Manual Control of 4x4 system instead of silly GOAT like modes

[CarTechGeek]

Please treat buyers like adults when it comes to controlling the subsystems when off-road.

I've always disliked mode based control like Ford "GOAT" modes (I hate them on cameras too), and this was brought home when I watched a video comparing some 2 door 4x4s. When it got the Ford, they were basically cycling through GOAT modes trying to get it to behave. If you must have modes, have one be manual, and remember you were using manual the last time...

When you push a Button for Off-road, bring up a screen with the important parameters:

1: Accelerator Pedal Mapping. This is where you are basically choosing 4 High, or 4 Low - 4 High is the normal default mode. There is no need for 2WD on an EV since there is no driveline binding. 4 Low is the important one. It drops the speed range down to about 25 MPH max, and give more fine grained crawl control. It also enables control over diff locks, and Sway bar disconnects.

2: Differential Locks. Only enabled in "4 Low".

3: Sway Bar disconnect. Only enabled in "4 Low".

4: Traction Control.

• 0 - Off - Completely Off (aside from driveline protection) - Perhaps Only in "4 low".
• 1 - cross axle Brake Torque Distribution Only - Basically this just an inferior substitute for diff lockers - not everyone will have them. large amount of spin still allowed if it's both wheels on an axle.
• 2 - Only moderate amount of spin allowed.
• 3 - Spin tightly controlled.

5: Trail Crawl Control. Allow automated slow progress mode 1-10 MPH.


IMO, this is MUCH better than a bunch of silly modes (sand, mud and ruts, rocks, etc...) that simply create mystery about what the drive systems are doing. Just let people control what they want the systems to do directly.

 

[R1TVT]

In "theory" yes, but you would likely need to reach a certain SOC before driving off again (adding time) if you were to draw the battery down to very low SOC (just guessing here b/c we don't know those details yet).

But charging is easy - one of the first things I did when I got my truck was go out to a DCFC to see how it would work. I also downloaded a bunch of Apps to reduce any time needed to charge (ABRP, EVGO, Chargepoint, Electrify America, PlugShare, EV Connect, Tesla, etc.). The learning part of this is actually really interesting - at least it was to me.

 

[cyure]

In "theory" yes, but you would likely need to reach a certain SOC before driving off again (adding time) if you were to draw the battery down to very low SOC (just guessing here b/c we don't know those details yet).

But charging is easy - one of the first things I did when I got my truck was go out to a DCFC to see how it would work. I also downloaded a bunch of Apps to reduce any time needed to charge (ABRP, EVGO, Chargepoint, Electrify America, PlugShare, EV Connect, Tesla, etc.). The learning part of this is actually really interesting - at least it was to me.

Oh I’m very interested to learn. Thank you very much! It’s 800 miles to Blythwood for me so it would only be a couple charges I would imagine. It just seems intimidating never having done it before.

 

[AlanL]

Agreed, and I don't see these things as being mutually exclusive either. If you have modes that are based on a set of preferences you should be able select individual items in SETTINGS or alter some settings within a given "mode" for example. One way to think about "modes" is as a shortcut to something you might frequently use. For me, that is typically going from ALL-PURPOSE mode to SNOW MODE in my truck...

This is a great idea, modes as a named collection of settings. Defaults are set at the factory, they can be tweaked by the user and remembered. Experts can set what they want. Novices can experiment to learn what the various settings do.

 

[AlanL]

Okay now I have a question. I really want to do factory pick up. Unless something changes, I’m planning on getting the Harvester. When driving home if I’m not comfortable yet charging, can I make it home the 800 miles just stoping to fill up the Harvester?

They haven't said so super clearly but that is the implication, and the most sensible/useful approach. In Harvester mode the generator runs as needed to keep the battery in a reasonable SOC, you need the battery for full power. The generator needs to be big enough to do that over typical long distance driving. It does not take much power to move on the flat, even the biggest grades are not all that long.. Then you can do laps across the country forever just buying gas. I made some estimates from what we know and if you drove down to 1/4 tank then refilled you might get a bit over 250 miles between stops.

