They’ve been playing chess while we’ve been playing “pin the tail on the donkey”. They leveraged their strengths, access to a huge market, ability to streamline government regulation and access capital, to acquire and develop technology and expertise, while we’re focused on working spreadsheets to show quarterly profits. We’ve handed over the lead in a lot of areas because our system is inherently short sighted.
Don't let the Scout become a status symbol; why $60k misses the point of the Revival
- Thread starter tomgillotti
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True, but they’re not making particularly unique cars. That BYD pickup truck is the fugliest thing I’ve seen in a minute. There are probably some incredibly talented designers and engineers out there who can make some really good-looking cars, but they’re not working for BYD. They look like Japanese cars. That’s boring. There’s no unique design language that says “these are BYD.” Lame.
You still have not addressed any of the arguments above regarding CCP control of major industries like automotive, their ability to produce product without labor laws, lack of concern for profit, and most importantly the ethical implications of their documented usage of slave labor. That says far more about your character than anything you've written in this thread.
And you are looking selectively. If you re-read my post, I specifically wrote that I didn't see evidence of declining willingness to pay for Scout. I've even bolded and italicized the relevant part again in case you missed it the first time, because below you cite a bunch of stats for Ford and other manufacturers, not Scout.
Present your evidence for Scout. Last I've seen their reservations continue to climb.
Nor does a Scout buyer care about what Rivian is doing. We are talking about the launch product pricing, not years down the road when they get to maturity and expand their line up.
Also, buyers do not have to be on a forum to be an enthusiast.
The good news is in a few short years, we'll have the data and one of us will be proven right. If Scout goes out of business, provides massive discounts on their launch products, offers under market interest rate deals to get people to buy, majorly de-features the Traveller and Terra to hit a lower price point, or undertakes a major pivot in 2027 due to not finding product/market fit for their launch product, I will eat crow.
Stepping back from the recent debate on manufacturing practices, I want to refocus on the core issue we’ve been tracking: pricing and the rapid shift in the EV market. Over the last couple of weeks, we have seen undeniable moves from major automakers that prove the industry is aggressively pivoting to capture the mass market.
Consider the evidence that just dropped:
1. Tesla's Price Slash: Tesla just cut the price of the AWD Cybertruck by $20,000, bringing the starting price down to $59,990. This is a direct, aggressive move to squeeze out competitors like the Rivian R1T and capture buyers who have been sitting on the sidelines.
2. Ford's Small EV Pickup: Ford recently announced their new electric platform, leading with a highly efficient, Maverick-sized pickup. Their stated target is a starting price under $30,000 when it arrives in 2027.
3. Rivian R2 Reviews: The review embargo for the R2 just lifted, and while the early impressions are fantastic, the most important factor is the heavily publicized ~$45,000 base price. Curiously, they haven't locked in the official trim pricing yet, but that $45k target remains the absolute anchor for their mass-market strategy.
This all points to one reality: the "Early Adopter" era of the high-margin, $70k+ lifestyle EV is over. The industry is currently crossing into the "Early Majority" phase, where buyers demand high utility and undeniable value.
When the Scout finally hits the road in a couple of years, the landscape will be entirely different than it was in 2021. Launching at a $60,000+ price point will mean fighting in a saturated, hyper-competitive segment. Arriving at the ~$45k starting point isn't just a hopeful wish for consumers; it is an absolute strategic necessity for Scout if they want to survive and achieve volume sales. The market has already spoken, and the major players are adjusting accordingly.
Consider the evidence that just dropped:
1. Tesla's Price Slash: Tesla just cut the price of the AWD Cybertruck by $20,000, bringing the starting price down to $59,990. This is a direct, aggressive move to squeeze out competitors like the Rivian R1T and capture buyers who have been sitting on the sidelines.
2. Ford's Small EV Pickup: Ford recently announced their new electric platform, leading with a highly efficient, Maverick-sized pickup. Their stated target is a starting price under $30,000 when it arrives in 2027.
3. Rivian R2 Reviews: The review embargo for the R2 just lifted, and while the early impressions are fantastic, the most important factor is the heavily publicized ~$45,000 base price. Curiously, they haven't locked in the official trim pricing yet, but that $45k target remains the absolute anchor for their mass-market strategy.
This all points to one reality: the "Early Adopter" era of the high-margin, $70k+ lifestyle EV is over. The industry is currently crossing into the "Early Majority" phase, where buyers demand high utility and undeniable value.
When the Scout finally hits the road in a couple of years, the landscape will be entirely different than it was in 2021. Launching at a $60,000+ price point will mean fighting in a saturated, hyper-competitive segment. Arriving at the ~$45k starting point isn't just a hopeful wish for consumers; it is an absolute strategic necessity for Scout if they want to survive and achieve volume sales. The market has already spoken, and the major players are adjusting accordingly.
