Brake pedal behavior: Preference?

[Logan]

I did a brief search, but apologies if this has already been covered somewhere else/sometime in the past.

For those coming from the 100% combustion engine side of things, you might be surprised to know that the behavior of the brake pedal of a battery electric vehicle, or EREV (the harvester option) is something that you can change.

One of the reasons that EV's are more efficient than combustion vehicles, is because instead of scrubbing off speed into friction when stopping, they prefer to regenerate electricity (basically, you're using your speed to turn the electric motors backwards, creating energy instead of expending it). And the strength of that regen can be change, as can its behavior.

You have a few basic options (which I've added as a poll):

• No regen braking.
  • Exactly the same behavior as a non-hybrid combustion vehicle. Least efficient/most brake wear.
• Regen behavior controlled by the brake pedal.
  • ie, light press of the brake pedal == light regen braking, firm press of the brake pedal == maximum regen braking, strong press of the brake pedal == max regen braking + friction brakes
• Regen behavior controlled by steering wheel mounted paddles (sort of like paddle shifters)
  • You raise/lower the regen by "shifting" between 'light, medium, strong" regen modes or something of the like.
• One Pedal driving
  • Regen braking is tied to accelerator pedal.
  • Lifting off the accelerator pedal applies increasing amounts of regen braking, allowing you to completely* control speed using one pedal
  • For any braking forces stronger than max regen, you need to use the brake pedal as you normally would

Personally, I have a strong preference towards having the braking pedal adjust regen strength, but curious what others think/are wanting.

I want to be able to coast/have very light regen when I lift off the accelerator, but as I press the brake pedal I want it to ramp up the regen (mimic-ing the feeling/behavior of normal friction brakes) until it hits max regen, and then after that engage the friction brakes. This way keeps the vehicle behavior consistent.

Why do I want this? Well,I find one pedal driving less smooth (as a passenger, I've not driven it myself), as the driver is constantly tipping in/lifting off the throttle pedal trying to keep/adjust speed in traffic. Also, if regen braking isn't strong enough with one pedal driving, you still have to engage the friction brakes. My worry there is that if I got used to the regen braking being "good enough" for most situations, that my reaction time/muscle memory would be reduced in panic braking situations.

Anyway, I thought this could be an interesting discussion. So... thoughts?

 

[LastDayScout]

I did a brief search, but apologies if this has already been covered somewhere else/sometime in the past.

For those coming from the 100% combustion engine side of things, you might be surprised to know that the behavior of the brake pedal of a battery electric vehicle, or EREV (the harvester option) is something that you can change.

One of the reasons that EV's are more efficient than combustion vehicles, is because instead of scrubbing off speed into friction when stopping, they prefer to regenerate electricity (basically, you're using your speed to turn the electric motors backwards, creating energy instead of expending it). And the strength of that regen can be change, as can its behavior.

You have a few basic options (which I've added as a poll):

• No regen braking.
  • Exactly the same behavior as a non-hybrid combustion vehicle. Least efficient/most brake wear.
• Regen behavior controlled by the brake pedal.
  • ie, light press of the brake pedal == light regen braking, firm press of the brake pedal == maximum regen braking, strong press of the brake pedal == max regen braking + friction brakes
• Regen behavior controlled by steering wheel mounted paddles (sort of like paddle shifters)
  • You raise/lower the regen by "shifting" between 'light, medium, strong" regen modes or something of the like.
• One Pedal driving
  • Regen braking is tied to accelerator pedal.
  • Lifting off the accelerator pedal applies increasing amounts of regen braking, allowing you to completely* control speed using one pedal
  • For any braking forces stronger than max regen, you need to use the brake pedal as you normally would

Personally, I have a strong preference towards having the braking pedal adjust regen strength, but curious what others think/are wanting.

I want to be able to coast/have very light regen when I lift off the accelerator, but as I press the brake pedal I want it to ramp up the regen (mimic-ing the feeling/behavior of normal friction brakes) until it hits max regen, and then after that engage the friction brakes. This way keeps the vehicle behavior consistent.

