Don't let the Scout become a status symbol; why $60k misses the point of the Revival

[tomgillotti]

Tom, with respect, you speak on this like I hear many people who have no idea what the industry is like speak on this subject. I didn’t read the whole thing because there is way too much to jump in an unpack 4 pages in so I’ll say this.

I want a cheaper scout, but not at the expensive of a minimum standard of quality. I agree that purchasing power has been eroded terribly. That is due to poor government decisions and greed. There are many other things that have been said that I agree with, but the reality is the company has to operate in the current market and be profitable. So all that other crap that’s happened doesn’t matter.

I am a suspension design engineer for an OEM and deal with designing and sourcing castings, stamping, bushings, electrical components and all sorts of other stuff. You said the tariff doesn’t impact Scout because it’s being made in the US. That’s just flat out wrong. Tariffs aren’t just on the final vehicle, they are on the materials to make the vehicle, the parts made from the raw material, and more. Because of tariffs, companies are either paying that additional cost in buying the part overseas or they are paying the cost to have it done in the USA. Most of the time it’s honestly cheaper to buy outside and pay the tariff than it is to make in the US. US labor is just that expensive. We did a study and found making a vehicle in Mexico and paying a 25% tariff was cheaper than making in the US.

Which brings me to your other point, comparison to a Chinese vehicle. If you take into account tariff impact, labor cost, and all the other impacts of building in china, that Xiaomi built in the US with parts sourced like Scout has to source them would likely be 70-100k. China is cheaper than Mexico in nearly every way so at minimum add 25% to the cost of a xiaomi to get USA built price and that’s very underestimated!

When I have recently quoted some castings I’ve found a 25-50% higher piece part cost for US parts vs China. I’ve also found at least a 5x higher tooling cost. So for one part it was ~10k for tooling for the Chinese supplier and 50k+ for the USA supplier.

There is so much that goes into part sourcing that people just don’t understand. Raw material cost increased which increases the part cost not also the cost of the tooling to make the parts. The parts get machined and that labor increases cost. The parts often get shipped multiple places which has a higher cost now and then the final part sometimes gets a tariff on top of the tariff already applied to the raw material. It stacks.

I agree with your desire for lower cost vehicle. Many people want them though by and large people buy the top trims. But how we do that is not by boycotting or pressuring a single company, but changing the environment in which they work. Voting for policies that help the working class, eliminating these ridiculous tariffs which have proven time and time again to harm the USA, and dealing in the wealthy elite for the benefit of the country as a whole instead of the top .1%.

That’s my two cents based on my experience in the industry.

I genuinely appreciate this response. Having a suspension design engineer in the conversation is exactly what this thread needs—someone who sees the receipts. I’m not going to argue with you on the cost of tooling or castings because you live that reality every day, and I respect that expertise. However, I think you misunderstood a few of my points, and I want to clarify them because I think we actually agree on more than it seems.

To be clear, I never claimed that tariffs don't impact Scout. I know that "tariff stacking" on raw materials is a real pain point. My argument was simply that building in South Carolina helps them mitigate the worst of it (like the Chicken Tax), and that VW Group—as the second-largest automaker on earth—should have more leverage to navigate that supply chain pain than almost anyone else. If they can't figure out how to source materials efficiently enough to build a truck under $60k, then the entire US industry is in deeper trouble than we thought.

That said, I have to challenge the idea that a US-built version of a $42k Chinese vehicle would automatically cost $70k-$100k due to labor and tariffs. That is a terrifying statistic, but we have a real-world counter-example right here at home: Tesla. The Model 3 and Model Y are built in the US, use US labor, and face the same raw material tariffs, yet they sell profitably in the $40k–$45k range. If Tesla can build a high-tech, US-made EV for $45k, why are we accepting that Scout (backed by VW's empire) must start at $60k? It proves that the "US Manufacturing Penalty" isn't insurmountable—it just requires relentless efficiency.

Regarding your point on tooling costs being 5x higher in the US ($50k vs $10k), I believe you. But this actually reinforces my argument about volume. If you have expensive tooling, you need to amortize that cost over as many units as possible. If you price the truck at $60k, you limit your volume, which means each truck carries a heavier chunk of that tooling cost. If you price for the masses ($45k), you dilute that tooling cost over 200,000 units. High pricing exacerbates the tooling cost problem; high volume solves it.

Finally, while I agree that we should vote for better policies, we can’t wait 4-8 years for Congress to fix the tariff code. Scout launches in 2027, and they need a business plan that works despite the dysfunction in Washington. Blaming the environment is valid, but overcoming the environment is what great companies do. I’m not asking for a cheaper Scout at the expense of quality; I’m just asking Scout to look at the US-built competition that is already hitting that $45k price point and ask, "If they can do it, why can't we?"

 

[tomgillotti]

I think Scout has read the room. I also think blaming the car manufacturer is incorrect just as blaming home builders. Businesses all deserve to be successful and it doesn’t start at the top but rather from the bottom. Lumber prices spike-tariffs, whatever, so the commodity price goes up. Then there is back and forth negotiating by the builders. There is over 6,000 components to an average house so if/when every supplier raises their prices the builder only absorbs so much. Once prices go up they rarely come down-that is historic trend. Surely the auto industry suffers the same process. And steel is all over the price. So now the vehicle manufacturer is at the mercy of every supplier while they buffer and hedge their pricing. Scout is looking to lock costs and materials now and won’t really need them for a year. A month or so ago my steel supplier wouldn’t hold their quote more than 48 hours because their wholesaler was doing same to them. Imagine what is happening with all these parts and pieces as vendors are holding their prices a year out. Of course things are inflated but I think you are looking to take the head of the messenger rather than the sender.
I’m also now believing you just like debating and will argue every point offered just to be right. Ultimately sparring partners like me are simply blocking you as I’d rather interact with the members on this forum and learn new info over reacting to a member who has chosen to challenge every single person who offers their opinion. I enjoy a good debate but this has just become repetitive with no divergence in sight.

Healthy debate is good, and I respectfully disagree with your position. If you'd prefer not to be a part of this, you are welcome to no longer click on this particular thread.

 

[strider]

I appreciate the detailed response and the chart. You’ve laid out the "Hard Money" argument perfectly, and strictly in terms of currency devaluation, your math on gold is correct.

But here is why that argument fails in the real world: *We don't buy cars with gold. We buy them with wages.* Unless your employer has been adjusting your salary based on the spot price of gold since 2019, your purchasing power has effectively collapsed while car prices have skyrocketed.

It's not just cars. Prices for everything have skyrocketed. It's called inflation.

2. The "Slave Labor" Distraction

On the China point: I am not defending their human rights record or labor practices. Those are serious issues. But it is dangerous and lazy to dismiss their $20,000 cost advantage entirely as "slave labor and pollution."

• Automation: The Xiaomi factory is over 90% automated. Robots don't get paid wages, whether they are in Beijing or South Carolina.

• Supply Chain: They control the battery minerals and processing. That is a strategic advantage, not just a labor one.

• If we dismiss their $42k EVs as just "cheating," we blind ourselves to the fact that they have vertically integrated better than we have. Scout needs to match that efficiency (via VW Group scale), not just complain about it.

The largest cost in an EV is the battery pack. China can make cheap batteries because they literally dump all of the toxic waste into the river. Scout can't do that so their prices will be higher.

Last thing I will say about China is that they literally stole every piece of technology in the cars they make. It's really easy to make a cheap car if all of your R&D is free......

If we automate everything (either through robots or AI) and put everyone out of work, what will that do to wages? How will people be able to buy the products? You want to have your cake and eat it too.

3. The "Tesla Path" is a Trap

You mentioned Scout has to follow the Tesla path (High Price -> Low Price).

• Tesla (2012): Launched into a vacuum. They had zero competition, so they could charge an "Early Adopter Tax."

• Scout (2027): Launches into a shark tank. Rivian, Ford, and Chevy will already be fighting for the $45k space.

• If Scout tries to charge a "2012 Tesla Premium" in a "2027 Commoditized Market," the market won't care about their debt burden. Consumers don't pay extra just to help a company pay off its R&D loans; they pay for value.


The Bottom Line

I’m not asking for magic. I’m asking Scout to read the room. You can blame Congress, the Fed, or the gold standard all you want. But if the average American guy—the guy the Scout brand was built for—can’t afford the truck because his wages didn't go up 7% a year, he isn't going to buy it. And Scout needs him to buy it.

As someone that bought his first Tesla in 2010, I can tell you that the early adopters ARE willing to pay extra to help the company succeed. Tesla was very straightforward about this when I bought my Roadster. I knew I was helping to fund the development of the factory and future vehicles.

In the end you are asking for magic. You act is if there is some grand conspiracy to increase prices beyond the rate of inflation. If that were true then those higher prices would show up as increased profit margins by the automakers and to my knowledge that isn't happening. So where is the money going? Increased costs.