 

[AlanL]

Oh I’m very interested to learn. Thank you very much! It’s 800 miles to Blythwood for me so it would only be a couple charges I would imagine. It just seems intimidating never having done it before.

In the same estimates I mentioned above I came up with just over 200 miles between charging the BEV, driving from 80% to 20% then recharging to 80%. The point there is to not drive down too close to zero and recharge in the portion of the charging curve where you actually get fast charging. Even then it won't be high input all the way to 80%.

The Silverado EV is one of the current trucks than can take high input. I found a chart of a 0% to 100% test yesterday, it had three clear segments. There was some waver in each segment, but each was reasonably close to straight for the sake of understanding. From 0% to about 25% they got about 350 kW of input. From 25% to 75% there was a steady drop from 350 kW down to 220 kW. From 75% to 100% there was a steep drop from 220 kW down to 20 kW. Just from 75% to 80% it dropped to 120 kW.

We will need to wait to see a real Scout charging curve to see what it does. So far though it seems that most EVs have a similar shape, differing in the power levels and points of inflection.

 

[cyure]

They haven't said so super clearly but that is the implication, and the most sensible/useful approach. In Harvester mode the generator runs as needed to keep the battery in a reasonable SOC, you need the battery for full power. The generator needs to be big enough to do that over typical long distance driving. It does not take much power to move on the flat, even the biggest grades are not all that long.. Then you can do laps across the country forever just buying gas. I made some estimates from what we know and if you drove down to 1/4 tank then refilled you might get a bit over 250 miles between stops.

Thanks!

 

[cyure]

In the same estimates I mentioned above I came up with just over 200 miles between charging the BEV, driving from 80% to 20% then recharging to 80%. The point there is to not drive down too close to zero and recharge in the portion of the charging curve where you actually get fast charging. Even then it won't be high input all the way to 80%.

The Silverado EV is one of the current trucks than can take high input. I found a chart of a 0% to 100% test yesterday, it had three clear segments. There was some waver in each segment, but each was reasonably close to straight for the sake of understanding. From 0% to about 25% they got about 350 kW of input. From 25% to 75% there was a steady drop from 350 kW down to 220 kW. From 75% to 100% there was a steep drop from 220 kW down to 20 kW. Just from 75% to 80% it dropped to 120 kW.

We will need to wait to see a real Scout charging curve to see what it does. So far though it seems that most EVs have a similar shape, differing in the power levels and points of inflection.

All these numbers seem complicated but I am confident once I get my hands on it it’s not going to be as difficult as I’m imagining.

 

[AlanL]

All these numbers seem complicated but I am confident once I get my hands on it it’s not going to be as difficult as I’m imagining.

Daunting at first, the big thing is to understand that there is a charging curve and how to adapt to it. I'm sure once Scouts start shipping we will see YouTube videos of charging tests. The Silverado EV test is in a YouTube video by Out of Spec Reviews, posted in April 2024. The title starts "Charging Monster! Silverado EV DC Fast Charges ...". Only 9 minutes long, worth a watch. Sorry, I'm a computer security bigot and won't post links in public forums if I can describe it easily.

 

[cyure]

Daunting at first, the big thing is to understand that there is a charging curve and how to adapt to it. I'm sure once Scouts start shipping we will see YouTube videos of charging tests. The Silverado EV test is in a YouTube video by Out of Spec Reviews, posted in April 2024. The title starts "Charging Monster! Silverado EV DC Fast Charges ...". Only 9 minutes long, worth a watch. Sorry, I'm a computer security bigot and won't post links in public forums if I can describe it easily.

No worries, I’ll definitely go find it. My husband is downloading Scout related videos for me so i have them all in one place and I’ll add this one to the mix. Thanks!

 

[AlanL]

No worries, I’ll definitely go find it. My husband is downloading Scout related videos for me so i have them all in one place and I’ll add this one to the mix. Thanks!

I've found three great interview videos also. Besides the well known Motor Trend interview I found another with Scott Keogh and one with Chris Benjamin. Let me know if you don't have them and I'll dig up references. I get enthused binging on Scout info, ignoring all politics.

 

[cyure]

I've found three great interview videos also. Besides the well known Motor Trend interview I found another with Scott Keogh and one with Chris Benjamin. Let me know if you don't have them and I'll dig up references. I get enthused binging on Scout info, ignoring all politics.

