Please, No Free Fast Charging Credits

[R1TVT]

Yeah, that is a crap shoot for sure... I have done both and tend to follow WAZE down.

I do a LOT of trips to the mid-atlantic with my kids and I now have a couple of good Rivian RAN charging stops on my route to the land of lacrosse. Makes the trip a lot better once you figure out your stops and where you can get good food. I simply plan all of my charging stops on road trips around meal times, which is great b/c that is around the time when i need to charge the truck anyway.

 

[MountainDad]

Not a fan of current diesels, to much of a pain in rear end

Put a 58gal tank in the F250 & now I need lots of potty stops ?

View attachment 3344

You're in WY, right? Isn't diesel cheaper than premium and sometimes regular like it is here in CO?

I don't mind putting a few gallons of DEF in a tank every few months. It's like refilling a window washer tank. Other than that it's the same for me.

 

[MountainDad]

That's like having a 30 gallon fuel tank only being able to put 24 gallons in because the vehicle is not set up for it.
Why pay for a certain size battery, to not be able to get the full use out of it?

Yes I know, what I'm talking about doing is so BAD for the battery. Why are we tolerating this? The battery tech people need to work on this, and have chargers that are up and running, otherwise EV will die a lonely death.

They are, but physics is physics and chemistry also follows natural laws. It took over 120 years of driving to get 4 cylinder engines that produce 400hp and get over 30mpg on the Interstate.

This is what Formula E is for, actually.

 

[dleepnw]

Fair points. Considering it Scout be NACS native, having access to free Tesla SCs or Rivian Adventure Network should eliminate most of the bad charging experiences. Doesn't stop tools from being tools and charging to 100% though.

There are also folks though that don't have access to or the ability to install a L2 charger especially if they live in urban settings so having free charging credits is valuable.

 

[Rampy]

You're in WY, right? Isn't diesel cheaper than premium and sometimes regular like it is here in CO?

I don't mind putting a few gallons of DEF in a tank every few months. It's like refilling a window washer tank. Other than that it's the same for me.

Really don’t pay attention to price of diesel, the new ones are strangulated by government mandate (to include def) and that’s something I did not want to deal with. I can buy a lot of gas for the 9k a diesel costs

 

[Cranky Canuck]

That's like having a 30 gallon fuel tank only being able to put 24 gallons in because the vehicle is not set up for it.
Why pay for a certain size battery, to not be able to get the full use out of it?

Yes I know, what I'm talking about doing is so BAD for the battery. Why are we tolerating this? The battery tech people need to work on this, and have chargers that are up and running, otherwise EV will die a lonely death.

They have and are. LFP batteries (lithium-iron-phosphate) tolerate abuse much better than NCM (Nickle-cobalt-manganese) chemistries. LFP batteries are also generally cheaper so they solve a lot of problems. But as with all things there are tradeoffs and given the announced specs of these trucks it sounds to me like SM will probably be going for the NCM chemistry (which is more common in the industry). LFP can go to 100% and then down to 0% and suffer no ill-effects but they aren't as energy dense (which means the pack needs to be physically larger) and they don't provide as much power (which means you can't draw as much current from them). Given that the massive trucks will be doing 0-60 in 3.5 secs and have a 350 mile range despite being shaped like a brick tells me that SM is probably going for the more compact and powerful NCM technology in order to cram is much capacity and power into the truck as they can.

So the battery tech does already exist to do what you suggest and use the full capacity of a battery, but most EVs don't use that chemistry because people also want fast acceleration and ridiculously long range.

 

[oldgeeksguide]

My daily routine when I drive my Tacoma from MA to FL looks like this.

• Start with a full tank.
• Wheels on the road at 6:am. Drive for 5.5 hours ~300 miles
• Stop for lunch and fill the tank - this takes about 30 minutes total
• Drive for another 4 hours ~200 miles
• Arrive at my destination after 10 hours ~ 4:00 pm
• Find a gas station so that I can top up the tank, which takes less than 10 minutes.
• Dinner and bed by 8:00 pm so that I can do it again.

My guess is that a daily routine for the 1600 mile trip in an EV would look like this;

• Start off with 100% charge.
• Start the driving at 6:am. Drive for 5.5 hours ~300 miles
• Stop for lunch and charge
  • Are there DCF chargers along my intended route? If so, 30 minutes charging should get me >80%.
  • At a L2 charger, charge for 3 HOURS - which should bring the battery from 10% to ??? Guessing 80%.
• Drive for another 4 hours ~ 200 miles
• Arrive at my destination after 12.5 hours (assuming L2 Charger) ~ 6:30pm
• Dinner and bed by 9:00 pm
• Top up the battery overnight - so I am restricted to hotels that either have, or are near, L2 or DCF chargers.

