Combustion Engine

[Rkm921]

I suggest you consider a version with combustion engine option. You are definitely missing the mark going without a version using 100% combustion engine power. The EV market may have its place but consider the roots of this vehicle and the reason it would be used. There may be the buyer who wants a street queen but the heart and blood of this vehicle is the road less travelled; off road cross country adventure where there will be no EV charger. Take a que from the loss GM is taking with the Hummer.

This will go down as one of the greatest marketing blunders next to the Delorean.

 

[Cranky Canuck]

I can't speak for Canada but if there was no $7,500 incentive for leasing, USA EV sales would likely not be so rosy. There have been insane lease deals. There will be a glut of used EVS in 2 to 3 years. Whether or not those owners continue with EV's will be interesting.

Once you go to an EV you don't go back to combustion, it would be like and going back to a steam locomotive. The data is very clear on this. The vast majority of EV owners will not consider a combustion vehicle when shopping for a new vehicle.

https://globalevalliance.com/wp-con...survey-2024-webinar-presentation-10-dec-1.pdf

 

[Chuckles]

Once you go to an EV you don't go back to combustion, it would be like and going back to a steam locomotive. The data is very clear on this. The vast majority of EV owners will not consider a combustion vehicle when shopping for a new vehicle.

https://globalevalliance.com/wp-con...survey-2024-webinar-presentation-10-dec-1.pdf

And I'm not denying those figures. But I think the United States is more of an anomaly than the rest of the world. Gasoline is cheaper here than many industrialized countries. EV's are still More expensive up front. Lots of people look at a monthly payment and don't think about long-term costs. Insurance on many EV's is still quite high. In the short term, I think there's a limit for EV market share in the United States. Keeping out the affordable Chinese EVS and automakers producing more hybrids and EREV's will slow electrification. Mass BEV adoption is inevitable, but it's going to take more time here.

 

[J Alynn]

And I'm not denying those figures. But I think the United States is more of an anomaly than the rest of the world. Gasoline is cheaper here than many industrialized countries. EV's are still More expensive up front. Lots of people look at a monthly payment and don't think about long-term costs. Insurance on many EV's is still quite high. In the short term, I think there's a limit for EV market share in the United States. Keeping out the affordable Chinese EVS and automakers producing more hybrids and EREV's will slow electrification. Mass BEV adoption is inevitable, but it's going to take more time here.

No doubt but as infrastructure improves so will EV’s

 

[Scoutsie]

Nobody sits around reminiscing about the old Scouts with topics like-“remember how great they were because of the gas engine”

Remember how great it smelled when the gas engine started to burn when you were out shopping for a Christmas tree, or was that only my family that this happened to? The doors also flew open in succession. Pretty sure that was the spirit of the season. Gosh, I miss that. If only a company would just give me that sense of insecurity again!

 

[Dana]

EV market is struggling. V8 or diesel option is necessary. No one buys a scout for environmental or economy reasons. Don’t turn it into a ‘car’. Leave it an international harvester scout.

The original company went belly up…that might not be the ideal business model, lol, especially 40 years later. Lots of threads on this, you’ll hear a lot of opinions if you search the threads. But, high level, EVs continue to grow market share…hybrids are starting to outpace pure EVs. 21% of new car registrations. Europe the percentages are much higher. The Harvester option will slot in with the hybrid crowd. Today at a supercharger I was in company with two other Teslas, a Hyundai, a Ford, and I think a BMW (or maybe Audi, didn’t look that close). From a manufacturing perspective an EV is less parts. Easier to get off the ground quicker. I respect your love of the ICE, but there hasn’t been anything in press that indicates an ICE is in the works...I couldn’t imagine they’d switch power eighteen months before deliveries (and revenue!). Maybe check out the Harvester option? As a 7+ year pure EV owner it is super nice to just pull into the garage and plug in. The instant torque and low center of gravity are also nice. The prototypes will be on display at IH annual show in Ohio in June.

 

[04Ram2500Hemi]

Remember how great it smelled when the gas engine started to burn when you were out shopping for a Christmas tree, or was that only my family that this happened to? The doors also flew open in succession. Pretty sure that was the spirit of the season. Gosh, I miss that. If only a company would just give me that sense of insecurity again!

You shop for a Christmas Tree? I go to the woods and cut mine down.

 

[Cranky Canuck]

And I'm not denying those figures. But I think the United States is more of an anomaly than the rest of the world. Gasoline is cheaper here than many industrialized countries. EV's are still More expensive up front. Lots of people look at a monthly payment and don't think about long-term costs. Insurance on many EV's is still quite high. In the short term, I think there's a limit for EV market share in the United States. Keeping out the affordable Chinese EVS and automakers producing more hybrids and EREV's will slow electrification. Mass BEV adoption is inevitable, but it's going to take more time here.

A couple of points on what you said here, the US is exceptional but not in a good way. You're right, the US is an anomaly that is lagging the rest of the world on many fronts including EV adoption, that's true. Gasoline might be a little cheaper right now than it was a few months ago but it's still far more expensive than electricity, that hasn't changed.

EVs are not more expensive up front anymore, especially compared to similar vehicles. I recently was asked about EV prices by someone in the market for a new three-row vehicle. They were looking at a Sienna and I told them to go for an EV9 instead. The upfront cost was the same (just over $60k CAD), but with the EV9 they'd save over $100 a week in fuel. The main issue with EV prices is that there aren't really any good options at the lower end of the price spectrum.

Insurance on EVs is also the same as combustion cars so not sure where you got that bit of info but at least here there's no difference in insurance cost. In fact some combustion vehicles are more expensive (mostly Toyotas) than EVs because they get stolen more often. If you want really expensive insurance get a Tacoma! lol

The only limit to EV market share is market saturation. You guys are on the same adoption curve as the rest of the world, only you're a few years behind everyone else. I agree though, affordable EVs from China would really get things going. The oil lobby is strong and the government is weak in the US so there are a lot of headwinds pushing against progress. As you say though, EV adoption is inevitable.

 

[Chuckles]

A couple of points on what you said here, the US is exceptional but not in a good way. You're right, the US is an anomaly that is lagging the rest of the world on many fronts including EV adoption, that's true. Gasoline might be a little cheaper right now than it was a few months ago but it's still far more expensive than electricity, that hasn't changed.

EVs are not more expensive up front anymore, especially compared to similar vehicles. I recently was asked about EV prices by someone in the market for a new three-row vehicle. They were looking at a Sienna and I told them to go for an EV9 instead. The upfront cost was the same (just over $60k CAD), but with the EV9 they'd save over $100 a week in fuel. The main issue with EV prices is that there aren't really any good options at the lower end of the price spectrum.

Insurance on EVs is also the same as combustion cars so not sure where you got that bit of info but at least here there's no difference in insurance cost. In fact some combustion vehicles are more expensive (mostly Toyotas) than EVs because they get stolen more often. If you want really expensive insurance get a Tacoma! lol

The only limit to EV market share is market saturation. You guys are on the same adoption curve as the rest of the world, only you're a few years behind everyone else. I agree though, affordable EVs from China would really get things going. The oil lobby is strong and the government is weak in the US so there are a lot of headwinds pushing against progress. As you say though, EV adoption is inevitable.

Electric fuel savings are real, but only if you charge at home. If you are dependent on high-speed charging, the savings evaporate. Car and Driver road tripped a Rivian: "Our most extreme road trip was a 24-hour run from our Michigan office to IMSA's 24-hour endurance race at Daytona International Speedway more than 1000 miles away in Florida. We made seven stops to recharge the battery pack and spent nearly eight and a half hours DC fast-charging at a cost of $317, one way. Fuel for a gas vehicle getting 15 mpg at $4 per gallon would have cost $289." Admittedly, Rivians are not the most efficient EVs on the road. Electricity costs also vary wildly. It depends on what you need a car for.
In the USA, an AWD EV9 is $15k (or more) than an AWD Sienna (before any rebates) with a realistic highway range of 240 miles. A Sienna has twice the highway range and refuels in 5 minutes. Again, it depends on what you need a car for. Road trip a lot? A Sienna might be a better choice.
EV adoption is largely dependent on government mandates/incentives. A vocal segment of Americans feels that's not something Uncle Sam should be involved in. That's hard to overcome.

 

[Cranky Canuck]

Electric fuel savings are real, but only if you charge at home. If you are dependent on high-speed charging, the savings evaporate. Car and Driver road tripped a Rivian: "Our most extreme road trip was a 24-hour run from our Michigan office to IMSA's 24-hour endurance race at Daytona International Speedway more than 1000 miles away in Florida. We made seven stops to recharge the battery pack and spent nearly eight and a half hours DC fast-charging at a cost of $317, one way. Fuel for a gas vehicle getting 15 mpg at $4 per gallon would have cost $289." Admittedly, Rivians are not the most efficient EVs on the road. Electricity costs also vary wildly. It depends on what you need a car for.
In the USA, an AWD EV9 is $15k (or more) than an AWD Sienna (before any rebates) with a realistic highway range of 240 miles. A Sienna has twice the highway range and refuels in 5 minutes. Again, it depends on what you need a car for. Road trip a lot? A Sienna might be a better choice.
EV adoption is largely dependent on government mandates/incentives. A vocal segment of Americans feels that's not something Uncle Sam should be involved in. That's hard to overcome.

What you say about charging is true but again, the overwhelming majority of EV owners charge at home the vast majority of the time. EV drivers don't use fast chargers like combustion owners use gas stations. It's not a comparable metric. We only use fast chargers on road trips which isn't a weekly thing. It's not even a monthly thing. Pretty much all EV owners including those living in multi-unit residential buildings use much cheaper level 2 charging for their daily EV driving. Extrapolating the costs of a single road trip to pretend it's representative of daily EV ownership is misleading. Also, a 24-hour 1000 mile cannon ball run is not how most people (or anyone?) actually road trips. It's cherry picking an extreme situation to give a desired result.

Range isn't everything, and having owned EVs for nearly a decade now I can say that people are overly focused on the number but it has almost no practical bearing in the real world. Same with "refuelling time". Irrelevant. To people who've never lived with an EV I can absolutely understand how they seem like big deals but owning an EV that you mostly refill at home changes your mindset about range and time to charge. I think the biggest hurdle to adoption is actually that, getting people out of the fossil mindset and onto something different.

To me now owning a combustion car is a big hassle. I can't refuel it at home, a full tank of gas is way more expensive than a full charge, I have to go out of my way to a special building once or twice a week to get the expensive gas whereas with my EV I just plug in once a week when I get home (or whenever I want). On road trips the stop times are the same because I used to buy gas, then go use the restroom and eat lunch but now I can do the "refilling" at the same time as the other stuff. The overall stop time is about the same, just a different order of operations.

It's just a different way of thinking.

And there is no such thing as an "EV mandate". That is oil industry fear propaganda that has been surprisingly effective! There is no government law that will prevent you from buying a combustion car in the future. I do wonder how that vocal segment of Americans feel about Uncle Sam giving away their tax money to already rich oil companies? Maybe they should look into oil subsidies, I think those are a lot higher than any EV subsidy has ever been.

 

[Chuckles]

Nothing I said was misleading. I'm demonstrating why some Americans don't think an EV is right for them. No one in my family or peer group is interested in an EV for the reasons I stated. Long highway drives are a reality for many Americans. Until EVs can match or surpass ICE for range and refueling, there will be resistance. I've been hyping the benefits of EVs to my brother and his wife for years. They have at least 6 trips a year of 600-700 miles. They won't consider an EV if it means altering their routine. It's a non-starter. They aren't alone. As far as government mandates go, I was referring to worldwide (I also mentioned incentives in the same sentence). There are EV mandates around the world. Doesn't Canada have a 2035 mandate? Is there a country with a high EV adoption rate that accomplished it without government incentives or mandates? No, there isn't. That's what people take issue with.

 

[Cranky Canuck]

Nothing I said was misleading. I'm demonstrating why some Americans don't think an EV is right for them. No one in my family or peer group is interested in an EV for the reasons I stated. Long highway drives are a reality for many Americans. Until EVs can match or surpass ICE for range and refueling, there will be resistance. I've been hyping the benefits of EVs to my brother and his wife for years. They have at least 6 trips a year of 600-700 miles. They won't consider an EV if it means altering their routine. It's a non-starter. They aren't alone. As far as government mandates go, I was referring to worldwide (I also mentioned incentives in the same sentence). There are EV mandates around the world. Doesn't Canada have a 2035 mandate? Is there a country with a high EV adoption rate that accomplished it without government incentives or mandates? No, there isn't. That's what people take issue with.

No we don't have an EV mandate. If you ask right-wing pundits they'll tell you we do but what we actually have is a requirement for car companies to sell more EVs by 2035. There's no requirement for them to stop selling combustion cars by that date and there's no prohibition on anyone buying a combustion car after that date, it's just a requirement for automakers to provide enough EVs in 2035 to meet demand.

Without such a law, companies like Toyota could slow-walk their EV plans or not provide any EVs to the market at all. With the requirement it means that if laggards like Toyota want to keep selling vehicles in Canada they also need to sell enough EVs to meet demand. EV sales have historically always been limited by supply constraints. The limiting factor to market share growth is limited EV supply.

I'm just curious why people take issue with EV subsidies but seem perfectly fine with oil subsidies. Compared to the subsidies the oil industry gets EV subsidies are a rounding error.

 

[Chuckles]

No we don't have an EV mandate. If you ask right-wing pundits they'll tell you we do but what we actually have is a requirement for car companies to sell more EVs by 2035. There's no requirement for them to stop selling combustion cars by that date and there's no prohibition on anyone buying a combustion car after that date, it's just a requirement for automakers to provide enough EVs in 2035 to meet demand.

Without such a law, companies like Toyota could slow-walk their EV plans or not provide any EVs to the market at all. With the requirement it means that if laggards like Toyota want to keep selling vehicles in Canada they also need to sell enough EVs to meet demand. EV sales have historically always been limited by supply constraints. The limiting factor to market share growth is limited EV supply.

I'm just curious why people take issue with EV subsidies but seem perfectly fine with oil subsidies. Compared to the subsidies the oil industry gets EV subsidies are a rounding error.

Electricity generated by coal, nuclear, and hydro are also subsidized by the government. And solar and wind are also subsidized by the government. It seems like all energy is subsidized by the US Goverment in some way. Pick your poison.

 

[R1TVT]

Electric fuel savings are real, but only if you charge at home. If you are dependent on high-speed charging, the savings evaporate. Car and Driver road tripped a Rivian: "Our most extreme road trip was a 24-hour run from our Michigan office to IMSA's 24-hour endurance race at Daytona International Speedway more than 1000 miles away in Florida. We made seven stops to recharge the battery pack and spent nearly eight and a half hours DC fast-charging at a cost of $317, one way. Fuel for a gas vehicle getting 15 mpg at $4 per gallon would have cost $289." Admittedly, Rivians are not the most efficient EVs on the road. Electricity costs also vary wildly. It depends on what you need a car for.
In the USA, an AWD EV9 is $15k (or more) than an AWD Sienna (before any rebates) with a realistic highway range of 240 miles. A Sienna has twice the highway range and refuels in 5 minutes. Again, it depends on what you need a car for. Road trip a lot? A Sienna might be a better choice.
EV adoption is largely dependent on government mandates/incentives. A vocal segment of Americans feels that's not something Uncle Sam should be involved in. That's hard to overcome.

Seriously - this charging cost FUD is a joke. When you factor in L1 and L2 charging sessions (THE MAJORITY of all charging you do with an EV), and even add in a bunch of long roadtrips with DCFC's, there is simply no comparison. EV's will always be way cheaper compared to ICE when comparing gas to electricity. If you are a home owner and add solar, it will be even cheaper still.

Here's a real world example of a comparison between ICE and EV pulled from my own Electrify America app, based on charging my Quad Motor R1T with 20" wheels and AT tires (same as in the C&D article): Assuming an avg efficiency of 2.1 mi/kWh and using that comparison figure of 15mpg in an ICE truck with charging occurring at an EA DCFC station. With my EA membership (screenshot attached) I pay on average $0.42 per kWh at EA, and have added 1,701 kWh charging at their DCFC's.

So, since opening my account, here's what that cost would look like on average compared to ICE:

Total distance = 1,701 kWh × 2.1 mi/kWhTotal distance = 3,572.1 miles
Using the EA electricity rate of $0.42 per kWh: Total cost = Energy needed × Cost per kWh
RIVIAN R1T Total cost = 1,701 kWh × $0.42/kWhTotal cost = $714.42
ICE Gallons needed = Total distance ÷ MPG Gallons needed = 3,572.1 miles ÷ 15 MPG
Gallons needed = 238.14 gallons
ICE Total cost = Gallons needed × Price per gallonTotal cost = 238.14 gallons × $4/gallon
ICE Total cost = $952.56

Total savings in R1T over ICE truck = $239.14 over 3,572 miles.

I view ALL of this as a wash by the way... The driving experience, the fact that I am not burning gas, the fact that I only do long road trips 6 or 7 times / year, coupled with the fact that I AM CHARGING AT HOME 95% of the time (huge convenience)... Its all so good that I don't even care if I paid the same $$$ for my electrons on a long road trip. You can do it for less. It is purely based on the efficiency number and how much you pay for electrons:

Electricity generated by coal, nuclear, and hydro are also subsidized by the government. And solar and wind are also subsidized by the government. It seems like all energy is subsidized by the US Goverment in some way. Pick your poison.

Then you should eliminate that from the discussion - particularly since there is no "EV Mandate"

 

[J Alynn]

Nothing I said was misleading. I'm demonstrating why some Americans don't think an EV is right for them. No one in my family or peer group is interested in an EV for the reasons I stated. Long highway drives are a reality for many Americans. Until EVs can match or surpass ICE for range and refueling, there will be resistance. I've been hyping the benefits of EVs to my brother and his wife for years. They have at least 6 trips a year of 600-700 miles. They won't consider an EV if it means altering their routine. It's a non-starter. They aren't alone. As far as government mandates go, I was referring to worldwide (I also mentioned incentives in the same sentence). There are EV mandates around the world. Doesn't Canada have a 2035 mandate? Is there a country with a high EV adoption rate that accomplished it without government incentives or mandates? No, there isn't. That's what people take issue with.

I would argue incentives-ICE vehicles are always being incentivized per the manufacturer. The higher costs of EVs isn’t the vehicle cost but the R&D and initially battery costs which are more competitive these days. Seeing GMC offer incentives is because they gambled on their most expensive batch of vehicles. Unless you create a highly desirable EV-ie… the Hyundai Ioniq 5 or a Scout it’s tougher for adoption but with the cooler vehicles the demand far out weighs the supply.