Why do I want this? Well,I find one pedal driving less smooth (as a passenger, I've not driven it myself), as the driver is constantly tipping in/lifting off the throttle pedal trying to keep/adjust speed in traffic. Also, if regen braking isn't strong enough with one pedal driving, you still have to engage the friction brakes. My worry there is that if I got used to the regen braking being "good enough" for most situations, that my reaction time/muscle memory would be reduced in panic braking situations.

Anyway, I thought this could be an interesting discussion. So... thoughts?

One pedal driving is the best! Period. It takes about a day to get used to it. After that you will wonder how you ever drove without it.

 

[Bodie]

I want Brake pedal controls regen strength with option for one pedal driving and wheel paddles like my current car has.

 

[Scoutsie]

I did a brief search, but apologies if this has already been covered somewhere else/sometime in the past.

For those coming from the 100% combustion engine side of things, you might be surprised to know that the behavior of the brake pedal of a battery electric vehicle, or EREV (the harvester option) is something that you can change.

One of the reasons that EV's are more efficient than combustion vehicles, is because instead of scrubbing off speed into friction when stopping, they prefer to regenerate electricity (basically, you're using your speed to turn the electric motors backwards, creating energy instead of expending it). And the strength of that regen can be change, as can its behavior.

You have a few basic options (which I've added as a poll):

• No regen braking.
  • Exactly the same behavior as a non-hybrid combustion vehicle. Least efficient/most brake wear.
• Regen behavior controlled by the brake pedal.
  • ie, light press of the brake pedal == light regen braking, firm press of the brake pedal == maximum regen braking, strong press of the brake pedal == max regen braking + friction brakes
• Regen behavior controlled by steering wheel mounted paddles (sort of like paddle shifters)
  • You raise/lower the regen by "shifting" between 'light, medium, strong" regen modes or something of the like.
• One Pedal driving
  • Regen braking is tied to accelerator pedal.
  • Lifting off the accelerator pedal applies increasing amounts of regen braking, allowing you to completely* control speed using one pedal
  • For any braking forces stronger than max regen, you need to use the brake pedal as you normally would

Personally, I have a strong preference towards having the braking pedal adjust regen strength, but curious what others think/are wanting.

I want to be able to coast/have very light regen when I lift off the accelerator, but as I press the brake pedal I want it to ramp up the regen (mimic-ing the feeling/behavior of normal friction brakes) until it hits max regen, and then after that engage the friction brakes. This way keeps the vehicle behavior consistent.

Why do I want this? Well,I find one pedal driving less smooth (as a passenger, I've not driven it myself), as the driver is constantly tipping in/lifting off the throttle pedal trying to keep/adjust speed in traffic. Also, if regen braking isn't strong enough with one pedal driving, you still have to engage the friction brakes. My worry there is that if I got used to the regen braking being "good enough" for most situations, that my reaction time/muscle memory would be reduced in panic braking situations.

Anyway, I thought this could be an interesting discussion. So... thoughts?

I watched a video of the one-pedal braking thing and it gave me the willies. I’ve done the regenerative braking for 20 years, and it’s what I’m used to and I don’t think about it unless I stare lovingly at the meter that shows me where energy is coming from/going to on the dash. It’s great. Hills and coasting do the most and best work to charge the battery.

Could I adjust to one-pedal driving? Probably, the same way people have to adjust how they drive if they rent a car overseas. Do I want to? Not really. I know that there are people who seem to love it and swear it’s the way to go, it’s so much better than taking your foot off one pedal and putting it on the other, but I don’t know, my ankles are still good shape for now. I’d be afraid of getting confused. I’d be worried about putting older drivers behind the wheel of cars that drive like this.

The other options have no appeal to me at all, but the steering wheel controls might not be the worst if you remember to engage them. That sounds more useful to an adaptive driver.

 

[Callsign_DISCO]

As an amputee I would like 2 pedal driving at least as an option, it takes a lot of fine muscle control to work the gas pedal.

 

[pwrofgrayskull]

Can we add an “all of the above” option? I’d like to change this setting at-will.

I don’t drive the same every day or every time of the day. I don’t drive the same places all of the time either. I have preferences and moods. Most of the time I’m pretty mellow, but there are times when I’ve got a wild hair. Sometimes I’m towing. Sometimes I’m not on pavement. My ideal option would be to have all choices here and let me choose when I want which one.

Yes, I have experienced one pedal driving. I loved it. I just want the ability to choose the way braking behaves at-will since it seems possible with the configuration Scout Motors is using here.

 

[Garbone]

If you don't know 1 pedal is the correct answer you just don't know. Me BEV is in the body shop. Having to row gears and brake on the truck this week. Lame, sure I have some nice pipes but uggg with the pedal and shifter work.

 

[Logan]

One pedal driving is the best! Period. It takes about a day to get used to it. After that you will wonder how you ever drove without it.

Do you ever have to revert to friction brakes? And is slowing down the muscle memory a worry of yours at all?

Again, I've not used it yet, but I do worry about that some. Sort of like when backup cameras became required, and how some people have become accustomed to them/reliant on them.

In fact, I had someone pick up my wife and I to take us to the airport a few years back, and it had rained, and their backup camera was useless. They asked me to drive, because they didn't think they could use the mirrors. And I have a nephew who is now about ~20yrs old, and he was saying to me recently he doesn't think he could backup without one :/.

So, I could see it being a potential problem, if 99% of the time 1 pedal driving braking is fine... but for those 1% stops, do you/will I remember to in time to reach for the brake pedal?

 

[Logan]

Can we add an “all of the above” option? I’d like to change this setting at-will.

I don’t drive the same every day or every time of the day. I don’t drive the same places all of the time either. I have preferences and moods. Most of the time I’m pretty mellow, but there are times when I’ve got a wild hair. Sometimes I’m towing. Sometimes I’m not on pavement. My ideal option would be to have all choices here and let me choose when I want which one.

Yes, I have experienced one pedal driving. I loved it. I just want the ability to choose the way braking behaves at-will since it seems possible with the configuration Scout Motors is using here.

Oh, for sure, I'd love if all of them were possible. I was just curious what everyone "expectations" were in this area.

 

[Scoutsie]

If you don't know 1 pedal is the correct answer you just don't know. Me BEV is in the body shop. Having to row gears and brake on the truck this week. Lame, sure I have some nice pipes but uggg with the pedal and shifter work.

When we’d take our Prius in for maintenance, sometimes we’d get a courtesy loaner, but like most cars, they still had keyed entry and keyed ignition, which ours didn’t. My ex-husband would dramatically sigh and whine about having to use keys LIKE A PLEBE so I’d follow his lead in by dramatically throwing down my purse, etc. What I’m hearing is being into separate gas and break pedals is like being committed to a physical key? I don’t know if I want to be An Old.

Do you ever have to revert to friction brakes? And is slowing down the muscle memory a worry of yours at all?

Again, I've not used it yet, but I do worry about that some. Sort of like when backup cameras became required, and how some people have become accustomed to them/reliant on them.

In fact, I had someone pick up my wife and I to take us to the airport a few years back, and it had rained, and their backup camera was useless. They asked me to drive, because they didn't think they could use the mirrors. And I have a nephew who is now about ~20yrs old, and he was saying to me recently he doesn't think he could backup without one :/.

So, I could see it being a potential problem, if 99% of the time 1 pedal driving braking is fine... but for those 1% stops, do you/will I remember to in time to reach for the brake pedal?

Also curious about the muscle memory question. I’d guess your mileage varies, but I’m curious.

And what the hell do they teach in Driver’s Ed in these our modern times about backing up? That you’ll snap your neck if you turn around to back up? Relying only on the brand-new backup camera on my five-day-old car is how I sideswiped it on a parking pillar. ? You gotta twist the torso and look! Is that going to become arcane knowledge, like writing in cursive?

