Self-driving integration with Open Pilot.

[THil08]

Then you might not want to use Google maps, Android auto or apple carplay or your cell phone for that matter because almost everything in there is third party.

Never is a very definitive statement. Not really sure what you mean by your analogy with your phone use. It doesn't make any sense. That's not how self-driving technology works. And your phone if you have the latest and greatest is probably way more powerful than the current systems in vehicles that are doing driving assist at full self-driving. The systems in a car don't have to worry about changing the radio and doing all the other things that we do. That's what we're there for. The systems just have to worry about controlling the car in a safe way.

You need a joint or something, you’re way to tense on here loosen up bruh.

Also I don’t know what the hell you point is about maps and stuff, that’s not putting life into a computer that’s driving me. I’m the one in control and alert not some camera. And everything I mentioned in my opinion on FSD must have went over your head. FSD is just a massive out reach that will never happen like what @Cranky Canuck said about FSD and what really is need for it. Level 2/+ is the most we will see for a long time until everything improves by ALOT.

 

[J Alynn]

You're right, it wouldn't be a very good system if it didn't. Shouldn't be a problem with today's technology. I think the only restrictions are as good as the humans developing it these days. If they are good the system will be good. If they thought about these things and the programming is there to deal with them it should work. If they haven't well then it won't. And that's why you're there to take over.

But there in lies the concern. If you don’t HAVE to be attentive-sure, you can plaster warnings everywhere but look at all the idiots in teslas that filmed themselves for YouTube. If it does fail you may not be able to react and then people die. People don’t pay attention now and actually need to handle the car. Can only imagine all those people completely disengaged. You can disclaim all you want but a life is a life. Imagine when people start using them when intoxicated and something happens because they can’t react. Guarantee you SM sales plummet a month after that happens. Too much risk for not enough gain or need. put up cattle shoots and designate an FSD lane on major highways and I can live with that. The ultimate commuter lane. I’ve always said-there are drivers and there are commuters.

 

[THil08]

I think the first thing to appreciate in order to understand why I think FSD is mostly BS is that AI's aren't all that smart. Wow, I know that was a lot of initialisms but bear with me. In order for a Full-Self Driving system to work as Elon and his weirdo followers keep insisting it will, we need to have a "General Purpose" Artificial Intelligence - think HAL 9000 or the AI from Ex Machina. Thanks to science fiction I think most people have a basic understanding of what a GPAI can and should be. It's essentially an AI that can solve problems on its own in a creative way, like a human. We can encounter novel situations and come up with creative solutions to those situations based on our past experiences even though we might not have ever been in that situation before.

So when people hear "AI" that's what they kind of assume. But that's not what out AI actually is. Current AI is hyped so that people believe it's HAL but it's really more just a monkey-see-monkey-do type thing. They aren't intelligent. They aren't creative. They can only solve problems they've seen before and if they encounter something new they might try a solution but there's not logic behind it other than an attempt to fit the new situation into a known box. AI can't problem solve like you and I can. They can't think creatively. And that's fine, so long as the universe of variables that the AI will encounter is known and catalogued.

Unfortunately for AIs though, the list of variables out in the world on the road is nearly infinite. There's no practical way to train an AI to see every single situation it will ever encounter. We can approximate things, sure, that's what Waymo does. But that's also why Waymo geo-fences their robotaxis into certain areas. It's a way to limit variables and to give their AI the highest probably of successfully experiencing the same situations. And even then it's not perfect, it's barely good enough.

So no, FSD is BS, at least the way Elon is talking about it. AI's are pretty dumb and benefit from a TON of hype but don't believe it. Anyone who's ever tried to use an AI can tell you they aren't that smart and they make a lot of mistakes. Humanity is so far from a GP-AI breakthrough we don't even know what the path to one looks like. Scout is definitely making the right call here.

AI is just a massive glorified web browser at this point in time. All your points are valid. Beside a few point on Elon even though he’s great at lying to get a product bought by millions. And his idea of FSD is highly questionable since it’s a low chance it happens in a few years since like what you said it been “next year FSD will be released”.

 

[MicroBiom]

Take the abrasiveness down a few notches and perhaps I’ll reply to you.

I've been told before that I have no empathy, am abrasive or am like a stone. It's just my personality and how I communicate I guess. My intent is just discussion with facts and opinions based on facts. I try to keep emotion completely out of it. Maybe that's why it seems so "abrasive"? So, I am not trying to be abrasive.

