Will Scout Work With Future 3rd Party Battery Retrofit/Replacement Companies? (Right to Repair)

[Chavannigans]

Thinking well into the future here, but 10 years from now as EV packs endure the hot summer months and cold winters, deep states of discharge, or worked hard by towing and begin to show their age, will we be stuck with Scout battery replacement packs? Will that even be an option?

I would hate to see software locks on components like companies like Apple and Tesla have been known to do.

I was recently reading about a company that is offering battery upgrades to BMW i3 cars, and more than doubles the size of the battery they initially released with.

There is going to be a multi-million dollar market that opens up in the future for 3rd parties to sell replacement, refurbished, or solid state battery replacements that will breath new life into older EVs.

From a sustainability standpoint this would be better than trading in your vehicle for one with a larger functional capacity. If you can drop your vehicle off at a shop that replaces your old LFP battery with a solid state battery that doubles your range that will help the vehicle maintain its value long term and keep customers happy.


There could be licensing agreements, certified battery service centers, etc.

As emerging EV technologies evolve and become scalable we might end up with vehicles that are more capable than when we purchased them. But that would require cooperation from manufacturers and smaller businesses to make it happen.

What are yalls thoughts on this?

 

[J Alynn]

I don’t think replacements will be as large as people are thinking. However, there’s what-6 manufacturers funding/supporting Ionna charging. Why doesn’t the same group start integrating the service and cross train the techs. 3 or 4 techs and each one trains on 1-3 different companies tech (from Ionna partnership) then your staffing stays lower but you can handle the core groups. This would mean SM would need to buy in sooner than later but would be a very unique partnership

 

[Chavannigans]

I don’t think replacements will be as large as people are thinking. However, there’s what-6 manufacturers funding/supporting Ionna charging. Why doesn’t the same group start integrating the service and cross train the techs. 3 or 4 techs and each one trains on 1-3 different companies tech (from Ionna partnership) then your staffing stays lower but you can handle the core groups. This would mean SM would need to buy in sooner than later but would be a very unique partnership

These BMWs came out 10 years ago and their batteries are showing their age. We are only now seeing aftermarket options and upgrades popping up. Some folks are REALLY excited about it too. They can be had in great condition for around $14k and around $10k for one with a bad battery. The largest battery upgrade is around $7,200 and will give you around 200 miles of range for a car that launched with closer to 126-153 miles of range.

What do you think will happen to your Scout when only 60% capacity remains, it out of warranty, and you get irritated with having to frequently charge it?

Would you sell it for a huge loss?

Or would you sell it or trade it in while its still higher so you arent holding the bag?

I just cant see graveyards of EVs with crapped out batteries going untouched once they are more mainstream. Someone will figure out a way to keep them moving longer and make money doing it. But I guess only time will tell.

It would be awesome to see someone like Ionna step into that world as the market grows and EVs get older.

I would also just feel more comfortable with buying my first EV knowing that 10-20 years from now I wont need someone to hack the trucks computer to make the new battery pack shake hands with the vehicles other computers.

 

[J Alynn]

These BMWs came out 10 years ago and their batteries are showing their age. We are only now seeing aftermarket options and upgrades popping up. Some folks are REALLY excited about it too. They can be had in great condition for around $14k and around $10k for one with a bad battery. The largest battery upgrade is around $7,200 and will give you around 200 miles of range for a car that launched with closer to 126-153 miles of range.

What do you think will happen to your Scout when only 60% capacity remains, it out of warranty, and you get irritated with having to frequently charge it?

Would you sell it for a huge loss?

Or would you sell it or trade it in while its still higher so you arent holding the bag?

I just cant see graveyards of EVs with crapped out batteries going untouched once they are more mainstream. Someone will figure out a way to keep them moving longer and make money doing it. But I guess only time will tell.

It would be awesome to see someone like Ionna step into that world as the market grows and EVs get older.

I would also just feel more comfortable with buying my first EV knowing that 10-20 years from now I wont need someone to hack the trucks computer to make the new battery pack shake hands with the vehicles other computers.

Based on reporting-batteries are showing 10-15 years of solid performance which is twice as long as the majority of any car I’ve ever kept. If I still have a scout after 12+ years it’s because I love it but also hope to be fortunate to have one more convertible in my life. And at 12+ years I’m not going to spend $7000 to upgrade. Assuming SM follows trend and offers a 10 year battery warranty I think the slow fade on the battery will be fine. Most of my charging will be at home so slower/less charge hold will be OK.
That said-that’s my scenario and everyone is different but based on numerous discussions here with EV owners I think batteries will hold for solid 10-12 years.

 

[Chavannigans]

Based on reporting-batteries are showing 10-15 years of solid performance which is twice as long as the majority of any car I’ve ever kept. If I still have a scout after 12+ years it’s because I love it but also hope to be fortunate to have one more convertible in my life. And at 12+ years I’m not going to spend $7000 to upgrade. Assuming SM follows trend and offers a 10 year battery warranty I think the slow fade on the battery will be fine. Most of my charging will be at home so slower/less charge hold will be OK.
That said-that’s my scenario and everyone is different but based on numerous discussions here with EV owners I think batteries will hold for solid 10-12 years.

Holy smokes! That is some longevity. Thats great feedback to hear and I appreciate you sharing that.

I mean... if you get the Cabana roof youll basically have both. Haha

My current daily driver is a 21 year old 4x4 Lexus with 205k miles.
Got a timing belt and CV boots to replace in a few weeks.
I appreciate them making most components user replaceable, but hope they allow for other parties to mend batteries once the warranty expires.
We tend to hold onto cars for a long time and my oldest will inherit the Lexus when he can drive in about 5 years.

 

[BartMan Terra Total EV]

Hey Chavannigans I know this is off topic but wanted to show my GX to you going to miss her when my Terra BEV arrives.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

Based on reporting-batteries are showing 10-15 years of solid performance which is twice as long as the majority of any car I’ve ever kept. If I still have a scout after 12+ years it’s because I love it but also hope to be fortunate to have one more convertible in my life. And at 12+ years I’m not going to spend $7000 to upgrade. Assuming SM follows trend and offers a 10 year battery warranty I think the slow fade on the battery will be fine. Most of my charging will be at home so slower/less charge hold will be OK.
That said-that’s my scenario and everyone is different but based on numerous discussions here with EV owners I think batteries will hold for solid 10-12 years.

Yeah. I have zero concerns about battery longevity.
Assuming the law remains the same, EV batteries are required to be warrantied for >= 8 years and 100,000 miles.

Modern NMC and LFP batteries have 1000-4000 charge cycles before they're down to about 75-80% state of health. Assuming 350 miles per cycle, the low end of a Scout battery longevity is 350,000 miles. And assuming the most common use of these is similar to the average driver, a full cycle will typically take a week (so 52 charge cycles in a year). Make it 60 full charge cycles per year just to account for whatever uses people dream up. That's 16.7 years.

That's for a remaining life of 75-80%. Most people who drive the average number of miles and take road trips very rarely will not notice the reduction in charge capacity after 350,000 miles, 16 years. If they even have kept the vehicle.

 

[J Alynn]

Yeah. I have zero concerns about battery longevity.
Assuming the law remains the same, EV batteries are required to be warrantied for >= 8 years and 100,000 miles.

Modern NMC and LFP batteries have 1000-4000 charge cycles before they're down to about 75-80% state of health. Assuming 350 miles per cycle, the low end of a Scout battery longevity is 350,000 miles. And assuming the most common use of these is similar to the average driver, a full cycle will typically take a week (so 52 charge cycles in a year). Make it 60 full charge cycles per year just to account for whatever uses people dream up. That's 16.7 years.

That's for a remaining life of 75-80%. Most people who drive the average number of miles and take road trips very rarely will not notice the reduction in charge capacity after 350,000 miles, 16 years. If they even have kept the vehicle.