 

[Logan]

When we’d take our Prius in for maintenance, sometimes we’d get a courtesy loaner, but like most cars, they still had keyed entry and keyed ignition, which ours didn’t. My ex-husband would dramatically sigh and whine about having to use keys LIKE A PLEBE so I’d follow his lead in by dramatically throwing down my purse, etc. What I’m hearing is being into separate gas and break pedals is like being committed to a physical key? I don’t know if I want to be An Old.


Also curious about the muscle memory question. I’d guess your mileage varies, but I’m curious.

And what the hell do they teach in Driver’s Ed in these our modern times about backing up? That you’ll snap your neck if you turn around to back up? Relying only on the brand-new backup camera on my five-day-old car is how I sideswiped it on a parking pillar. ? You gotta twist the torso and look! Is that going to become arcane knowledge, like writing in cursive?

I mean, to an extent, I'm just guessing. But human nature is pretty strong. Do thing a lot and get good at it, or do a thing not often and forget its there. And given how many people I've seen who have already gotten worse at backing up/using the mirrors, I can easily theorycraft that there COULD be a problem with 1 pedal driving and emergency braking.

But perhaps that is me.

On the upside, some of the more powerful EV's can have really strong regen braking (I think I remember reading the Hyundai Ioniq 5 N can pull something like 0.6 negative G forces?

 

[pwrofgrayskull]

Do you ever have to revert to friction brakes? And is slowing down the muscle memory a worry of yours at all?

Again, I've not used it yet, but I do worry about that some. Sort of like when backup cameras became required, and how some people have become accustomed to them/reliant on them.

In fact, I had someone pick up my wife and I to take us to the airport a few years back, and it had rained, and their backup camera was useless. They asked me to drive, because they didn't think they could use the mirrors. And I have a nephew who is now about ~20yrs old, and he was saying to me recently he doesn't think he could backup without one :/.

So, I could see it being a potential problem, if 99% of the time 1 pedal driving braking is fine... but for those 1% stops, do you/will I remember to in time to reach for the brake pedal?

The limited instances that I have driven a couple of Teslas with regen braking fully on, I did enjoy one pedal driving. I HIGHLY doubt everyone would enjoy it or if it would be physically possible for everyone to drive that way effectively. This is why I think an all of the above option would be useful.

When I have been one pedal driving in a limited amount of experiences, I did not have any hesitation - when I REALLY needed to stop it was definitely still second nature to use the brake pedal as well. No issues there. I guess though if you did it long enough maybe the answer could get weird, but probably only for those that haven’t had a ton of driving miles under their belt is my suspicion.

The whole camera thing makes me chuckle, this is why I continue to use all of the tools available - mirrors, camera, turn around and look, get out and look…whatever is needed to verify you’re doing what you are trying to do.

 

[Scoutsie]

I mean, to an extent, I'm just guessing. But human nature is pretty strong. Do thing a lot and get good at it, or do a thing not often and forget its there. And given how many people I've seen who have already gotten worse at backing up/using the mirrors, I can easily theorycraft that there COULD be a problem with 1 pedal driving and emergency braking.

But perhaps that is me.

On the upside, some of the more powerful EV's can have really strong regen braking (I think I remember reading the Hyundai Ioniq 5 N can pull something like 0.6 negative G forces?

That’s what freaks me out: the brake pedal has a function, the gas pedal has a function. It seems risky to give the gas pedal two functions but only sometimes it’s not? Dude demonstrated it in a video about how great it was until it wasn’t and then you need the brake pedal anyhow, and after that I wasn’t buying what he was selling. I think about the number of times I read about a store or a house in my neighborhood that got a new entrance courtesy of someone confusing the gas for the brakes. That doesn’t sound like it’s for a person with MS who sometimes forgets to type a word in a sentence.

I don’t know about the G force factor but I now have to go read about that. ??? If I can drift in the parking lot at Dunkin’ Donuts and yell about my power levels increasing, I am 100% going to do that.