Same if you have any others I may not be aware of let me know. I have quite a few and just start them playing and let them run. It’s a nice distraction from everything (waves hands in the air).

 

[cyure]

I've found three great interview videos also. Besides the well known Motor Trend interview I found another with Scott Keogh and one with Chris Benjamin. Let me know if you don't have them and I'll dig up references. I get enthused binging on Scout info, ignoring all politics.

I like all the ones from CES too. Those are good if you don’t have them.

 

[J Alynn]

Okay now I have a question. I really want to do factory pick up. Unless something changes, I’m planning on getting the Harvester. When driving home if I’m not comfortable yet charging, can I make it home the 800 miles just stoping to fill up the Harvester?

I am sincerely hoping that part of the delivery experience will be clearly showing the charging process. Even if they have a dummy charger and a mock vehicle to show steps and even payment. My buddy did a quick review with his Mach-e but didn’t get detailed. I don’t think it’s as hard as we think. Basically a nozzle and a port-much like gas. But I want to know too

 

[R1TVT]

It's not hard. In many cases, you don't need to do anything other than open the charge port door and plug in. Some experiences require an app and a payment credential to be loaded into the digital wallet in the app. Some experiences might want you to scan a QR code on the charger. they can all be a little different but all are intuitive and stations provide basic instructions on the charger too.

 

[Chavannigans]

All these numbers seem complicated but I am confident once I get my hands on it it’s not going to be as difficult as I’m imagining.

The Harvester will be using an LFP battery, and I believe the Chevy uses a NMC battery. They have have different characteristics when it comes to charging speeds and durability.

LFP batteries tend to charge faster since they arent bothered by heat soak as much as NMC batteries are.

LFP batteries are also more forgiving when it comes to charging them to 100% and running them down to single digits.

They are also going to be cheaper to replace down the road.

I think we will see VERY fast top offs for the Harvester batteries due to their chemistry and overall smaller size.

Daunting at first, the big thing is to understand that there is a charging curve and how to adapt to it. I'm sure once Scouts start shipping we will see YouTube videos of charging tests. The Silverado EV test is in a YouTube video by Out of Spec Reviews, posted in April 2024. The title starts "Charging Monster! Silverado EV DC Fast Charges ...". Only 9 minutes long, worth a watch. Sorry, I'm a computer security bigot and won't post links in public forums if I can describe it easily.

Most Out Of Spec Review videos are 2 hours, so that 9 minute one is just a YouTube Short for their channel lol

 

[J Alynn]

This is a great idea, modes as a named collection of settings. Defaults are set at the factory, they can be tweaked by the user and remembered. Experts can set what they want. Novices can experiment to learn what the various settings do.

Great idea and collaboration in coming up with this statement. This is worth SM seeing as it would benefit everyone rather than just a subcategory of each type. ️

 

[04Ram2500Hemi]

Right, but in an EV truck using Snow Mode also is a short-cut to reduced Regen PLUS throttle response, which is important in an EV. It's just a grouping of configurations setting that would be commonly used, based on conditions. So, you could get there with multiple settings changes, or you can use the shortcut for SNOW MODE. Either way the driving experience would be the same.

The only other thing you get when using a shortcut like that (potentially, and based on implementation) is an icon that lets you know you are actually in SNOW MODE. Most implementations like this also save that mode for your next drive, so if you stop and start again in a snowstorm, you would already be in SNOW MODE.

I understand that. In my truck, “Snow Mode” changes throttle response, and alters the traction control (as well as “delivers the right amount of power for optimal launch performance on both snowy and icy conditions” - so that’s cool I guess). My point is, I know how my truck will respond in a normal mode, therefor I know how to use the truck when road conditions turn bad. I don’t want to have to learn how to use the throttle, or worry about some traction control nanny now acting different. I have to believe an EV is the same. Once I understand how it works in “Normal Mode” I don’t want to learn how to drive again in a different setting. If somebody else wants a different mode that’s fine, but I’m good without it. Again, let me turn off traction control and spin the tires in deep snow when I want/need to. Don’t kill the power and throttle response because you think you know better.

 

[AlanL]

The Harvester will be using an LFP battery, and I believe the Chevy uses a NMC battery. They have have different characteristics when it comes to charging speeds and durability.

LFP batteries tend to charge faster since they arent bothered by heat soak as much as NMC batteries are.

LFP batteries are also more forgiving when it comes to charging them to 100% and running them down to single digits.

They are also going to be cheaper to replace down the road.

I think we will see VERY fast top offs for the Harvester batteries due to their chemistry and overall smaller size.


Most Out Of Spec Review videos are 2 hours, so that 9 minute one is just a YouTube Short for their channel lol

I was thinking more of comparing the BEV to the Silverado. Not sure what the BEV is but it is not LFP. The 9 minute video is just talking about the 0 to 100 charging curve. It is the only curve I’ve seen of a vehicle capable of 350 kW input.

 

[R1TVT]

I understand that. In my truck, “Snow Mode” changes throttle response, and alters the traction control (as well as “delivers the right amount of power for optimal launch performance on both snowy and icy conditions” - so that’s cool I guess). My point is, I know how my truck will respond in a normal mode, therefor I know how to use the truck when road conditions turn bad. I don’t want to have to learn how to use the throttle, or worry about some traction control nanny now acting different. I have to believe an EV is the same. Once I understand how it works in “Normal Mode” I don’t want to learn how to drive again in a different setting. If somebody else wants a different mode that’s fine, but I’m good without it. Again, let me turn off traction control and spin the tires in deep snow when I want/need to. Don’t kill the power and throttle response because you think you know better.

YES. I think you are agreeing with me. In any proper implementation, you should be able to adjust your settings individually and one at a time... MODES are just a shortcut to a grouping of commonly used settings. Changing settings and using a common MODE are not mutually exclusive. Learning how your truck behaves with a grouping of settings is really no different than learning how your truck behaves when changing one setting at a time.

Of course, there may be configurations that are gated by the truck when they are combined, or that may speed-restrict you (usually for very good reasons - because humans that don't know what they are doing do stupid things. They might choose a grouping off road-oriented settings, then get onto a HWY and try to drive 100MPH.

 

[TreeKiller]

Please treat buyers like adults when it comes to controlling the subsystems when off-road.

I've always disliked mode based control like Ford "GOAT" modes (I hate them on cameras too), and this was brought home when I watched a video comparing some 2 door 4x4s. When it got the Ford, they were basically cycling through GOAT modes trying to get it to behave. If you must have modes, have one be manual, and remember you were using manual the last time...

When you push a Button for Off-road, bring up a screen with the important parameters:

1: Accelerator Pedal Mapping. This is where you are basically choosing 4 High, or 4 Low - 4 High is the normal default mode. There is no need for 2WD on an EV since there is no driveline binding. 4 Low is the important one. It drops the speed range down to about 25 MPH max, and give more fine grained crawl control. It also enables control over diff locks, and Sway bar disconnects.

2: Differential Locks. Only enabled in "4 Low".

3: Sway Bar disconnect. Only enabled in "4 Low".

4: Traction Control.

• 0 - Off - Completely Off (aside from driveline protection) - Perhaps Only in "4 low".
• 1 - cross axle Brake Torque Distribution Only - Basically this just an inferior substitute for diff lockers - not everyone will have them. large amount of spin still allowed if it's both wheels on an axle.
• 2 - Only moderate amount of spin allowed.
• 3 - Spin tightly controlled.

5: Trail Crawl Control. Allow automated slow progress mode 1-10 MPH.


IMO, this is MUCH better than a bunch of silly modes (sand, mud and ruts, rocks, etc...) that simply create mystery about what the drive systems are doing. Just let people control what they want the systems to do directly.

Regarding motive power and differential lockers: My Wrangler has an Atlas II transfer case and independently selectable ARBs front and rear. This enables 2wd front, 2wd rear and 4wd. Further, it enables locked front / open rear, locked rear / open front or both axles locked. I would love to see the same flexibility in the Scout, although I know that is probably fantasy. The ability to do a front dig, while not oft utilized, sure is handy when you need to do it.