What you are describing is a systemic issue with the costs of all things today and it is directly the fault of Congress dumping an extra $2 Trillion dollars into the economy every year. When you have more dollars chasing the same goods and services, prices will go up. This is freshman-level economics here. Yet no one wants to have a serious conversation about living within our means as a country. Everyone wants the other person's sugar cut but not theirs.

We can absolutely have a discussion about wages and why they haven't kept up but that is a separate discussion from changes that we're seeing in price level.

People need to understand that we had a regime change in 2020. From 1980-2020 we had disinflation and falling interest rates. Those days are over. We are now in an era of higher inflation and rising interest rates. I was a child in the 70's so this is my first direct experience with inflation but I have done a lot of reading. Everyone needs to know that we are not going back to 2019. We should expect 40 years of higher inflation and rising interest rates.

Here is a 10-year Treasury chart. 2020-2060 will be a mirror of 1980-202. Plan accordingly.

 

[strider]

That said, I have to challenge the idea that a US-built version of a $42k Chinese vehicle would automatically cost $70k-$100k due to labor and tariffs. That is a terrifying statistic, but we have a real-world counter-example right here at home: Tesla. The Model 3 and Model Y are built in the US, use US labor, and face the same raw material tariffs, yet they sell profitably in the $40k–$45k range. If Tesla can build a high-tech, US-made EV for $45k, why are we accepting that Scout (backed by VW's empire) must start at $60k? It proves that the "US Manufacturing Penalty" isn't insurmountable—it just requires relentless efficiency.

Ok, you are fully into fantasyland now. I'm getting the feeling that you have a lack of understanding of how the world works. What is it that you do for a living?

It took Tesla 15 YEARS to be able to make a $45k EV. Why so long? They had to pay for the tooling, the robots, the factories, the R&D, and on and on. So of course the marginal cost for each car gets lower as you amortize those costs over more vehicles. That applies whether you're manufacturing donuts or cars.

 

[bb00799]

View attachment 11966

Super excited to hit my 30s in 2027

 

[Scoutsie]

First off, I want to say I genuinely empathize with the personal side of your post. I mentioned earlier that I’ve been through the wringer of family court myself. I know exactly what it feels like to have your financial future drained by lawyers and life circumstances. It’s brutal, and I’m sorry you went through that.

However, I have to respectfully disagree with the philosophy of "It is what it is."

1. Transportation is not a "Luxury"

You mentioned that these vehicles are "luxuries," not necessities. In a country with almost no mass transit (as previously mentioned, I've lived outside of the US as well, for context) infrastructure outside of a few mega-cities, a reliable, capable vehicle is absolutely a necessity for maintaining a job and raising a family.

My entire argument is that the Scout (historically) was the vehicle for the person who needed a tool, not a toy. By accepting that a standard SUV is now a "Luxury Item" reserved for the wealthy, we are effectively saying that the working class no longer deserves access to quality tools. I refuse to accept that premise.


2. Why I won't "Give it a rest"

You called me "pertinacious" (stubborn). I’ll accept that label. But look at history. Every consumer win in the last 20 years—from the right to repair, to better warranties, to the removal of "subscription" heated seats—happened because people were stubborn. They didn't ask once, get a corporate "No," and say "Answer received." They kept pushing until the math changed for the manufacturer.

Here’s the thing that you don’t seem to be getting: they haven’t said no. They said “not now.” You’re not reading the room right.

Seriously, man. I am asking you again to give this a rest. No hearts and minds are being won here.

 

[DJG]

I hear a lot of what you’re saying. Car prices have gotten insane. I think some of that comes from inflation, and some of it comes from higher expectations from the consumer. I understand why you want what you want.

That said, when I go to configure mine, I want it to be nice. I want it to have a long range and be able to handle its own off road. I want it to be durable enough that I don’t have to baby it. I also want the heated leather seats. I want it to be nice enough that my wife and daughters actually want to ride in it. I don’t care so much about self driving or advanced tech, but I also wouldn’t mind having it.

If I read through this board, there are a lot of people at both ends of the spectrum. Some want a base model. Some want fully loaded. I think there is also a lot of overlap in what we all want. I hope the options are such that we can all build the truck we want.

Specifically to the price suggestion, $45k prices this along the lines of a not well equipped Ford Ranger or Toyota Tacoma, and I won’t buy a Scout if it’s not nicer than a Ranger or Tacoma. I think this will need to have some cool factor, and I’m not sure they can build that truck for $45k.