Elon Musk kills first Tesla Cybertruck ($60k) that makes sense just 10 days after launch
Tesla just launched the most compelling version of the Cybertruck it has ever offered — a dual-motor all-wheel-drive model starting...
electrek.co
While, I can see some of what you’re saying. Cyber trucks are numerous so in order to sell more and probably not just one of the CEOs other companies they need to cut costs so people want to buy them and getting closer to their promised launch price is a good thing for them.
Ford is not targeting a full-size truck or SUV market with the universal EV platform.
We all know that launc versions of R2 will not be the base model, and will not be starting at $45,000 for at least a few months.
So it’s kind of a ridiculous ask for scout a brand new full-size vehicle that has nothing else on the market to come in at the same price as a base model R2 a significantly smaller vehicle.
The majority of people wanting a scout are expecting more than $60,000 at the beginning because they’re not launching a base model. They will launch with features and equipment options and already installed and a base model will come down the line closer to the end of the reservation queue.
But using the cyber truck as a baseline, I don’t think is quite accurate as Tesla over, promised under delivered and ended up selling a large amount of trucks to the CEOs other companies and have now dropped as a price and everyone’s calling at a great value which it probably is if you want that vehicle but the majority of people that want EV truck will probably not consider the cyber truck for one reason or another regardless of a $60,000 starting price brand new
Ford is not targeting a full-size truck or SUV market with the universal EV platform.
We all know that launc versions of R2 will not be the base model, and will not be starting at $45,000 for at least a few months.
So it’s kind of a ridiculous ask for scout a brand new full-size vehicle that has nothing else on the market to come in at the same price as a base model R2 a significantly smaller vehicle.
The majority of people wanting a scout are expecting more than $60,000 at the beginning because they’re not launching a base model. They will launch with features and equipment options and already installed and a base model will come down the line closer to the end of the reservation queue.
But using the cyber truck as a baseline, I don’t think is quite accurate as Tesla over, promised under delivered and ended up selling a large amount of trucks to the CEOs other companies and have now dropped as a price and everyone’s calling at a great value which it probably is if you want that vehicle but the majority of people that want EV truck will probably not consider the cyber truck for one reason or another regardless of a $60,000 starting price brand new
I agree with what @RodorW said.
I would also add that the price drop of the Cybertruck probably has more to do with it being a commercial flop than anything else.
That said, the fact that Toyota finally seems to be entering the car market with EVs that actually seem to be good and are aimed at regular Toyota (and Subaru) buyers is a good sign. It tells me that we are indeed approaching the Early Majority stage of the adoption curve. Toyota has famously been a laggard in EVs so the fact that it's launching four of them this year is notable. The transition to EVS from combustion vehicles is inevitable. It will happen no matter what those in power say because EVs are objectively better vehicles to own and operate and are better economically for owners than combustion alternatives.
I am concerned about Scout and the segment of the vehicle market it has targeted (full size trucks) but with Ford giving up on full-sized EV trucks it does create more room for a company like Scout to operate. I suspect that if Scout delivers as promised at a reasonable price they might find the full-size truck market to be theirs for the taking - and not just the full-size EV truck market but the market as a whole.
A full size EV truck (or EREV if you must) at a similar price (ideally cheaper!) to an F-150 with all the normal things truck people expect like body-on-frame, good towing numbers, long range etc. should pull a significant number of people out of gas pickups and into these trucks just based on the economics alone. Who wants to drop a couple hundred bucks a week to fill up when you can easily charge at home overnight for a few bucks? People will do the math and figure out that the Scout is better value (and looks cooler too!) than a frumpy old F-150.
If Scout markets the trucks correctly - and so far it seems like they've been doing a decent job at this - Scout will probably start to eat Ford's lunch. Ford has not basically left the market wide open for Scout and Scout has an advantage over the only remaining EV truck on the market, the Silverado/Sierra EVs. (Cybertruck doesn't count because it's a tech-bro truck and normal people don't even consider it as an option) The other options aren't body on frame trucks. They aren't "real" trucks for doing "real" truck things. Scout can own the serious truck market if they want to and Ford will be left playing catch-up.
I think Scout will be fine IF they continue to execute on their plan.
I would also add that the price drop of the Cybertruck probably has more to do with it being a commercial flop than anything else.
That said, the fact that Toyota finally seems to be entering the car market with EVs that actually seem to be good and are aimed at regular Toyota (and Subaru) buyers is a good sign. It tells me that we are indeed approaching the Early Majority stage of the adoption curve. Toyota has famously been a laggard in EVs so the fact that it's launching four of them this year is notable. The transition to EVS from combustion vehicles is inevitable. It will happen no matter what those in power say because EVs are objectively better vehicles to own and operate and are better economically for owners than combustion alternatives.
I am concerned about Scout and the segment of the vehicle market it has targeted (full size trucks) but with Ford giving up on full-sized EV trucks it does create more room for a company like Scout to operate. I suspect that if Scout delivers as promised at a reasonable price they might find the full-size truck market to be theirs for the taking - and not just the full-size EV truck market but the market as a whole.
