The Start/Stop Button

[RodorW]

I know that we have talked multiple times on this forum about the on/off (start/stop) button. Personally, I don't think it's necessary, but I have heard the use cases for some people who want it, but looking at the bigger picture, this is why I wanted to start a new thread specifically on this topic.

In the bigger picture, start/stop buttons on electric vehicles are not really necessary, and going forward from Gen 1 to Gen 2, If the start/stop button makes it into Gen 1, how likely is it to make it into Gen 2? And I know a bunch of people have said that coming from an ice vehicle, they're used to the start/stop button and it's just more accommodating and comfortable. However, there's really no way around the button being a band-aid situation, whether it's Gen 1 or Gen 2. If Scout removes it, it's going to be a thing that people just have to get used to, whereas in Gen 1, if Scout makes it optional, (either physically or in software) a lot of people will choose to use it and then, going into Gen 2, if there is no button, it's going to be the Band-Aid again. It's going to get yanked off (sooner or later), and it's going to be a whole thing.

So my shower thought of the day, because I really hate the button in my Bolt, is this. Instead of having an on/off (start/Stop) dedicated button, Scout should move it from the steering wheel to somewhere on the dash or somewhere out of the way and make it a dedicated auxiliary button. This could be used to tell the vehicle to just stay on, or maybe like a physical "dog mode" button, but it would be out of the way and fully optional, for those (like myself) who would prefer a "get in and go" experience.

Or it could be an auxiliary switch for something else like, For example a "software reboot". In my car, I've been having issues with Android Auto. If I walk too far away with the car "on", it refuses to reconnect to the phone, while it's showing that it's connected. The only way to resolve this is to power down the car and wait at least 2 minutes for it to cycle everything to "offline", then I can turn it back on and reconnect. The issue with this is that I don't always have 2 minutes, and the Gen 2 bolt has no way to force a simple reboot. I know holding the button for about 15 seconds, the car will enter service mode, but not reboot. In Rivian (and tesla I believe), you hold two buttons on the wheel until a reboot warning pops up and keep holding to confirm. So why not make this button an easy software reboot; Vehicle in park, at 0 MPH, hold it for a set amount of time to reboot the software, and with that, it can still double as a 1-second press to tell the vehicle to stay on or maybe shut off if you want to sit in silence with no screens or lights.

 

[RodorW]

As long as it’s optional everyone wins for now, but “we” (those that don’t want/need a power button) also don’t want a pointless switch just sitting on the steering wheel, which is really the main point of this thread. We can all win if scout keeps the button, but gives us the option for what it does.

 

[R1TVT]

But we are the 50’s age range so maybe a lot of button Y or N is an age demographic ???

Negative!

To be honest, I think age plays a part, but largely I think it’s experience.

100%.

So the real answer is probably a little of both..

 

[jeremydunworth]

As long as it’s optional everyone wins for now, but “we” (those that don’t want/need a power button) also don’t want a pointless switch just sitting on the steering wheel, which is really the main point of this thread. We can all win if scout keeps the button, but gives us the option for what it does.

I was going to complain about the switch being on the steering wheel, and then I remembered there are several switches on the Hyundai Ioniq 5 steering wheel I still haven't bothered to program. As long as the switch, wherever it is located, is like thumb sized so I can spot it easily and defaults to info screen on/off, I'm happy.

 

[strider]

I don't know. From years of driving ICE I just put my right foot on the brake pedal. If the car is set in whatever mode it is that it does not move unless you push the accelerator, there should be no reason to need to press the brake pedal to shift in F or R.
I have the car set to when you don''t touch the brake or the accelerator and you are in F, the car rolls forward slowly. I tried the other mode, don't move until press accelerator, and I found the gentle rolling start like an ICE vehicle with automotive transmission was just easier to get smooth starts that don't jerk the car forward and upset my dog.

Every non-manual transmission car I have ever seen requires you to have your foot on the brake before shifting gears.

Creep vs Hold should be a choice. Tesla has removed that choice and only allows Hold. My wife still has Creep in her 2018 Model S and loves it. I like Hold so I don't have to keep my foot on the brake at stoplights.

I don't want the car to wake up when I open the door, I spend a lot of time loading stuff in the car for trips and I can easily open the car 10 or so times before I need the center screen to turn on.
As far as I have experienced in the Hyundai, the start button signals the car to turn on the infotainment screen. This is what I prefer.