 

[Warbirds]

The Scout will be a bargain at $60k. I’m in until the price tag is north of $100K.

 

[DJG]

The Scout will be a bargain at $60k. I’m in until the price tag is north of $100K.

I am not sure my budget goes up to $100k, but I agree that what we are seeing is a bargain at $60k. I am assuming we are seeing a fully loaded model that will cost more than $60k. I am assuming it will be more like $70-80k when we actually include a few options.

 

[cyure]

I am not sure my budget goes up to $100k, but I agree that what we are seeing is a bargain at $60k. I am assuming we are seeing a fully loaded model that will cost more than $60k. I am assuming it will be more like $70-80k when we actually include a few options.

You are thinking the same way I am. That $60 base means $10 or more in options that I want to add.

When I went and saw the Traveler yesterday someone asked one of the SM team members about price.

They asked if it started at $100 he informed them no it starts at $60. He also did say that sure if someone adds everything under the sun to it you could get it that high and that they are sure that people will add lots of aftermarket stuff just like they do to Wranglers and Broncos.

 

[maynard]

I am not sure my budget goes up to $100k, but I agree that what we are seeing is a bargain at $60k. I am assuming we are seeing a fully loaded model that will cost more than $60k. I am assuming it will be more like $70-80k when we actually include a few options.

Hopefully not more than 70k…

 

[J Alynn]

You are thinking the same way I am. That $60 base means $10 or more in options that I want to add.

When I went and saw the Traveler yesterday someone asked one of the SM team members about price.

They asked if it started at $100 he informed them no it starts at $60. He also did say that sure if someone adds everything under the sun to it you could get it that high and that they are sure that people will add lots of aftermarket stuff just like they do to Wranglers and Broncos.

I think a fairly decked out model will be $80-85- be it as it may. I think if you lux it out and do the full off-road fit out you will be at $100K pretty easily.

 

[Chuckles]

Hopefully not more than 70k…

If you look at vehicles like the 4Runner, Lexus GX550, and Jeep Grand Cherokee, the differences between the lower and top trims are around $15-25k.

 

[robothero]

I am not sure my budget goes up to $100k, but I agree that what we are seeing is a bargain at $60k. I am assuming we are seeing a fully loaded model that will cost more than $60k. I am assuming it will be more like $70-80k when we actually include a few options.

I'm not sure my budget goes up that high either but I have two children who yearn for the mines!




But seriously I am trying to budget towards the 80k side and hope it ends up under.

 

[J Alynn]

If you look at vehicles like the 4Runner, Lexus GX550, and Jeep Grand Cherokee, the differences between the lower and top trims are around $15-25k.

Yes but that doesn’t typically include things like modular bumper swaps, winches, heavy duty rock rails and the “heavy duty” features most do as aftermarket that SM will likely offer from factory so I think your range is solid from just typical dealer bells and whistles and I’ve been thinking same but if you also tack on the off-road accoutrements I’m guessing your getting close to $100K

 

[cyure]

Yes but that doesn’t typically include things like modular bumper swaps, winches, heavy duty rock rails and the “heavy duty” features most do as aftermarket that SM will likely offer from factory so I think your range is solid from just typical dealer bells and whistles and I’ve been thinking same but if you also tack on the off-road accoutrements I’m guessing your getting close to $100K

Winches and 37s add up quick I’m sure. I’m not doing any of that so I’m thinking it’s going to be closer to the $70 to $75. My main adds will be glass roof and leather interior. Things like that that add up as well, but not like some of the off road rigs you see.

 

[J Alynn]

Winches and 37s add up quick I’m sure. I’m not doing any of that so I’m thinking it’s going to be closer to the $70 to $75. My main adds will be glass roof and leather interior. Things like that that add up as well, but not like some of the off road rigs you see.

Don’t forget the tire carrier. That won’t be a cheap add

 

[maynard]

I think a fairly decked out model will be $80-85- be it as it may. I think if you lux it out and do the full off-road fit out you will be at $100K pretty easily.

I really hope it is less than these numbers...

 

[J Alynn]

I really hope it is less than these numbers...

Guess it depends on what features are included in the $60K model!

 

[robothero]

It's not a 1:1 but I think if you look at Audi's trim level bumps its probably fairly in % increase wise I'd expect for Scout trim levels.

Without adjusting any options, the standard A3:

Premium: $41k
Premium Plus: $44k
Prestige: $47k

With additional options packages ranging from $800-1800. (And these are just the packages, not individual accessory additions)

And then there's the S3 and RS3 which go all the way up to $75k without any options.