A full size EV truck (or EREV if you must) at a similar price (ideally cheaper!) to an F-150 with all the normal things truck people expect like body-on-frame, good towing numbers, long range etc. should pull a significant number of people out of gas pickups and into these trucks just based on the economics alone. Who wants to drop a couple hundred bucks a week to fill up when you can easily charge at home overnight for a few bucks? People will do the math and figure out that the Scout is better value (and looks cooler too!) than a frumpy old F-150.
If Scout markets the trucks correctly - and so far it seems like they've been doing a decent job at this - Scout will probably start to eat Ford's lunch. Ford has not basically left the market wide open for Scout and Scout has an advantage over the only remaining EV truck on the market, the Silverado/Sierra EVs. (Cybertruck doesn't count because it's a tech-bro truck and normal people don't even consider it as an option) The other options aren't body on frame trucks. They aren't "real" trucks for doing "real" truck things. Scout can own the serious truck market if they want to and Ford will be left playing catch-up.
I think Scout will be fine IF they continue to execute on their plan.
You're forgetting one major detail. The Scout will be a high tech EREV and not just an EV so the "SM adopters" will be in an entirely different class across the board to begin with.
On top of that, with the high level of tech, level of luxury, and high capabilities that SM is appearing to be bringing to market I for one am not expecting to pay anything less than $100K at launch and not less than $80k for the base after that.
Not every scout is going to be EREV but I would expect post launch to be closer to 70k opposed to 60
Do you ever plan on contributing to any discussions other than this one? I’m asking because I’m curious to know your opinions about other things. This is really the hill you want to die on, huh?
I’m not really buying the evidence for your thesis. As was pointed out, the Cybertruck is a flop and a price drop is warranted. Ford’s actions make a stronger argument for what you’re saying. The R2 price point has been a known thing for a few years (at least by anyone following Rivian with interest). How is any of this an “aggressive pivot?” These don’t seem like radical course corrections for a volatile market. Two out of three of these seem like long-term plans coming into fruition. One is the result of the market correcting itself for more supply than there is demand for a truck inspired by a manchild’s nostalgia for PS1 polygons.
So Tesla has cut the CT price to be the same as Scout's price. This validates Scout's model.
The Maverick is 2 sizes smaller than Scout's first truck. Ford will be competing with Slate, not Scout - different buyers.
Again, not Scout's buyer. Scout will likely follow with a cheaper/smaller vehicle but that is not today.
I don't know how many times I have to say this but you continue to display a stunning ignorance of finance. Every new car company that has survived recently has done so with the same playbook that Scout is following. Tesla, Rivian, and Lucid, all started with high margin cars that allowed them to pay down the debt incurred to build factories and do the design work for the first vehicle(s) and then provide runway to design and start production of the later, lower cost vehicles.
Please enlighten us with your genius for how Scout Motors can start a company, build a factory, and then sell vehicles at zero or negative margins. And don't say Volkswagen. Have you read the news about them lately? They are in big trouble - they don't have a lot of cash to throw around right now. And even if they did, why should their investors subsidize Scout so they make your vehicle cheaper? I mean, that is what the CCP does so I guess that does make sense to you.
All I get from your posts is whining that *things* are too expensive. So Scout is supposed to lose money on every sale but make it up in volume? You just keep saying, they need to make a $45k truck. The answer is, they will, just not right away.
Will it work out? No one knows. Not you and not I. Tesla was on the verge of bankruptcy at least 3 times that I knew about. You are right that timing has a lot to do with it - unfortunately Scout can't control that, any more than Tesla trying to sell $125,000 Roadsters in the aftermath of the GFC. It was a grind but they made it through and here they are. Scout also has to accept the market that they are given - these plans started years ago. It would cost them way more to pivot than to just push forward with the models they have, and design the second round of vehicles to meet the latest market.
Based on the number of Cowboy Cadillacs, Suburbans, Tahoes/Denalis, etc rolling around here, people keep coming up with $60-$80k for trucks and SUVs.......
So this thread is going a bit long in the tooth. But for those who are entertained, I thought I might add some fodder to the flame. I found an article Car and Driver "Best Off-Road Pickup Trucks for 2024" - twelve of the finest factory specials for rolling in the dirt. (Presumably one of the major attractions of the Scout) - I gathered all the BASE Prices listed for 2024 in the article and got both the Mean and the Median of all the BASE prices.
Here are the results:
Mean: $64,858.33
Median: $71,002.50
If we’re pricing the Scout based on what it can actually do, it should—at the very least—be on par with its competitors. That’s even before you factor in its unique design innovations. Looking at these numbers, you could actually argue the Scout is a bit of a bargain. To suggest it should be $20,000 cheaper than a Jeep Gladiator while offering the same go-anywhere capability just isn't grounded in reality.
Here are the results:
Mean: $64,858.33
Median: $71,002.50
If we’re pricing the Scout based on what it can actually do, it should—at the very least—be on par with its competitors. That’s even before you factor in its unique design innovations. Looking at these numbers, you could actually argue the Scout is a bit of a bargain. To suggest it should be $20,000 cheaper than a Jeep Gladiator while offering the same go-anywhere capability just isn't grounded in reality.
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