 

[MicroBiom]

But there in lies the concern. If you don’t HAVE to be attentive-sure, you can plaster warnings everywhere but look at all the idiots in teslas that filmed themselves for YouTube. If it does fail you may not be able to react and then people die. People don’t pay attention now and actually need to handle the car. Can only imagine all those people completely disengaged. You can disclaim all you want but a life is a life. Imagine when people start using them when intoxicated and something happens because they can’t react. Guarantee you SM sales plummet a month after that happens. Too much risk for not enough gain or need. put up cattle shoots and designate an FSD lane on major highways and I can live with that. The ultimate commuter lane. I’ve always said-there are drivers and there are commuters.

So this would be an argument for people not to drive and for full self-driving to have total control over every vehicle. And this is actually the argument people make for that. I'm not for all that. Just yet anyway maybe that might change I don't know. Ha ha when I was younger I said there's no way I would have a self-driving vehicle because I like to drive. Now that I'm older and I drive so much I don't like to drive. I would rather have the car drive for me. Things change.

People are definitely going to do whatever they're going to do. Unfortunately these are the realities.

 

[MicroBiom]

The problem with that comparison is that is CarPlay fails you lose a connection, turn around and back track. If FSD Comma fails people/lives can be lost. Thats why car companies can chance CarPlay and integrate. People complain a lot about CarPlay connection issues, etc. but your phone is still there as back up. If Comma or third party file it can be catastrophic. That’s where I see the biggest problem. SM won’t Guinea pig new battery tech and I highly doubt until it’s 100% proven successful with actuaries having to pre determine loss of life pay outs that a major car manufacturer will consider gambling. Visionary efforts are great until loss of life occurs and if the tech isn’t crucial to daily life then it’s just not worth the risk

Unfortunately they do these things everyday. People are dying everyday because of bad manufacturing and bad engineering. They just usually aren't held accountable. Boeing is a perfect example of that at the moment. There are many lawsuits right now against Ford for bad design that have caused accidents. There have been many against lots of manufacturers for doing exactly the things you're saying that they won't do. But it is actually what they do. They try to get an edge on development. They will claim that the ones who don't do this get left behind and don't exist anymore. Maybe it's true. You can put checks and balances in that prevent or reduce those things from happening. Working with something that's open source doesn't mean you have to give them full control. You can still control what's allowed to operate in your vehicles and what's not. If that makes any sense. It's not an All or nothing thing. I think it's just a smarter strategy overall. Takes the pressure off of you as a developer or car manufacturer to do everything. You can use the pool of information out there and select the bits and pieces that you choose to use.

 

[Scoutsie]

I've been told before that I have no empathy, am abrasive or am like a stone. It's just my personality and how I communicate I guess. My intent is just discussion with facts and opinions based on facts. I try to keep emotion completely out of it. Maybe that's why it seems so "abrasive"? So, I am not trying to be abrasive.

Thank you for explaining. Humans have emotions, and I don’t dig automation in cars because there’s a loss of control. I can control my actions. I can’t account for other drivers.

I feel like I’ve given an answer (several answers) that should be sufficient input for you to get the hint that we now agree to disagree. I get the cold rock thing and I also get being obtuse and oblivious to the discomfort of others: I worked with scientists and engineers (which I am not) for 20 years. I understand the personality type you’re describing quite well. I come here to have lighthearted chats about cars, not to feel like I’m being browbeaten because I don’t like to use cruise control. You don’t know me and I don’t know you! You don’t know my story any more than I know yours. I don’t know if self-driving cars is your niche interest or what, but I’m saying this as kindly as I can: if you’re going to stick around, I’m going to suggest that you find the next topic that you want to discuss. This one’s cooked pretty well.

 

[MicroBiom]

You need a joint or something, you’re way to tense on here loosen up bruh.

Also I don’t know what the hell you point is about maps and stuff, that’s not putting life into a computer that’s driving me. I’m the one in control and alert not some camera. And everything I mentioned in my opinion on FSD must have went over your head. FSD is just a massive out reach that will never happen like what @Cranky Canuck said about FSD and what really is need for it. Level 2/+ is the most we will see for a long time until everything improves by ALOT.

Like I responded to someone else. I try not to let my emotion get involved at all that would be very ugly. Ha ha so I come off pretty dry,, intense straightforward. I understand. A joint would be bad it would let the emotion take over. And then it would just be all nonsense. Ha ha ha ha

I think you vastly underestimate the progression of technology. I think the majority of people are going to be very surprised here over the next couple years. And actually it's quite scary what's happening with AI. But talking about that would bring an emotional response for sure. So I'm not going to do that. Ha ha

 

[MicroBiom]

Thank you for explaining. Humans have emotions, and I don’t dig automation in cars because there’s a loss of control. I can control my actions. I can’t account for other drivers.

I feel like I’ve given an answer (several answers) that should be sufficient input for you to get the hint that we now agree to disagree. I get the cold rock thing and I also get being obtuse and oblivious to the discomfort of others: I worked with scientists and engineers (which I am not) for 20 years. I understand the personality type you’re describing quite well. I come here to have lighthearted chats about cars, not to feel like I’m being browbeaten because I don’t like to use cruise control. You don’t know me and I don’t know you! You don’t know my story any more than I know yours. I don’t know if self-driving cars is your niche interest or what, but I’m saying this as kindly as I can: if you’re going to stick around, I’m going to suggest that you find the next topic that you want to discuss. This one’s cooked pretty well.

My original post was really about my thoughts on the future and how OEMs specifically Scott motors should consider talking to a third party vendor to save time, money and have faster integration on driver assist or full self driving, whatever people want to call it. The thread seems to have turned into a few people not trusting the technology or even wanting to use it. Even some saying it shouldn't be included because they don't want it.

What I have taken by replies to this post. Some people seem to have a lot of fear in place for change and progression. There is fear in place because of lack of experience and knowledge about how these systems actually operate. Fear of trust in technology. Potentially trust in a manufacturer (I personally don't understand that). And some sort of strange sense of requirement or mandate to use these technologies, when in reality it's 100% optional. There is an on and off button.

Whether I agree or not with where the direction of this thread has gone. I believe it's good discourse, especially on a manufacturer's form so they can see what people's concerns are. And they have the ability to address those concerns over time. So overall, I think it's a net positive.

 

[04Ram2500Hemi]

After 5 pages all I keep thinking is can I just have regular cruise and adaptive cruise? And maybe all of us go out for a beer? But maybe that’s just me?

 

[J Alynn]

After 5 pages all I keep thinking is can I just have regular cruise and adaptive cruise? And maybe all of us go out for a beer? But maybe that’s just me?

Well said. Good time to wonder from this thread and not leave bread crumbs to find my way back

 

[04Ram2500Hemi]

Well said. Good time to wonder from this thread and not leave bread crumbs to find my way back

I’ll meet ya at the bar. First round is on me!

 

[THil08]

I’ll do the second round but I don’t drink. I’ll take a Coke.

 

[R1TVT]

No I read your post about Rivian and how they're doing self-driving. I watched the video that you posted. Which is how everyone else is doing self-driving. And when I say self-driving, I mean all drivers Assistance programs including full self-driving. And they are still behind compared to other OEMs and Open Pilot. I feel that there is a better option and that things will eventually move to third party. Just like Android Auto and Apple Maps. Why waste the time resources and money developing and maintaining something when someone else is already doing it. And they are doing that one thing very well. Just like, why would you put an OEM navigation system in a vehicle when everyone uses Android Auto and Apple Maps for the most part. Ford's taking their navigation system out of their vehicles now because of this. I feel that's probably going to be the way of the future. And why not it saves you a ton of money as an OEM. I think that Open Pilot is a great idea that's why I reference them. Is there something better right now? I don't know. I don't think so. It can easily have checks and balances put in place if you need be. I just received my Comma 3X device to put in my F-150 today. And if I buy a scout later and it doesn't perform the way I want to as far as self-driving goes. I can order a wiring harness when they develop it which will be quickly and put the comma 3x in that.

I'm not sure what you mean by you say my post is suspect? Are you developing some sort of conspiracy theory? Ha Ha. I think the majority of scout purchasers are probably going to be looking for a vehicle that was promised at a price that was promised at, as far as pre-orders go. Purchasers once the vehicles on the market are all going to be looking for something that's competitive in the market as far as offerings at a price they're willing to pay. Just like any other vehicle. I think scout has done a very good job at selling a brand and a culture for their brand, to get started. At the end of the day the majority of people buying scouts are going to be people that are looking for, probably most important these days, is a good reliable vehicle for a good price. Those are the people that are going to sustain the company. You can't sustain a multibillion dollar company in a niche market. I'm sure VW is very aware of that.

Sure, I guess there is a difference in my mind between what you perceive as an OEM "being behind" with tech (as you stated), and what might be considered as "intentional" based on numerous factors. My guess is that Scout is being intentional in their approach to autonomy.

I should also clarify that my statement about open source was related to any OEM implementing a fully 3rd party open source code base for their entire system (natively). Of course, open source components may be leveraged within a native platform that is fully under the control of the OEM, but has any OEM taken this comma.ai autopilot thing and used it natively as their FSD OS?

My other point was that Scout can potentially leverage the Rivian relationship to do exactly what you suggest (which we agree on): gain a development head-start, save development dollars, and bring L2+ to market quickly (with future OTA's that could enhance autonomous features over time, based on Scout's own implementation and HW).

Finally, my impression is that Scout is not targeting a niche market: