How will the scouts handle the extreme cold?

[R1TVT]

All well and good, for those whose lives are so scheduled. But how important or essential is it? What about the volunteer firemen and rescue folks of our rural areas. The get the call, grab keys, and run. Their ICE can be moving within ten seconds of the door closing. What is the reality of EV setups?

The reality for EV set-ups is that they will always be faster to "get up and go" compared to ICE, since there is no mechanical "start" process, per se. You put the EV in DRIVE and blast off - whether it is cold or not cold, that doesn't matter in terms of "elapsed time".

Since this thread started with the question about Scouts in "extreme cold", I added the bit about pre-conditioning, because preconditioning can make the cabin more comfortable, warm the battery pack and most importantly, help increase EV efficiency in extreme cold. The part about scheduling was really just to point out that you can easily do this remotely, or set it and forget it. For example, if you wake up everyday and commute, you may want to be on a preconditioning schedule in colder months up north (for convenience and for efficiency in winter). Hope that makes sense.

 

[Logan]

So, saw this article today.

Basically, the Equinox has an EPA range of 306 miles. They drove at 75mph on a day when it was -6f, and they got 150 miles out of the first 90% of the battery, with an estimated ~19miles remaining, and an efficiency of ~1.7 miles per KWh.

https://insideevs.com/news/749106/chevrolet-equinox-ev-awd-winter-range-test-owner-video/

Personally, "really cold weather" for my area, means ~20f. So I'm not really super worried about it, as most of the winter is in the ~30-45f range. I'm not trying to be "doom and gloom". But info like the above helps me understand why people are worried about how the scout will handle cold temperatures.

 

[R1TVT]

So, saw this article today.

Basically, the Equinox has an EPA range of 306 miles. They drove at 75mph on a day when it was -6f, and they got 150 miles out of the first 90% of the battery, with an estimated ~19miles remaining, and an efficiency of ~1.7 miles per KWh.

https://insideevs.com/news/749106/chevrolet-equinox-ev-awd-winter-range-test-owner-video/

Personally, "really cold weather" for my area, means ~20f. So I'm not really super worried about it, as most of the winter is in the ~30-45f range. I'm not trying to be "doom and gloom". But info like the above helps me understand why people are worried about how the scout will handle cold temperatures.

Sub-freezing cold weather, road conditions, head-wind and elevation gain will cut your efficiency for sure. Climbing into the mountains I can see my averages drop, so advanced planning can be needed in these conditions to ensure you have enough juice to get back to a charger (if going into the backcountry for example). The funny thing is though, the opposite is true too... I can watch my averages climb drastically on the return trip with a tailwind, elevation drop and regen kicking in.

I wouldn't get too bogged down on comparisons to the Equinox though, its the lowest-end EV SUV (at least in terms of pricing) that Chevy has on the market, and I would say that it is an awkward EV implementation, and will be very different than the Scout battery, BMS and architecture. When you dig in to the voltage, , battery chemistry and what is considered "top-end" speed in a vehicle like that, you have already "run out of room" at 75mph. Interestingly, that is the exact number that Inside EV's notated in this article about the Equinox: https://insideevs.com/news/722934/chevy-equinox-ev-ultium-platform/

The compromise was clearly made for a lower range of operating speeds in the Equinox EV. Its front drive unit has an 11.59:1 ratio as compared to the RWD Lyriq/Blazer’s 11.63:1 (almost identical). If the motor KV rating is similar—which I unfortunately can only assume—the top-end performance will suffer.

In practice, this isn’t much of an assumption. Driving the FWD Equinox EV, we noticed that above 75 mph it gets seriously short on power. This phenomenon is a combination of all of these factors.

On the flip side of this, we can look at the AWD Cadillac Lyriq. Its front and rear drive units have ratios of 9.87:1 and 10.49:1, respectively. The Lyriq’s pack has a higher voltage and two drive units, so the current handling capability of the drivetrain is increased. This means more torque, higher potential speed, and greater power.

 

[Logan]

Sub-freezing cold weather, road conditions, head-wind and elevation gain will cut your efficiency for sure. Climbing into the mountains I can see my averages drop, so advanced planning can be needed in these conditions to ensure you have enough juice to get back to a charger (if going into the backcountry for example). The funny thing is though, the opposite is true too... I can watch my averages climb drastically on the return trip with a tailwind, elevation drop and regen kicking in.

I wouldn't get too bogged down on comparisons to the Equinox though, its the lowest-end EV SUV (at least in terms of pricing) that Chevy has on the market, and I would say that it is an awkward EV implementation, and will be very different than the Scout battery, BMS and architecture. When you dig in to the voltage, , battery chemistry and what is considered "top-end" speed in a vehicle like that, you have already "run out of room" at 75mph. Interestingly, that is the exact number that Inside EV's notated in this article about the Equinox: https://insideevs.com/news/722934/chevy-equinox-ev-ultium-platform/

The compromise was clearly made for a lower range of operating speeds in the Equinox EV. Its front drive unit has an 11.59:1 ratio as compared to the RWD Lyriq/Blazer’s 11.63:1 (almost identical). If the motor KV rating is similar—which I unfortunately can only assume—the top-end performance will suffer.

In practice, this isn’t much of an assumption. Driving the FWD Equinox EV, we noticed that above 75 mph it gets seriously short on power. This phenomenon is a combination of all of these factors.

On the flip side of this, we can look at the AWD Cadillac Lyriq. Its front and rear drive units have ratios of 9.87:1 and 10.49:1, respectively. The Lyriq’s pack has a higher voltage and two drive units, so the current handling capability of the drivetrain is increased. This means more torque, higher potential speed, and greater power.

Oh, absolutely agree on all of it. More was showing "uh, its definitely a justifiable worry" for the general public, and that I understood why it was a topic.

Interesting about the final drive ratio differences, as that part I hadn't dug into that level for the Equinox quite yet. And one I hadn't thought about as a reason to use a dual motor (or generally more powerful EV). That is a super short final drive ratio for an EV, and I could see that being an issue at higher speeds. Good info there. Funny enough, the final drive ratio and different efficient operating speeds is a topic I've brought up before. Some Teslas (S/X) actually use different final drive ratios on the front and rear axles, with a different motor being prioritized for different speeds of travel.

I've been shouted down for this before, but I still that vehicles like the Scout might actually benefit from a 2 speed transmission (functioning sort of like a transfer case). One for lower speeds/trails/around town (because big offroad moves draw lots of amperage... the Rivian R1S that did 12 miles of the rubicon, used something like 85% SOC for that distance), and another for highway speeds (like what you're saying here). I doubt we'll see it, but, I still think its a potentially good idea.

* FWIW, Mercedes is working on 2 speed transmissions for their next gen platform, Jeep is also working on 2 speed EV transmissions for their future EV Wrangler.

 

[dleepnw]

while i can appreciate your specific use case of extreme cold, most owners will not be in that situation so i dont expect to see anything extraordinary for cold weather extremes. it also wouldn't be cost effective for them to do so. if they can add in heated wipers and a way to auto clean/wipe/melt the headlights of snow i think that will cover most situations.

 

[J Alynn]

while i can appreciate your specific use case of extreme cold, most owners will not be in that situation so i dont expect to see anything extraordinary for cold weather extremes. it also wouldn't be cost effective for them to do so. if they can add in heated wipers and a way to auto clean/wipe/melt the headlights of snow i think that will cover most situations.

I would add too at least in central PA when snow and extreme cold hit, people reduce their traveling considerably. Granted if it’s -20 and your commute is 100 miles round trip you are probably screwed ?. But those temperatures are typically the top row of states and Canada so to agree-this won’t impact that large of a percentage unless the south just doesn’t purchase the Scouts

 

[TaconicBear]

The reality for EV set-ups is that they will always be faster to "get up and go" compared to ICE, since there is no mechanical "start" process, per se. You put the EV in DRIVE and blast off - whether it is cold or not cold, that doesn't matter in terms of "elapsed time".

Since this thread started with the question about Scouts in "extreme cold", I added the bit about pre-conditioning, because preconditioning can make the cabin more comfortable, warm the battery pack and most importantly, help increase EV efficiency in extreme cold. The part about scheduling was really just to point out that you can easily do this remotely, or set it and forget it. For example, if you wake up everyday and commute, you may want to be on a preconditioning schedule in colder months up north (for convenience and for efficiency in winter). Hope that makes sense.

Yes, I understood your point about the luxury of warming up for those whose life is so organized that they can depend on their cell phones, remote apps, and programming skills to get the most out of their 4WD computers. And yes, I was drifting off topic but not entirely, as I expect that cold will have some bearing on how fast one can actually be in motion. (I'm not including scraping the frost off the windshield, mirrors, radar, and cameras, although that's a consideration too.) My essential point comes from the observation from the current/modern ICE vehicles I get to drive that the computer spends a lot of time checking all sorts of things and warning/informing me about irrelevant stuff before the vehicle is truly ready to move out. And I'm quite sure that it concurrently polls many necessary operational systems that I can only imagine. What I am truly interested in is whether the EV vehicles will be any faster. There truly are costs to all the benefits we have gained by computerizing ALL current vehicles, and I'm thinking a major one is true startup time.
I'm really thinking about the volunteer fireman who lives near me, who relies on his pickup to start instantly and get him to the firehouse (2 miles away) as fast as possible. Seconds count because he is the one who drives the fire truck.

 

[J Alynn]

I will say with my hybrid accord it starts up immediately and is ready to go. Sometimes CarPlay takes a minute but otherwise mine boots up very quickly. May just be the operating system on some manufacturers vs others ????‍

 

[LastDayScout]

It takes me longer to get my seat belt on that it takes for the iX to be ready to move.

 

[TaconicBear]

I will say with my hybrid accord it starts up immediately and is ready to go. Sometimes CarPlay takes a minute but otherwise mine boots up very quickly. May just be the operating system on some manufacturers vs others ????‍

Yes, my '17 Rav4 Hybrid is similar. Android Auto, too, takes its sweet time and misses the connection about 1/3 times. My '23 Tundra however …. Not all delays are strictly internal: Yesterday it complained about the 10lb sack of potatoes I put on the rear seat. It was move it or seat-belt it. I know the dealer turned off the rear seat child check (I sat with him when took me through the whole list of options), but I guess one of the OTA updates reset it. Sure I could have driven with it beeping and flashing at me, but at the cost of distraction and annoyance to the point of making me a less safe driver. In short the hop out - open door - move potatoes - close door - hop back in - wait for seat to readjust sequence is a 15+second delay in ready-to-roll time.

 

[R1TVT]

I'm really thinking about the volunteer fireman who lives near me, who relies on his pickup to start instantly and get him to the firehouse (2 miles away) as fast as possible. Seconds count because he is the one who drives the fire truck.

Hypothetically, and even if a shiny new Scout EV had a seemingly slow boot-up time (which isn't a thing based on current EV models on the market today) you would still spin-up and tear out faster than any ICE truck. That isn't an exaggeration - its just the reality with instant torque and insanely fast CPU speeds with far better architecture & HW. Not to mention going 0-60 in 3-4 seconds.

There is a big opportunity here for Scout.

EV's are the future for fleets and first responders... They are the perfect solution for short-distance emergency response, just as they are for last mile delivery in logistics (not to mention plugging in overnight, so always having power, never needing to get gas, lower maintenance and better performance). As current fleets hit EOL, and we see costs start to come down, we are going to be seeing more deployments like these:

 

[Michael1972]

Generally speaking, most if not all modern EV's have very robust thermal management, when the extreme cold and heat is happening the heat pump (much more efficient than resistive heat) and/or fans will come on to keep the coolant for the battery from getting too hot or cold. I'm in Wyoming and last winter had zero problems, only reduced range at highway speeds, which can be minimalized with different methods. Traveling to southern Colorado in the heat of summer at 100+ degrees also with no issues, less range reduction since regular a/c is more efficient than heat on a heat pump.
In a recent trip between Cheyenne and Green River on I80 we were planning on topping off for a few minutes in Rawlins just for a little insurance on range. Ended up stuck in traffic for a few hours with stop and go traffic before the stop while the temps were in 40's, had almost no effect on range.

I talked to an F150 ford lightning owner and said he noticed loss in cold weather. But we are in Cali not to extreme which surprised me when he said it so I hope they do something like a heat bump to preserve range. But I put deposit on harvester too.

 

[LastDayScout]

Hypothetically, and even if a shiny new Scout EV had a seemingly slow boot-up time (which isn't a thing based on current EV models on the market today) you would still spin-up and tear out faster than any ICE truck. That isn't an exaggeration - its just the reality with instant torque and insanely fast CPU speeds with far better architecture & HW. Not to mention going 0-60 in 3-4 seconds.

There is a big opportunity here for Scout.

EV's are the future for fleets and first responders... They are the perfect solution for short-distance emergency response, just as they are for last mile delivery in logistics (not to mention plugging in overnight, so always having power, never needing to get gas, lower maintenance and better performance). As current fleets hit EOL, and we see costs start to come down, we are going to be seeing more deployments like these:

View attachment 4972

Those sure would be cool as Terras!

 

[R1TVT]

Those sure would be cool as Terras!

Exactly, and you would have tremendous storage options compared to an ICE p/u

 

[oldgeeksguide]

Yes, my '17 Rav4 Hybrid is similar. Android Auto, too, takes its sweet time and misses the connection about 1/3 times. My '23 Tundra however …. Not all delays are strictly internal: Yesterday it complained about the 10lb sack of potatoes I put on the rear seat. It was move it or seat-belt it. I know the dealer turned off the rear seat child check (I sat with him when took me through the whole list of options), but I guess one of the OTA updates reset it. Sure I could have driven with it beeping and flashing at me, but at the cost of distraction and annoyance to the point of making me a less safe driver. In short the hop out - open door - move potatoes - close door - hop back in - wait for seat to readjust sequence is a 15+second delay in ready-to-roll time.

My rav4 is quick, but not quick enough. My typical move is put on seatbelt, hit the power button and put it in gear, but the second it takes from powering on to being “ready” is too long so it complains and have to put it back in park, then hit the button again, then it will allow me to put it in gear. My old Prius didn’t have that delay and habits are hard to change.

 

[Derek]

Yes, I understood your point about the luxury of warming up for those whose life is so organized that they can depend on their cell phones, remote apps, and programming skills to get the most out of their 4WD computers. And yes, I was drifting off topic but not entirely, as I expect that cold will have some bearing on how fast one can actually be in motion. (I'm not including scraping the frost off the windshield, mirrors, radar, and cameras, although that's a consideration too.) My essential point comes from the observation from the current/modern ICE vehicles I get to drive that the computer spends a lot of time checking all sorts of things and warning/informing me about irrelevant stuff before the vehicle is truly ready to move out. And I'm quite sure that it concurrently polls many necessary operational systems that I can only imagine. What I am truly interested in is whether the EV vehicles will be any faster. There truly are costs to all the benefits we have gained by computerizing ALL current vehicles, and I'm thinking a major one is true startup time.
I'm really thinking about the volunteer fireman who lives near me, who relies on his pickup to start instantly and get him to the firehouse (2 miles away) as fast as possible. Seconds count because he is the one who drives the fire truck.

You get the call

Tap the app on your phone that you're leaving

Pull on your clothes and shoes

run down to the garage and slap the garage door opener as you go by

yank the plug out of the fender, hop in and put it in reverse

I bet it takes you 3 minutes to make it from your bed to the car anyway. even in a hustle, coming out of a sleep, I'm going to still have to do pants, shirt, socks, shoes, jacket.

hitting the "precondition" button that is on the phone I'm holding in my hand when I got that 3am call adds 5 seconds and gives the car a few minutes to start getting ready.

Ultimately, it's not needed at all

get the call
get dressed
run down to the garage and go

You'll be fine, same as an ICE only car.

______________________

I will agree that the slow computers in cars absolutely drives me bonkers. It's also why I won't run an automatic in the old scouts. you can spin the starter while it's in reverse and she'll catch as you're back about 3 feet from where you started and start moving if you're in a real darn hurry.

 

[RyanR]

I have owned multiple Teslas and one of the reasons I got rid of them is the power depletion caused by cold weather. I would love to see a “freezing temperature “ mode that would auto start the generator if the battery drops below xx% while I was snowboarding.

 

[TaconicBear]

Sounds reasonable on first reading. I assume that the Harvester generator would be integrated into the self-preservation mode that maintains the battery's climate control system, so this would be the next step above maintenance to charging. I wonder if in instances of severe cold it might be better to have the recharging activated based on your anticipated time of use. In truly Arctic conditions I'd worry about the generator's efforts just going to waste in multiple cycles of regen and wasting. Perhaps it would be better to start it remotely (an hour?) before you expect to use it?
Maybe hopefully battery technology will advance quickly enough that this idea becomes moot.

 

[dreamweaver]

Sounds reasonable on first reading. I assume that the Harvester generator would be integrated into the self-preservation mode that maintains the battery's climate control system, so this would be the next step above maintenance to charging. I wonder if in instances of severe cold it might be better to have the recharging activated based on your anticipated time of use. In truly Arctic conditions I'd worry about the generator's efforts just going to waste in multiple cycles of regen and wasting. Perhaps it would be better to start it remotely (an hour?) before you expect to use it?
Maybe hopefully battery technology will advance quickly enough that this idea becomes moot.

I get the idea behind this, but I’ve got a few concerns about safety. For instance, what if your Harvester is parked in an attached, unheated garage? Would you want your gasoline-powered generator to keep the battery warm? I doubt it. Most cars these days have a keyfob that you can use from your couch to start the vehicle, but that doesn’t make it any safer. Food for thought.

 

[TaconicBear]

I get the idea behind this, but I’ve got a few concerns about safety. For instance, what if your Harvester is parked in an attached, unheated garage? Would you want your gasoline-powered generator to keep the battery warm? I doubt it. Most cars these days have a keyfob that you can use from your couch to start the vehicle, but that doesn’t make it any safer. Food for thought.

Point taken, but the original post was about snow boarding, so my thoughts related to that. OTOH, your unheated garage is typically less than air tight. And it's my understanding that present day petrol engines burn so cleanly that CO isn't much of a concern any more. OTOH they can deplete the O2 in airtight spaces, but in your unheated garage it's likely to drain out the cracks near floor level. Clearly there would need to be overrides and sensors to fit a variety of situations. Around here my electrician friends tell me they'll not install chargers inside garages and are reluctant to place them even close to a dwelling. There is a lot of fear about those batteries being the equivalent of fire-starters in a grille -- x1000, so I expect mine shall be housed with a blue sky roof.