What am I missing?

You might be interested in the “out of spec motoring” YouTube channel, or sister channel “out of spec reviews “, they talk a lot about charging strategies, and even have races , like Denver to Las Vegas where the key to winning is the charging strategy. Winning strategy tends to be to drive it down as low as possible, like <5%, then charge it til the charging rate starts to slow down, often unplugging at around 50%, then repeat. Other key is having a car that can charge fast; 800V system should help that.

One other thing, L2 chargers where I live are typically 7kw, maybe 11kw, but I think they can go up to about 20kw. But at 7kw, 3 hours only puts about 20kwh in your tank, probably not enough to drive another 4 hours, but YMMV. They’re great for overnight fill ups though.

 

[oldgeeksguide]

They have and are. LFP batteries (lithium-iron-phosphate) tolerate abuse much better than NCM (Nickle-cobalt-manganese) chemistries. LFP batteries are also generally cheaper so they solve a lot of problems. But as with all things there are tradeoffs and given the announced specs of these trucks it sounds to me like SM will probably be going for the NCM chemistry (which is more common in the industry). LFP can go to 100% and then down to 0% and suffer no ill-effects but they aren't as energy dense (which means the pack needs to be physically larger) and they don't provide as much power (which means you can't draw as much current from them). Given that the massive trucks will be doing 0-60 in 3.5 secs and have a 350 mile range despite being shaped like a brick tells me that SM is probably going for the more compact and powerful NCM technology in order to cram is much capacity and power into the truck as they can.

So the battery tech does already exist to do what you suggest and use the full capacity of a battery, but most EVs don't use that chemistry because people also want fast acceleration and ridiculously long range.

And if you really want to get into the weeds, YouTube channel “engineering explained” has some great videos on ev batteries.

 

[BrandonM959]

A common thing companies seem to be doing with new EVs has been to give free fast charging credits on one network or another along with the purchase of a new vehicle.

Please Scout, don't do this!

As a long time EV driver I have some insight as to why this is a terrible practice that should be stopped. What companies should do instead is give credit towards a home level 2 charger or Scout merch (if someone already has a level 2 charger).

Giving away fast charger credits inevitably leads to a bad EV experience. Firstly, the need for DC fast charging for most EV drivers is pretty rare, usually only a handful of time per year when they go on road trips so giving away fast charge credits isn't super useful to most people. The vast majority of charging is done at home on a level 2 charger and is a far superior experience, especially for new EV owners. They can wake up every day with a "full tank", it usually costs almost nothing in electricity, is super convenient, and overall makes owning an EV generally awesome.

Second, free fast charge credits promotes abuse of fast chargers. There have been many times where I rock up to a fast charger only to find some Porsche or ID4 owner sitting there charging to 100% "because it's free" even though they live locally to the charger. It makes it a bad experience for other EV drivers.

Another issue is that because fast chargers are owned by a third party, the experience can be a crapshoot especially for those new to EVs. Tesla gets away with giving out fast charging credits because it owns the charging network and infrastructure and has made the experience pretty foolproof. But other car makers including Scout must rely on third party public charging companies and most non-Tesla charging companies have a pretty inconsistent experience, espeically if the car company in question partnered with one of the less reliable networks like Electrify America. Having a new EV owner roll up to a local fast charger "because charging will be free" only to find one or more of the few stalls out of service and the others busy with people doing actual long distance trips isn't exactly the best experience for someone new to EVs.

Fast chargers are for long distance travel and it's no secret that charging infrastructure has quite a bit of room for improvement. Promoting abuse of those chargers to new EV owners won't help those owners have a great experience. At best it will be an "okay, cool. That's how fast chargers work."-type experiece. At worst it can have them so frustrated they tell their friends not to buy the product.

A must more productive and useful experience is to help them get a home charger installed. Make it super easy like Ford is currently doing with its charger. And for those who already have an EV charger (like me) maybe offer a similar value gift card for Scout aftermarket equipement or something.

Those are just my thoughts.

Excellent post! I don't own an EV but have driven them in the past for short durations (a week or less). Tesla was a great experience and had no issues charging, of finding a place to charge just as you stated. My experience for 3rd party charging network is, at best, horrible! Had a rented Silverado a few weeks ago and wanted to make sure it was "toped off" prior to returning it so I found some chargers close to me. Couldn't find the first one and drove around for about 30 minutes looking for it in a parking garage. The second location was locked behind a gate at a condo building but did find the 3rd option which was an additional 30-45 minutes of driving around. Luckily for me it was working but the charge rate was so slow, it calculated that it would take 7 hours to charge back to 100%. I would never attempt to do this with my own vehicle because it is not efficient but in order to avoid excess charges from the rental company I didn't have much of a choice. Needless to say I was there less than a minute and realized it wasn't going to get any better, I decided it wasn't worth it. Attached the charging info screenshot for a good laugh. On top of all this, the 1 charger was behind an old strip mall in a dark ally and all I could think about was my wife, mother, etc. being in the same situation and having to sit in this dark, secluded location waiting to charge. Today, the 3rd party network is a joke.

Absolutely love what Scout is (hopefully) doing and takes all the added stress (or at least most of it) away. IMO until future technology comes available to better range, distance, and cost most EV's will just sit on dealer lots. Having the ability to better charge at home or adding a range extender is the best of both worlds and the idea to put those charging credits toward a home charger would be a great move for Scout to make!

 

[Dana]

A common thing companies seem to be doing with new EVs has been to give free fast charging credits on one network or another along with the purchase of a new vehicle.

Please Scout, don't do this!

As a long time EV driver I have some insight as to why this is a terrible practice that should be stopped. What companies should do instead is give credit towards a home level 2 charger or Scout merch (if someone already has a level 2 charger).

Giving away fast charger credits inevitably leads to a bad EV experience. Firstly, the need for DC fast charging for most EV drivers is pretty rare, usually only a handful of time per year when they go on road trips so giving away fast charge credits isn't super useful to most people. The vast majority of charging is done at home on a level 2 charger and is a far superior experience, especially for new EV owners. They can wake up every day with a "full tank", it usually costs almost nothing in electricity, is super convenient, and overall makes owning an EV generally awesome.

Second, free fast charge credits promotes abuse of fast chargers. There have been many times where I rock up to a fast charger only to find some Porsche or ID4 owner sitting there charging to 100% "because it's free" even though they live locally to the charger. It makes it a bad experience for other EV drivers.

Another issue is that because fast chargers are owned by a third party, the experience can be a crapshoot especially for those new to EVs. Tesla gets away with giving out fast charging credits because it owns the charging network and infrastructure and has made the experience pretty foolproof. But other car makers including Scout must rely on third party public charging companies and most non-Tesla charging companies have a pretty inconsistent experience, espeically if the car company in question partnered with one of the less reliable networks like Electrify America. Having a new EV owner roll up to a local fast charger "because charging will be free" only to find one or more of the few stalls out of service and the others busy with people doing actual long distance trips isn't exactly the best experience for someone new to EVs.

Fast chargers are for long distance travel and it's no secret that charging infrastructure has quite a bit of room for improvement. Promoting abuse of those chargers to new EV owners won't help those owners have a great experience. At best it will be an "okay, cool. That's how fast chargers work."-type experiece. At worst it can have them so frustrated they tell their friends not to buy the product.

A must more productive and useful experience is to help them get a home charger installed. Make it super easy like Ford is currently doing with its charger. And for those who already have an EV charger (like me) maybe offer a similar value gift card for Scout aftermarket equipement or something.

Those are just my thoughts.

Agree. Including a mobile charging kit (with J1772 and a good old fashioned house plug) would be best use of funds. Everyone can use that.

 

[Dana]

No idea, I would assume any city has chargers have never paid attention before.

I’m assuming once again you can get an app that shows locations of chargers

Traveler Harvester is what I’ve reserved

It would surprise me if Scout’s nav system didn’t have option to show chargers and add as waypoint. PlugShare is about the best app for plugs…read reviews and leave reviews! ABRP isn’t too bad for route planning when I’m too lazy to go down to car but I usually have to use it in conjunction with PlugShare.

 

[MaddMatt]

OK, I'm going to take a bit of a contrarian view- my experience with "free" charging has been great!

I've never driven an EV before, so in preparation for my Scout, I took advantage of the end of year lease deals and got a very cheap two year lease on a Hyundai Ioniq5. I figured the time frame was about right, and it would give me a chance to learn about living with a BEV before the "real" truck gets here. I didn't know I was going to get two years of free charging at EA stations until we were signing the paperwork.

Having access to free charging has gone a long way towards lowering my range anxiety. For me it was pretty easy to adjust my schedule, as there happens to be an EA station at my local Target. 30 minutes on Saturday or Sunday morning is more than enough time to get a coffee, grab some groceries and put enough charge in for a week of normal driving. I have overstayed the 30 minutes a couple times, but I've driven just over 1,000 miles at an out of pocket cost of just under $20. (I just looked it up in the app).

And FYI, the Hyundai nav screen offers filters, so I just have it prioritize EA stations, and they pop up on the screen along my route, super easy. But before I figured out the filter it was crazy, it was finding all sorts of random chargers behind locked gates, etc... similar to what @BrandonM959 posted. Bit of a learning curve for me there.

The end result is that the free charging, in conjunction with basic level 1 charging at home (which I've only bothered to plug in a couple times) is that my range anxiety is greatly diminished. Depending on the state of the world when my Scout is ready, I may even give up the Harvester option, but I still have a couple years to make that decision.

So, in my opinion as a new EV driver, the free charging was a great bit of "training wheels" to help me get more comfortable with charging, and changing my outlook on EV's for the better.

 

[J Alynn]

OK, I'm going to take a bit of a contrarian view- my experience with "free" charging has been great!

I've never driven an EV before, so in preparation for my Scout, I took advantage of the end of year lease deals and got a very cheap two year lease on a Hyundai Ioniq5. I figured the time frame was about right, and it would give me a chance to learn about living with a BEV before the "real" truck gets here. I didn't know I was going to get two years of free charging at EA stations until we were signing the paperwork.

Having access to free charging has gone a long way towards lowering my range anxiety. For me it was pretty easy to adjust my schedule, as there happens to be an EA station at my local Target. 30 minutes on Saturday or Sunday morning is more than enough time to get a coffee, grab some groceries and put enough charge in for a week of normal driving. I have overstayed the 30 minutes a couple times, but I've driven just over 1,000 miles at an out of pocket cost of just under $20. (I just looked it up in the app).

And FYI, the Hyundai nav screen offers filters, so I just have it prioritize EA stations, and they pop up on the screen along my route, super easy. But before I figured out the filter it was crazy, it was finding all sorts of random chargers behind locked gates, etc... similar to what @BrandonM959 posted. Bit of a learning curve for me there.

The end result is that the free charging, in conjunction with basic level 1 charging at home (which I've only bothered to plug in a couple times) is that my range anxiety is greatly diminished. Depending on the state of the world when my Scout is ready, I may even give up the Harvester option, but I still have a couple years to make that decision.

So, in my opinion as a new EV driver, the free charging was a great bit of "training wheels" to help me get more comfortable with charging, and changing my outlook on EV's for the better.

As I’m new to EV can I ask the following question if given the choice between credits or say, a level2 home charger, would you stick with the free credits? I just think the convenience of plugging in at night then heading out in the morning would be better than dragging myself to my Target or local charger and killing 25-30 minutes of my time twice a week.
So just curious if given the option would you reconsider? What would other EV owners choose?

 

[bb00799]

As I’m new to EV can I ask the following question if given the choice between credits or say, a level2 home charger, would you stick with the free credits? I just think the convenience of plugging in at night then heading out in the morning would be better than dragging myself to my Target or local charger and killing 25-30 minutes of my time twice a week.
So just curious if given the option would you reconsider? What would other EV owners choose?

Probably a free level 2 home charger for me. Granted with the harvester I will essentially never need to fill up with gas or use any other charger for my normal driving during the week. For long road trips I would just make sure that I am topped off from the night before with charge and gas, and then at my first "long" (20+ stop) charge up.

 

[MaddMatt]

As I’m new to EV can I ask the following question if given the choice between credits or say, a level2 home charger, would you stick with the free credits? I just think the convenience of plugging in at night then heading out in the morning would be better than dragging myself to my Target or local charger and killing 25-30 minutes of my time twice a week.
So just curious if given the option would you reconsider? What would other EV owners choose?

Good question.

I think it depends on your individual situation. In my case, the Hyundai is primarily my wife's. She commutes 6 miles each way, so 12 miles per day, that's only 60 miles per week. If we start the week with 80% or more, that's more than enough charge to handle that, random errands, going out to dinner once or twice and any unexpected trips to the "city" (Denver) where my elderly mom and youngest daughter (different places, not roommates) both live.

Since I'm shopping on Saturday or Sunday mornings anyway, the only change to my life was where I park when at Target, so we've now put the installation of the Level 2 charger on the back burner. It was a priority when we bought the car, but the free charging + the Level 1 charger at home is more than sufficient for our normal lives. Since my house's old 100 amp panel is over-utilized anyway, we are going ahead with upgrading our panel to 200amp to get ready for installing a Level 2 in the garage, but holding off on the actual charger for now, it's a long, expensive run from the panel to the garage, so we are just spreading out the expense.

Back in the day when I was commuting 30 miles each way, I think I would have opt'd for the Level 2 charger at home. Plug it in each night and be ready for your day with no concerns.

In practice I've found our basic Level 1 charger adds about 1% per hour, but I haven't bothered to calculate how many miles that might be. Depending on your daily commute adding 10-12% each night on a level 1 may get it done.

 

[J Alynn]

Good question.

I think it depends on your individual situation. In my case, the Hyundai is primarily my wife's. She commutes 6 miles each way, so 12 miles per day, that's only 60 miles per week. If we start the week with 80% or more, that's more than enough charge to handle that, random errands, going out to dinner once or twice and any unexpected trips to the "city" (Denver) where my elderly mom and youngest daughter (different places, not roommates) both live.

Since I'm shopping on Saturday or Sunday mornings anyway, the only change to my life was where I park when at Target, so we've now put the installation of the Level 2 charger on the back burner. It was a priority when we bought the car, but the free charging + the Level 1 charger at home is more than sufficient for our normal lives. Since my house's old 100 amp panel is over-utilized anyway, we are going ahead with upgrading our panel to 200amp to get ready for installing a Level 2 in the garage, but holding off on the actual charger for now, it's a long, expensive run from the panel to the garage, so we are just spreading out the expense.

Back in the day when I was commuting 30 miles each way, I think I would have opt'd for the Level 2 charger at home. Plug it in each night and be ready for your day with no concerns.

In practice I've found our basic Level 1 charger adds about 1% per hour, but I haven't bothered to calculate how many miles that might be. Depending on your daily commute adding 10-12% each night on a level 1 may get it done.

That’s good insight. I’m starting new job today (quick meet and greet) then Monday officially but I’ll basically have about an 8 mile round trip commute so similar situation to your wife. I guess if I always shopped same day (on the weekend) at same place then charging like you do at Target makes sense. I get why you do that.
I did a search after your first post and realized we have a public charger just under 1/2 mile from our house at a community park/sports fields so I guess I could drive there one or two nights a week and charge while I go for a walk. Anyway-appreciate the different point of view. If SM offers credits I may just use the sports field until I chew through them and delay a bit with a home charger install.

 

[nolen]

I am super jealous of the commutes you guys have! Mine is 32 miles each way and, assuming I lose my job in the next few weeks, if I am able to find anything close to local, it will still be about the same. I think I'd have to have the level 2 charger with my commute

 

[MaddMatt]

That’s good insight. I’m starting new job today (quick meet and greet) then Monday officially but I’ll basically have about an 8 mile round trip commute so similar situation to your wife. I guess if I always shopped same day (on the weekend) at same place then charging like you do at Target makes sense. I get why you do that.
I did a search after your first post and realized we have a public charger just under 1/2 mile from our house at a community park/sports fields so I guess I could drive there one or two nights a week and charge while I go for a walk. Anyway-appreciate the different point of view. If SM offers credits I may just use the sports field until I chew through them and delay a bit with a home charger install.

Congrats on the new job! Not easy to find one these days.

I think we are all (myself definitely included) guilty of worrying about the 5% and forgetting about the 95%.

What i mean is, based on what you just said with 40 miles of commuting each week, plus errands, an 80% charge on the BEV battery in a Scout would provide you with about 2 weeks of driving, including unscheduled errands, etc... If i were you, I would be planning to just use a cheap level 1 charger at home at night, and honestly never think about it again. That's the 95%.

It's the 5% that we all get hung up on. "What am I going to do on road trips, when I forget to plug it in, etc.." I had to fill the tank in my Xterra the other day when it was -6 f, because I forgot to do it earlier. That was unpleasant. Same thing with a BEV, there may be times when you need to use an unpleasant public charger, but from what you've said, in your daily use, those times will be relatively rare.

A few careers ago, I sold what was basically a highly customized "off grid" RV. Most of my customers decision trees revolved around planning for that 6 month, unsupported trip to Ushuaia, (how do I filter water when the 100 gallons runs out, where do I store fuel in case the 1,000 mile range isn't enough to get between stations, etc....) most of their actual use was 3 day trips to BLM lands where water and fuel were easy to find. It's the drama of the 5% that gets us all excited, and keeps us up at night. 6 weeks into BEV driving, and I've found that I had to shift my perceptions a bit, but there really hasn't been any drama.

That's my opinion, anyway.