independent so there is no opposing force so it doesn't help when it comes to putting power down.
This guy has a phenomenal off-roading channel and breaks things down in a way that most people can understand.
Hope this helps visualize what I am saying.
This is why you see a lot of Toyotas lifting a front wheel when they are off-roading. The down travel is maxed out and there is nothing forcing the tire in the air to make contact with the ground. This issue is compounded by sway bars that try to keep the geometry the same on both sides of your IFS front. It is what gives you the "like I was driving on rails" sensation in turns on the road compared to solid axle vehicles that will be more prone to body roll.
The optional sway bar disconnects that Scout will offer will help with articulation and down travel by allowing one side to droop down further regardless of how compressed the other wheel is. But IFS will always struggle more than a solid axle Offroad due to suspension travel limitations and lack of the opposing side forcing a tire back down to the ground.
Rivians in particular are IFS and IRS (Independent Rear Suspension). So they are really not going to do well on harder trails where a lot of articulation and down travel come into play. If their torque vectoring software isn't optimized and the there is always a tire in the air they will definitely struggle more than other vehicles.
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Agreed. They just never hammered the off-road side and SM has made that a major focus along with 8-day a week which I always find odd-I get the concept but wouldn’t a 7-day week truck still do the same things and be factual against the modern day calendar system ???
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