I like seeing it on paper. Thanks for the breakdown. Hope others will see that and worry a bit less

 

[cyure]

I like seeing it on paper. Thanks for the breakdown. Hope others will see that and worry a bit less

Actually that’s did help quite a bit. Thanks!

 

[Chavannigans]

Hey Chavannigans I know this is off topic but wanted to show my GX to you going to miss her when my Terra BEV arrives.
View attachment 5814

Shes a beaut Clark!

Great to meet another GX owner here. Wish you could keep both lol.
What year is yours?

We had two of them for a while, but the wife got pregnant with kiddo #4 and she wanted something easier to get them in and out of so she traded the 2012 in on a Honda Odyssey. She wasnt a fan of the rooftop tent either. I still havent emotionally recovered from the ordeal. Had it pretty well sorted on 34"s and planned to add portals down the road.

Now its down to just my 2004 and my motorcycle for adventures

 

[Cranky Canuck]

Battery replacements probably won't be a thing for the Scouts. EV batteries typically outlast the vehicles they're put into so I don't expect there will be much of a market for it when it comes to Scout or other long range EVs. The reason there are replacement packs for cars like the Nissan Leaf and the BMW i3 specifically is because both of those cars are older, short-range EVs. Batteries have become cheaper and more dense since both of those cars were built and they were both barely enough range to be usable when they were new. They were at the minimum limit. Modern EVs aren't there, they all have excellent range nowadays and far more than most people need in a given day.

Yes batteries degrade slowly over time but typically that's about 1% per year on average. So after ten years you can expect to have 90% of your original range left. That's plenty and most people likely wouldn't even notice. Plus car companies typically reserve a portion of the battery right out of the gate to account for this so over ten years you may not even see any range loss at all from a user standpoint!

The Leaf is an outlier. I owned an original old Leaf (which I've since sold to its third owner and its now 14 years old!). Because of a lack of thermal management, Leaf batteries tend to degrade at about twice the average rate of a thermally managed EV battery. So about 2% per year. That matches my experience, when I sold my Leaf it had a state of health of 71% (ie 29% degradation which is close to about 2% per year - it was around 13 years old when I sold it so you'd expect around 26% loss).

The battery still worked perfectly and the car was rock solid reliable. The only issue was range which was always an issue in the Leaf...and the i3. They are both short range EVs which means a) you'd want to upgrade the battery even if it were new because more range is more better! and b) any minor degradation you experience is much more noticeable on a short range car. With the Leaf, it only had about 120 km of range when it was brand spankin' new so a 26% degradation of range over 13 years means the usable range fell 31 km to just 89km max range. Compare that to a modern long-range EV where degradation is not only lower at roughly 1% but the range is significantly more - 480 km for my Ioniq 5 when it was new - and the loss after 13 years will only be 13% or 62 km which would leave me with 418 km of range. But that's before also factoring in the fact that Hyundai has reserved part of the battery specifically to account for degradation so in the three years since I bought my car it still is showing 100% battery health and still gets over the maximum advertised range of 480 km.

 

[BartMan Terra Total EV]

Shes a beaut Clark!

Great to meet another GX owner here. Wish you could keep both lol.
What year is yours?

We had two of them for a while, but the wife got pregnant with kiddo #4 and she wanted something easier to get them in and out of so she traded the 2012 in on a Honda Odyssey. She wasnt a fan of the rooftop tent either. I still havent emotionally recovered from the ordeal. Had it pretty well sorted on 34"s and planned to add portals down the road.

View attachment 5817

Now its down to just my 2004 and my motorcycle for adventures

View attachment 5819

View attachment 5820

Assuming this was meant for me and not Clark or maybe it was a superman Clark Kent reference.

My GX is a 2023 Luxury wth off road package the last of its breed. I mean it came stock with a Carl Levinson single disc CD player in 2023...crazy

Stock suspension with Ko2s 10 ply, rocky road super sliders, front trim cut and a 4x4 Big Country rack. Love the sheet out of this rig but 9 mpg while towing trailer keeps me up at night. