Paddle Shifters For Adjusting Regen

[Variable430]

Currently have an EQS and have zero love for one pedal driving. The EQS has paddle shifters to adjust the level of brake regen manually and on the fly - effectively it serves as a synthetic down shift and provides a much more interactive driving experience. I believe the Ioniq has this as well. Please strongly consider adopting this technology and it should include the ability to completely disengage regeneration as one of the modes.

 

[Cranky Canuck]

The problem with only having regen on the gas pedal is you either end up limiting how much regen you have, or you have to very carefully feather the gas so your passengers don’t get seasick. Paddles make it easy, so opd folks get what they want, coasters get what they want and everyone in between gets whatever they want, especially when someone else drives who’s may not have a “profile” set.

Yes!! Exactly!

 

[cyure]

Yes!! Exactly!

Okay I test drove a Rivian and totally made my husband car sick. So there is a way to make it coast like a gas car?

 

[R1TVT]

My take-away from this entire discussion is that:

1. The "adjustability" aspect of regen is important.
2. The ability to turn-off or completely disable regen also seems important.

The AMOUNT of regen that can be applied to enhance your stopping power is variable based on implementation by the OEM (paddle or pedal).
Some OEM's implement this differently, and some OEM's allow you to reduce regen, but in some cases you cannot completely disable regen.

Why is this?

These are just theories but there may be some degree of validity to these:

1. The OEM may want to deliver a consistent and simple driving experience. Drivers may benefit by having a very predictable experience while driving and become completely accustomed to the vehicle faster (without too much complexity or variability). This may be tied also to a safety concern for some OEM's, and they may desire to control some of the variability in order to help ensure safer driving experiences (through the delivery of a more predictable and responsive vehicle).

2. The OEM may also want to drive increased efficiency numbers that they can promote to consumers (thus also improving the sustainability aspects of their product or company). If a user can simply disable a feature like regen and never use it, they are essentially wasting potential energy gains and throwing money and resources out the window. Is there a chance a consumer that doesn't use regen is dissatisfied b/c their range is decreased? Are there future disclosures that need to be made by an OEM that choose to allow users to completely disable regen (regarding that vehicles efficiency ratings)? Will we see a new measurement for EV efficiency since MPGe is essentially a meaningless number for real-world driving? Will those changes impact sales & revenue?

All I know now, is that after driving my R1T for 50,000 miles with a typically "moderate" regen setting enabled, is that any ICE vehicle I drive feels extremely inefficient and wasteful... Its actually SHOCKING to apply friction brakes to stop (knowing you could be generating electricity & not burning through rotors, while braking in an EV).

 

[Cranky Canuck]

Okay I test drove a Rivian and totally made my husband car sick. So there is a way to make it coast like a gas car?

Yes, absolutely!

That's the exact point I and others have been trying to make here. Some car makers have given drivers a selection of different modes all the way from coasting like a gas car (ie very little regen) to one pedal driving like a golf cart (ie the Tesla way) and everything in between. Some companies like Nissan use buttons in the centre console to make that type of selection, others bury the options in on-screen menus, and the best implementations I've seen from a user-interface perspective use paddles behind the steering wheel.

Rather than forcing all drivers into one regen mode dictated by the automaker, having these choices allows people to customize the intensity and how the regen is applied to suit their driving preferences. I don't see how giving users choice so they can decide what they like best is bad, I don't understand why this is so controversial.

In my car if you want it to drive like a Tesla where all the regen happens on the accelerator pedal you can. If you want it to drive like a manual transmission where it coasts forever when you lift off the accelerator you can do that too. If you want it to gently slow down like an automatic does when you lift off the accelerator you can also do that! Or, if you want it to coast but also be smart enough to match the deceleration of a car in front of you all the way down to a stop, you can do that as well. (That's the mode I personally prefer - it's called "auto regen".)

Driver profiles make it so whoever is driving the car has the setting they prefer.

 

[Cranky Canuck]

My take-away from this entire discussion is that:

1. The "adjustability" aspect of regen is important.
2. The ability to turn-off or completely disable regen also seems important.

The AMOUNT of regen that can be applied to enhance your stopping power is variable based on implementation by the OEM (paddle or pedal).
Some OEM's implement this differently, and some OEM's allow you to reduce regen, but in some cases you cannot completely disable regen.

Why is this?

These are just theories but there may be some degree of validity to these:

1. The OEM may want to deliver a consistent and simple driving experience. Drivers may benefit by having a very predictable experience while driving and become completely accustomed to the vehicle faster (without too much complexity or variability). This may be tied also to a safety concern for some OEM's, and they may desire to control some of the variability in order to help ensure safer driving experiences (through the delivery of a more predictable and responsive vehicle).

2. The OEM may also want to drive increased efficiency numbers that they can promote to consumers (thus also improving the sustainability aspects of their product or company). If a user can simply disable a feature like regen and never use it, they are essentially wasting potential energy gains and throwing money and resources out the window. Is there a chance a consumer that doesn't use regen is dissatisfied b/c their range is decreased? Are there future disclosures that need to be made by an OEM that choose to allow users to completely disable regen (regarding that vehicles efficiency ratings)? Will we see a new measurement for EV efficiency since MPGe is essentially a meaningless number for real-world driving? Will those changes impact sales & revenue?

All I know now, is that after driving my R1T for 50,000 miles with a typically "moderate" regen setting enabled, is that any ICE vehicle I drive feels extremely inefficient and wasteful... Its actually SHOCKING to apply friction brakes to stop (knowing you could be generating electricity & not burning through rotors, while braking in an EV).

I would say that even in the instances where an OEM allows you to "disable" regen - ie "regen level 0" in my car - regen is still used to slow the car when the brake pedal is pressed. What the different regen settings change is effectively how much "engine drag" you feel when lifting off the accelerator pedal.

Unlike a Tesla where regen only happens on the accelerator pedal while friction brakes are on the brake pedal, more sophisticated companies have regen on both pedals with the accelerator pedal activating regen (or not) as a sort of "engine drag" while the brake pedal primarily applies regen to slow the vehicle but blends it with friction brakes as needed.

 

[cyure]

Yes, absolutely!

That's the exact point I and others have been trying to make here. Some car makers have given drivers a selection of different modes all the way from coasting like a gas car (ie very little regen) to one pedal driving like a golf cart (ie the Tesla way) and everything in between. Some companies like Nissan use buttons in the centre console to make that type of selection, others bury the options in on-screen menus, and the best implementations I've seen from a user-interface perspective use paddles behind the steering wheel.

Rather than forcing all drivers into one regen mode dictated by the automaker, having these choices allows people to customize the intensity and how the regen is applied to suit their driving preferences. I don't see how giving users choice so they can decide what they like best is bad, I don't understand why this is so controversial.

In my car if you want it to drive like a Tesla where all the regen happens on the accelerator pedal you can. If you want it to drive like a manual transmission where it coasts forever when you lift off the accelerator you can do that too. If you want it to gently slow down like an automatic does when you lift off the accelerator you can also do that! Or, if you want it to coast but also be smart enough to match the deceleration of a car in front of you all the way down to a stop, you can do that as well. (That's the mode I personally prefer - it's called "auto regen".)

Driver profiles make it so whoever is driving the car has the setting they prefer.

Thank you, laying it out like that makes sense now. Okay so my Jeep coasts when you take your foot off the gas if you don’t apply the brake. My Supra in sport mode you can feel it downshifting and slowing itself down (I assume that’s what it’s doing) so I could have something like either of those experiences in an EV. That’s great to know.

Like I keep saying the more I learn the more I’m leaning towards the BEV.

 

[Cranky Canuck]

Thank you, laying it out like that makes sense now. Okay so my Jeep coasts when you take your foot off the gas if you don’t apply the brake. My Supra in sport mode you can feel it downshifting and slowing itself down (I assume that’s what it’s doing) so I could have something like either of those experiences in an EV. That’s great to know.

Like I keep saying the more I learn the more I’m leaning towards the BEV.

Yes exactly. My car allows you to mimic how both of those feel.

You can set it to "regen level 0" which feels like a manual transmission (with the clutch in) when you lift off the accelerator so you just coast until you hit the brake (in this scenario the brake would then activate regen to slow you down but it doesn't feel any different than friction brakes to the user), so you could make it feel like how your Jeep drives.

Or you could set it to "regen level 1" or 2, or 3 (whatever level feels best to you) and the car uses a bit of regen so that when you lift off the accelerator pedal it feels more like an automatic downshifting (without the jolts between gears though). So if you want it to feel more like how your Supra feels you could do that too.

That's the beauty of a system like what Hyundai has done, you can make your car behave how you want it to - like what you're already used to - but you aren't forced into any particular mode if you don't want it. It can be as familiar or as electric-car-y as you want it to be.

 

[cyure]

Yes exactly. My car allows you to mimic how both of those feel.

You can set it to "regen level 0" which feels like a manual transmission (with the clutch in) when you lift off the accelerator so you just coast until you hit the brake (in this scenario the brake would then activate regen to slow you down but it doesn't feel any different than friction brakes to the user), so you could make it feel like how your Jeep drives.

Or you could set it to "regen level 1" or 2, or 3 (whatever level feels best to you) and the car uses a bit of regen so that when you lift off the accelerator pedal it feels more like an automatic downshifting (without the jolts between gears though). So if you want it to feel more like how your Supra feels you could do that too.

That's the beauty of a system like what Hyundai has done, you can make your car behave how you want it to - like what you're already used to - but you aren't forced into any particular mode if you don't want it. It can be as familiar or as electric-car-y as you want it to be.

Okay Scout I want all those options. That’s sounds amazing!

Thanks you Cranky for the education. That was super helpful! I was really worried I would be driving around making my passengers car sick while I was learning to drive an electric.

 

[R1TVT]

Okay I test drove a Rivian and totally made my husband car sick. So there is a way to make it coast like a gas car?

See post above ^^^^^^. Not if you take your foot all the way off the accelerator!

But you can reduce the regen setting to "LOW", and you can simply apply less pressure to the accelerator (so you are not enabling regen and not sending power to the motors)

IMPORTANT QUESTIONS: Which drive mode were you in? Which regen setting were you in?

These 2 things will directly impact feel and how the accelerator pedal responds to inputs. There is so much adjustability that can change the ride quality in a Rivian, and you are dealing with a truck that has tremendous amounts of torque and power.

I'm not really surprised (if that was your first drive in a Rivian). Most people that are coming from ICE vehicles (like you are, from a Jeep) will often just take their foot all the way OFF the accelerator to "coast". When you take your foot all the way off the accelerator in a Rivian, you are telling it apply the max amount of regen available (based on the regen setting) and the truck is going to start to stop. How much regen is applied and how long it takes to stop is based on the regen setting. And if you leave your foot on the pedal and "feather" it will take much looooooonger to stop.

The responsiveness is so much different from a Jeep... I drove a jeep for a week last summer and couldn't wait to get back in my R1T. Rivian's pedal sensitivity can also be quite different in a mode like "Sport Mode" for example (I rarely drive in Sport mode). If I were giving an ICE owner a ride in a Rivian for the 1st time, i would not be putting the truck in sport mode and I would not have the regen set to high.

 

[cyure]

See post above ^^^^^^. Not if you take your foot all the way off the accelerator!

But you can reduce the regen setting to "LOW", and you can simply apply less pressure to the accelerator (so you are not enabling regen and not sending power to the motors)

IMPORTANT QUESTIONS: Which drive mode were you in? Which regen setting were you in?

These 2 things will directly impact feel and how the accelerator pedal responds to inputs. There is so much adjustability that can change the ride quality in a Rivian, and you are dealing with a truck that has tremendous amounts of torque and power.

I'm not really surprised (if that was your first drive in a Rivian). Most people that are coming from ICE vehicles (like you are, from a Jeep) will often just take their foot all the way OFF the accelerator to "coast". When you take your foot all the way off the accelerator in a Rivian, you are telling it apply the max amount of regen available (based on the regen setting) and the truck is going to start to stop. How much regen is applied and how long it takes to stop is based on the regen setting. And if you leave your foot on the pedal and "feather" it will take much looooooonger to stop.

The responsiveness is so much different from a Jeep... I drove a jeep for a week last summer and couldn't wait to get back in my R1T. Rivian's pedal sensitivity can also be quite different in a mode like "Sport Mode" for example (I rarely drive in Sport mode). If I were giving an ICE owner a ride in a Rivian for the 1st time, i would not be putting the truck in sport mode and I would not have the regen set to high.

That was my one complaint about the Rivian test drive experience. He literally handed me the keys and said be back in 45 minutes. I literally had no idea how anything worked or what I was doing. Like was looking for a push to start button and had to go grab him. And I picked it up right at the Normal Plant for the test drive. I couldn’t tell you what mode I was in. Nothing.

Scout that’s a lesson learned. It’s great to let people take the vehicles to test drive on their own, but don’t let them leave without some education first.

 

[unpossible]

Okay I test drove a Rivian and totally made my husband car sick. So there is a way to make it coast like a gas car?

In a Rivian or a Tesla: no, there is no way to "make it coast like a gas car".

To be complete/fair --- education and operator-practice with OPD-style driving makes the experience smooth for passengers such that they will get no more sick than they would be in any other car. And/or more use of cruise control and then smoothness is the car's job.

 

[unpossible]

Extending that answer about “is there any way to make a Rivian coast like a gas car”, in a Rivian or a Tesla: no.

In a ROBP-supporting vehicle (the traditional manufacturers generally): yes, you can make them coast like a car via menu settings, changing settings via paddles, or in some case that is just how they work and you can't change it.

In a Scout EV: TBD....this is pretty much the OP point of this thread:

1. requesting Scouts have the capability to control regen based on brake-pedal input (and obviously it needs to feel right which requires additional engineering and hardware)
2. given #1, requesting Scouts enable users to set how regen-control is allocated between the pedals
3. given #1 and #2, requesting Scouts enable changing that setting via paddles

In older Teslas and I think all Rivian's still you can set regen to "low" (or whatever word they use in menus) that will make the pedal function closer to a gas car, but still not the same. Plus you are losing net efficiency when you do that in a Rivian or a Tesla, because unlike ROBP-supporting vehicle Tesla's and Rivian's don't have the ability to add regen back-in based on brake-pedal input and make it feel right. It isn't a software thing or a "no paddle thing" - Tesla's and Rivian's literally don't have the hardware implemented to apply regen based on the brake-pedal input AND moderate the brake-pedal 'feel' at the same time. Telsa and Rivian likely won't ever support the ability to "make it coast like a gas car" - Rivian because they are broke*, and Tesla because they are gambling they will have full self-driving (FSD) before this limitation materially costs them sales (with FSD, nuances of how the pedals work and feel will matter less).

*Unless perhaps Rivian gets this from Scout/VW as part of their arrangement...VW gets software and perhaps more/better US manufacturing and supply-chain experience from Rivian....Rivian gets $$$$$ and perhaps other support from VW.

I personally don't think this - but to be complete - the best and perhaps only reasonably-potentially-good argument for not doing all #1-#2-#3 in the new Scout EVs is cost:....the Tesla-Rivian way is cheaper, and many of their customer's apparently want or-are-okay-with OPD-all-the-time so maybe that extends to Scout buyers and then you might as well leave-out #1-#2-#3 or some portion thereof (working back in #s) to save the cost/complexity.

 

[Cranky Canuck]

Extending that answer about “is there any way to make a Rivian coast like a gas car”, in a Rivian or a Tesla: no.

In a ROBP-supporting vehicle (the traditional manufacturers generally): yes, you can make them coast like a car via menu settings, changing settings via paddles, or in some case that is just how they work and you can't change it.

In a Scout EV: TBD....this is pretty much the OP point of this thread:

1. requesting Scouts have the capability to control regen based on brake-pedal input (and obviously it needs to feel right which requires additional engineering and hardware)
2. given #1, requesting Scouts enable users to set how regen-control is allocated between the pedals
3. given #1 and #2, requesting Scouts enable changing that setting via paddles

In older Teslas and I think all Rivian's still you can set regen to "low" (or whatever word they use in menus) that will make the pedal function closer to a gas car, but still not the same. Plus you are losing net efficiency when you do that in a Rivian or a Tesla, because unlike ROBP-supporting vehicle Tesla's and Rivian's don't have the ability to add regen back-in based on brake-pedal input and make it feel right. It isn't a software thing or a "no paddle thing" - Tesla's and Rivian's literally don't have the hardware implemented to apply regen based on the brake-pedal input AND moderate the brake-pedal 'feel' at the same time. Telsa and Rivian likely won't ever support the ability to "make it coast like a gas car" - Rivian because they are broke*, and Tesla because they are gambling they will have full self-driving (FSD) before this limitation materially costs them sales (with FSD, nuances of how the pedals work and feel will matter less).

*Unless perhaps Rivian gets this from Scout/VW as part of their arrangement...VW gets software and perhaps more/better US manufacturing and supply-chain experience from Rivian....Rivian gets $$$$$ and perhaps other support from VW.

I personally don't think this - but to be complete - the best and perhaps only reasonably-potentially-good argument for not doing all #1-#2-#3 in the new Scout EVs is cost:....the Tesla-Rivian way is cheaper, and many of their customer's apparently want or-are-okay-with OPD-all-the-time so maybe that extends to Scout buyers and then you might as well leave-out #1-#2-#3 or some portion thereof (working back in #s) to save the cost/complexity.

If Hyundai can put selectable regen levels in a Kona then Scout should have no trouble putting it in a vehicle that costs twice as much. I doubt cost would be the driving factor, it's more design/use philosophy than anything else. I hope Scout adopts a more conventional design philossphy than a Tesla/Rivian philosophy as far as regen goes.

 

[bsddrake]

If Hyundai can put selectable regen levels in a Kona then Scout should have no trouble putting it in a vehicle that costs twice as much. I doubt cost would be the driving factor, it's more design/use philosophy than anything else. I hope Scout adopts a more conventional design philossphy than a Tesla/Rivian philosophy as far as regen goes.

For me personally, not having the ability to disable one pedal driving would be one of the few things that would (possibly) stop me from buying a scout. I just re-affirmed how little I like it on my last drive because of this thread. It does remind me of driving an RX-7 with a broken clutch master cylinder. Good times.

 

[dreamweaver]

If Hyundai can put selectable regen levels in a Kona then Scout should have no trouble putting it in a vehicle that costs twice as much. I doubt cost would be the driving factor, it's more design/use philosophy than anything else. I hope Scout adopts a more conventional design philossphy than a Tesla/Rivian philosophy as far as regen goes.

Mic drop!

 

[tuvok]

Paddleshifter for regen level adjustment is a great idea! But we also need a way to toggle regen breaking on and off easily and conveniently. Neither of these options should be buried in the screen.

 

[cyure]

Paddleshifter for regen level adjustment is a great idea! But we also need a way to toggle regen breaking on and off easily and conveniently. Neither of these options should be buried in the screen.

Welcome to the community.

 

[dreamweaver]

Paddleshifter for regen level adjustment is a great idea! But we also need a way to toggle regen breaking on and off easily and conveniently. Neither of these options should be buried in the screen.

I am pretty sure a large majority, like me would like on/off and everything in between.

 

[KevinAtsma]

I disagree. I don't want to clutter up the IP with paddle shifters. This is a truck (or SUV), not a sports car. If they are going to offer multiple regent levels that should be a setting in a menu, most people will find what they like and leave it on that setting.
I for one love one pedal driving. It takes a minute to get use to it, but then once you get it, it is a far more intuitive way to drive.

I disagree. It poses as an advantage for coming down hills and it's great. I do a lot off roading. My MIT's Outlander PHEV has 5 settings for Regen sensitivity and it's helpful. I wish my off roader had it

 

[KevinAtsma]

Sorry I already posted this but I didn't know there was a thread going. Still new to forums.

Regenerative Brake Shifter Paddles and one peddle driving that can be turned to zero by the paddles (so both!).

- I understand this has been discussed but I own a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV and it is the only vehicle I know that has long wide paddles behind the steering wheel to shift your regenerative braking sensitivity from B0 to B5 for your one pedal driving. You can control your coast at flick of your fingers while turning (because the paddles are wide) and precede down hills to control your speed better. It's great! I rarely have to press my brake peddle when coasting down big hills (which also does Regen) since I can adjust how much resistance there is to the regenerative braking and gain KM/Miles. I can also turn it off to coast on the Hwy and so my go/gas pedal doesn't slow me down on release. This is the best of all worlds in my opinion and will satisfy more People who are in different camps on the subject.

We should add this to the voting option:
Paddle regen that controls one peddle Regen so you can control it's resistance from total off, as in "0" to different levels of sensitivity to help give control to decelerating and any users who don't want Regen but just want it in the brakes.