 

[R1TVT]

The options and implementations for regen can vary widely, and are not limited to the way this is described in the first post. It took me all of 2 minutes to adjust to driving my R1T. When I drive my wife's SUV, its feels SO INEFFICIENT and ANTIQUATED.

There is no lack of muscle memory. When you need to slam the brakes, the brake is still there and you SLAM IT
>>> Even with Regen set on HIGH, if the truck isn't decreasing speed fast enough, nothing changes about your personal awareness, then using the mechanical brake. In fact, I would view REGEN as being just the opposite of something that needs to be learned - it will actually aid you in braking and is safer in my view. That said, my truck doesn't allow you to disengage REGEN completely. I can set it to LOW, but it will still start slowing the truck if I take my foot all the way off the accelerator pedal.

I really like the way Rivian implemented regen. You have REGEN in Settings, and you can adjust it if you want. I tend to ride with Regen in the middle setting for the most part. If I drove in a lot of stop and go traffic, I might set it to HIGH. Once it is set, it is very predictable and feels 100% natural to see a stop coming and start lifting off the accelerator. As you do this, the truck starts slowing instantly at a very steady rate. Just like you do in an ICE vehicle when coasting, if you don't think the amount of regen will be enough, you hit the brake. 100% natural. No drama. Zero issues. Much better efficiency and way LESS MAINTENANCE.

I had an issue at the Rivian service center where the tech actually asked me if I ever used the brakes, and I admitted that it was "very infrequent". He told me that was common, and that I should probably hit an open parking lot and SLAM the brakes a few times once a month, just to make sure to keep the mechanical brakes working well, and to make sure that the rotors and pads wear in evenly.

As far as herky-jerky driving, this is common with new EV drivers that may not understand the concept of feathering the accelerator, or that if they change regen settings or drive modes, they might have a smoother driving experience. In my truck, the most sensitivity probably comes with REGEN set to high in SPORT MODE. I generally drive in All-Purpose mode on road, and as mentioned leave regen at medium.

Regen is just one reason why I would have a very hard time going back to an ICE truck... Regen is amazing. I would say, don't knock it until you try it, and hopefully Scout will implement something that works really well (and can be adjusted by preference).

*** Snow mode also reduces regen for obvious reasons, and some people drive around in snow mode (when there is no snow) bc they like the way the truck behaves with less throttle sensivity and lower regen!

 

[oldgeeksguide]

My pref isn’t really there, akin to “all of the above”, but I’d like the brake pedal to always do regen when it can and friction when it needs to, ie “blended braking”. I’d like paddles to control what happens when I take my foot off the gas, so I can use it the same way as engine braking, ie putting it in lower gear going downhill or using manual gears to slow down. My one grip with Kia Hyundai paddles is that they disable brake pedal regen when you set it to the lowest level. That makes no sense to me. If the car remembers preferences, then everyone’s happy: one pedal driving folks can leave region in highest mode, others can adjust it as they like with confidence that hitting the brakes won’t waste energy.

 

[oldgeeksguide]

Do you ever have to revert to friction brakes? And is slowing down the muscle memory a worry of yours at all?

Again, I've not used it yet, but I do worry about that some. Sort of like when backup cameras became required, and how some people have become accustomed to them/reliant on them.

In fact, I had someone pick up my wife and I to take us to the airport a few years back, and it had rained, and their backup camera was useless. They asked me to drive, because they didn't think they could use the mirrors. And I have a nephew who is now about ~20yrs old, and he was saying to me recently he doesn't think he could backup without one :/.

So, I could see it being a potential problem, if 99% of the time 1 pedal driving braking is fine... but for those 1% stops, do you/will I remember to in time to reach for the brake pedal?

Using the brake pedal shouldn’t be equated to friction brakes. Brake pedal means slow down; a driver shouldn’t care what combination of electric and friction braking is required, just that it’s smooth and predictable. It seems that some car makers couldn’t figure out how to do that so they ingrained the idea that regen breaking only happens with the gas pedal. I think that’s very unfortunate that it’s such a common misconception.

 

[Logan]

Regen is just one reason why I would have a very hard time going back to an ICE truck... Regen is amazing. I would say, don't knock it until you try it, and hopefully Scout will implement something that works really well (and can be adjusted by preference).

Totally agree here. After driving even just a hybrid around for a long enough time, a normal combustion vehicle feels very inefficient. I love coasting/regenning down a mountain pass, using no gas, and getting free range out of it. I also try to use it as much as I can when slowing down on offramps/coming to stops in town/etc.

And thats just with my PHEV.

That’s what freaks me out: the brake pedal has a function, the gas pedal has a function. It seems risky to give the gas pedal two functions but only sometimes it’s not? Dude demonstrated it in a video about how great it was until it wasn’t and then you need the brake pedal anyhow, and after that I wasn’t buying what he was selling. I think about the number of times I read about a store or a house in my neighborhood that got a new entrance courtesy of someone confusing the gas for the brakes. That doesn’t sound like it’s for a person with MS who sometimes forgets to type a word in a sentence.

I don’t know about the G force factor but I now have to go read about that. ??? If I can drift in the parking lot at Dunkin’ Donuts and yell about my power levels increasing, I am 100% going to do that.

That is my worry. I mean, all vehicles have had some sort of slowing when you lift off of the accelerator. Some amount of engine braking and aerodynamic drag. But 1 pedal braking adds "large amounts" of braking to the accelerator pedal, which is my worry.

But like others have said, I assume thats more of a problem for the people that don't have a lot of driving under their belt, or have driven 1 pedal for a long time.

My pref isn’t really there, akin to “all of the above”, but I’d like the brake pedal to always do regen when it can and friction when it needs to, ie “blended braking”. I’d like paddles to control what happens when I take my foot off the gas, so I can use it the same way as engine braking, ie putting it in lower gear going downhill or using manual gears to slow down. My one grip with Kia Hyundai paddles is that they disable brake pedal regen when you set it to the lowest level. That makes no sense to me. If the car remembers preferences, then everyone’s happy: one pedal driving folks can leave region in highest mode, others can adjust it as they like with confidence that hitting the brakes won’t waste energy.

Yeah, this is more or less where I'm coming from. I want the braking when I press the brake pedal to be regen first, and then if needed, add more via friction.

Funny enough, my PHEV is a Hyundai, and but my paddle shifters don't adjust regen, they only shift the transmission. But pressing on the brake increases regen, then adds friction on top of that when needed.

 

[Fins160]

There is one easy answer - this will be a setting like every other EV. That’s the beauty of an EV platform, it gives you MORE options.

And I agree, once you go 1 pedal, you never go back (until I jump into my 65 RCS and blast down some forest roads ?)

 

[Chaz26]

I’d guess they’ll have a couple of settings to have either one pedal or so you can use the brakes. As a current ev owner it’s almost a must for me that single pedal driving would be an option as it’s so much better than two pedal driving.

 

[LastDayScout]

I watched a video of the one-pedal braking thing and it gave me the willies. I’ve done the regenerative braking for 20 years, and it’s what I’m used to and I don’t think about it unless I stare lovingly at the meter that shows me where energy is coming from/going to on the dash. It’s great. Hills and coasting do the most and best work to charge the battery.

Could I adjust to one-pedal driving? Probably, the same way people have to adjust how they drive if they rent a car overseas. Do I want to? Not really. I know that there are people who seem to love it and swear it’s the way to go, it’s so much better than taking your foot off one pedal and putting it on the other, but I don’t know, my ankles are still good shape for now. I’d be afraid of getting confused. I’d be worried about putting older drivers behind the wheel of cars that drive like this.

The other options have no appeal to me at all, but the steering wheel controls might not be the worst if you remember to engage them. That sounds more useful to an adaptive driver.

Most EVs I have driven let you choose the level of regen you want. You will have the option to drive as you normally do. Also, there is usually a creep function too if you like to lurch forward and modulate with your brake pedal.

However, the more you maximize your regenerative braking the more energy you recover. It also greatly reduces the wear on your brakes and pads.