So I think this is the crux of the confusion around this topic. An EV (even a Harvester) has more in common with your phone than your ICE vehicle. An EV "waking up" is nothing like starting the engine in your ICE. It is more like unlocking your phone. You can do that thousands of times per day and are not causing wear and tear on the vehicle.

Yes, after some period of time (like 30 minutes but can be longer if the vehicle is hot and it needs to run the pumps to cool down) the car will go to "sleep" where the high voltage battery is disconnected and only minimal systems run. But once you unlock or open a door the vehicle will come out of sleep and be ready for you to drive it (like when you open the cover on your laptop). At that point it doesn't matter how many times you open and close the doors, you are not making the car work any harder than you do when you lock and unlock your phone. Plus if the vehicle is plugged in during this time it is drawing power from the house and not the battery so even if you left all the doors and windows open with the HVAC running while you loaded the vehicle, the battery will not be drained.

That is good news and I'm glad Tesla handles that well. I have heard recently that Tesla does not have 360 degree camera view when parking and does not have auto stop the car when a car is detected passing behind you when you are backing out of your driveway or parking space. The Hyundai has both of these and as the only accident I was judged at fault (it was not my fault the crazy guy speeding down my street was the problem in my opinion) was when I backing out my driveway and was hit by a very angry biology professor who the first thing he said was "this is the second time this year this has happenned the other one was a garbage truck", I really appreciate the, "there is an idiot speeding behind you, don't back up right now" feature in the Hyundai. Which again, I have heard Tesla does not have, but I don't have personal verification of that.

Tesla does not have a top-down 360-degree view but they have recently added cross-traffic warnings and auto braking for both vehicles and pedestrians.

 

[strider]

No worries. I also see part of my problem here. You mentioned get in car, don't put foot on brake pedal. I had do some math here, 34 years of driving gas cars, it is pretty hard to not put my right foot on the brake pedal when I get in the car.

I was thinking specifically about your having to change the charge mode settings. In that instance, say if I need to manually charge the car and bypass the schedule, I will open the car door but just reach across the seat and touch the screen - I won't actually sit in the driver's seat. So that's what I was thinking when I said you would not hit the brake pedal.

I’m just amazed at the amount of debate on this button. It’s literally 1/3 second more as you move your arm across to hit it. I get some don’t like and others want. We all get it doesn’t need to exist but at the risk of offending others-and only saying it to make a point-I don’t have a baby or a damn pet so why put the pet mode in? Reason-they can, it’s fairly easy, people romanticize about their dog next to them on the bench. And I’m 100% cool with it. However, to me, having your dog on a front bench seat with risk of a head on collision is a lack of love for your pet-but again, I don’t care! It’s a button. Jamie already implied you won’t need to use it but literally this debate continues and to what direction or outcome. The button eases the minds of many of us who don’t have an EV so it’s a transition element. And to add fuel to the fire, our brand new Lexus RZ EV has a start button-and my wife loves that. But we are the 50’s age range so maybe a lot of button Y or N is an age demographic ???

I think we will find that it's way more than 1/3 of a second.

AFAIK we only have confirmation from Jamie that we can exit the car without pushing the button. I would love to know if we can also ignore it for starting the car. If that is true then your baby/pet mode argument is valid and like someone mentioned I will have my son 3D print a different cover or something for the button and go on my merry way.

FWIW I'm in my early 50's and am anti-button

As for not letting this discussion die, with 20 months to go before we get our Scouts, what else are we going to do? I don't take any of this personally and hope none of you do either. I realize I can sound quite worked up but I am not upset about any of this. I love a spirited debate/discussion and enjoy the opportunity to share my experiences (as well as my opinions and biases). I have been arguing with people on the Internet for decades and view it as a bit of a hobby.

 

[J Alynn]

I was thinking specifically about your having to change the charge mode settings. In that instance, say if I need to manually charge the car and bypass the schedule, I will open the car door but just reach across the seat and touch the screen - I won't actually sit in the driver's seat. So that's what I was thinking when I said you would not hit the brake pedal.

I think we will find that it's way more than 1/3 of a second.

AFAIK we only have confirmation from Jamie that we can exit the car without pushing the button. I would love to know if we can also ignore it for starting the car. If that is true then your baby/pet mode argument is valid and like someone mentioned I will have my son 3D print a different cover or something for the button and go on my merry way.

FWIW I'm in my early 50's and am anti-button

As for not letting this discussion die, with 20 months to go before we get our Scouts, what else are we going to do? I don't take any of this personally and hope none of you do either. I realize I can sound quite worked up but I am not upset about any of this. I love a spirited debate/discussion and enjoy the opportunity to share my experiences (as well as my opinions and biases). I have been arguing with people on the Internet for decades and view it as a bit of a hobby.

Early 50’s is same but you been in EVs way long than a majority of people here (hence 85% of reservations on hybrid) so new to us old people is scary to us old people. (I don’t see myself as old) but we are the generation that is most familiar with Scout and was less familiar with electronics than all the younger generations. But if the Lexus was ultra “modern” and tech-y, my wife would not have even considered it so there is power and truth to comfort of the mind.

 

[J Alynn]

I was thinking specifically about your having to change the charge mode settings. In that instance, say if I need to manually charge the car and bypass the schedule, I will open the car door but just reach across the seat and touch the screen - I won't actually sit in the driver's seat. So that's what I was thinking when I said you would not hit the brake pedal.
I don’t take any of it personally. I ignore a few people on here but you seem to have taken the charge of annihilating one of them so that makes me less stressed
I think we will find that it's way more than 1/3 of a second.

AFAIK we only have confirmation from Jamie that we can exit the car without pushing the button. I would love to know if we can also ignore it for starting the car. If that is true then your baby/pet mode argument is valid and like someone mentioned I will have my son 3D print a different cover or something for the button and go on my merry way.

FWIW I'm in my early 50's and am anti-button

As for not letting this discussion die, with 20 months to go before we get our Scouts, what else are we going to do? I don't take any of this personally and hope none of you do either. I realize I can sound quite worked up but I am not upset about any of this. I love a spirited debate/discussion and enjoy the opportunity to share my experiences (as well as my opinions and biases). I have been arguing with people on the Internet for decades and view it as a bit of a hobby.

 

[oldgeeksguide]

But how many times are you "looking at the stars" or "needing the headlights on" vs just getting into the car and driving and then getting out of the car and going inside? I'm am guessing it is at least 100:1. So you want to add 30 seconds of waiting and pushing useless buttons to every drive for that 1/100 you need something different? For that 1/100 time there could be an "On/Off" button on the screen. It could appear automatically whenever the vehicle is in Park so you would not have to navigate any menus.

I am all for tactility and Tesla's relentless desire to remove all physical controls is the main reason I am here. But this button literally serves no purpose in an EV (or an EREV - the Start/Stop button will NOT start the Harvester engine).

30 seconds to push a button? Where’d that come from? My current car has a button and I have to pause maybe 1s after pushing it before putting it in gear and driving, so maybe 2s max (assuming it takes me a whole second to push it, which is generous). My old car didn’t even require the 1s pause, I could just push, shift and go without pausing. Don’t blame a button if your car takes 30s before it can move, that has absolutely nothing to do with a button, it’s just a very poor design/implementation.

As I’ve said, repeatedly, that’s great for you, I have no problem with a system that allows you to ignore the button, but I and many people here have lots of reasons to want/need one. Please don’t invalidate us because of your personal preferences.

This is exactly why I’ve stopped listing specific use cases, because every time I do someone comes back with “you can have a mode for this and you don’t really need that and you can live without that other thing once you get used to it”. That totally misses the point. I don’t need 15 different modes for every different situation that I happen to mention. That’s way more complicated than a simple button, and it guarantees that there’s a 16th mode that no one thought to include that, again, would be solved with the same simple solution. It ain’t broke, stop trying to “fix” it.

 

[04Ram2500Hemi]

“…pry the start/stop button from my cold dead hands”

Don’t take away my Start Button!

 

[jeremydunworth]

I was thinking specifically about your having to change the charge mode settings. In that instance, say if I need to manually charge the car and bypass the schedule, I will open the car door but just reach across the seat and touch the screen - I won't actually sit in the driver's seat. So that's what I was thinking when I said you would not hit the brake pedal.

First, I'm not flexible enough to reach the screen to change the charge mode settings without sitting the driver or passenger seat. I applaud that you are.
Second, I did the experiment leaving the gym last night. If I get in the driver seat, don't step on the brake, and do press the start button, the car enters "Accessory mode", where I can do all the things i might want to do, including fixing android auto or bluetooth connection issues which do happen from time to time. Then when I am ready to go, I have to step on brake and press the start button again. I agree, once I have "turned on" the car, it would be nice if stepping on the brake put it into "regular go mode" after a short delay.
Nonetheless, thanks to this exchange, I now better understand how to use my Ioniq 5, so thank you for that.

I think we will find that it's way more than 1/3 of a second.

The user select screen on the Ioniq has a 10 count timer, which seems to be 10 seconds. The time to press the button and have the info screen come up feels like 1/10th of the timer, maybe 1/5th. So an honest estimate is 1-2 seconds including the screen wakeup time.

Look, I optimize things down to a tenth of a nanosecond or less for a living, but a 2 second delay in starting an EV is a huge nothingburger to me.

AFAIK we only have confirmation from Jamie that we can exit the car without pushing the button. I would love to know if we can also ignore it for starting the car. If that is true then your baby/pet mode argument is valid and like someone mentioned I will have my son 3D print a different cover or something for the button and go on my merry way.

FWIW I'm in my early 50's and am anti-button

Early 50's and so strongly pro button that if I was given the choice between only a car with no screens or a car with no buttons, I would pick the car with buttons every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

As for not letting this discussion die, with 20 months to go before we get our Scouts, what else are we going to do? I don't take any of this personally and hope none of you do either. I realize I can sound quite worked up but I am not upset about any of this. I love a spirited debate/discussion and enjoy the opportunity to share my experiences (as well as my opinions and biases). I have been arguing with people on the Internet for decades and view it as a bit of a hobby.

Cheers, I too am a fan of XCKD. Especially this one: https://xkcd.com/730/

 

[jeremydunworth]

Every non-manual transmission car I have ever seen requires you to have your foot on the brake before shifting gears.

Creep vs Hold should be a choice. Tesla has removed that choice and only allows Hold. My wife still has Creep in her 2018 Model S and loves it. I like Hold so I don't have to keep my foot on the brake at stoplights.

I agree creep vs hold should be a choice. I really wanted to like hold, but it did not work for me. Fortunately, my Hyundai makes it a choice. A choice I can select with a button on dash to the left side of the steering wheel, I don't even need to muck with some yucky touch screen software interface or guess my way through an annoying series of menu options.

So I think this is the crux of the confusion around this topic. An EV (even a Harvester) has more in common with your phone than your ICE vehicle. An EV "waking up" is nothing like starting the engine in your ICE. It is more like unlocking your phone. You can do that thousands of times per day and are not causing wear and tear on the vehicle.

Ok, I'm going to take the bait on this one. I am using my real name in these posts, you can look me up on IEEExplore or Google Scholar if you want to see what I've been doing for work for the past few decades. I'll just say I know a little bit about cell phones and the problem I am concerned about here is not the power consumption. It is the screen waking up and triggering some other software that starts doing something that annoys me. Especially with AI agents being in vogue currently, I'm confident Scout Motors won't do this, I'm also confident some car company is going to try to sell a luxury vehicle that detects your presence in the car and starts doing things like heating seats or adjusting the seat position, or playing what is thinks is your favorite Mozart sonata, and I would at some point be 100% annoyed by that except I would never consider a car that advertises that level of personalization. It is just not for me. I understand some people would like that, again, not me.

Yes, after some period of time (like 30 minutes but can be longer if the vehicle is hot and it needs to run the pumps to cool down) the car will go to "sleep" where the high voltage battery is disconnected and only minimal systems run. But once you unlock or open a door the vehicle will come out of sleep and be ready for you to drive it (like when you open the cover on your laptop). At that point it doesn't matter how many times you open and close the doors, you are not making the car work any harder than you do when you lock and unlock your phone. Plus if the vehicle is plugged in during this time it is drawing power from the house and not the battery so even if you left all the doors and windows open with the HVAC running while you loaded the vehicle, the battery will not be drained.


Tesla does not have a top-down 360-degree view but they have recently added cross-traffic warnings and auto braking for both vehicles and pedestrians.

Good that Tesla has added cross traffic and auto braking. Between top down 360 view and cross traffic, cross traffic is the more valuable. However I would still rather have both.

Also, since I opined on what I do for a living above, thank you for helping with getting all the auto terminology correct. I obviously haven't learned the common industry terms. Yet.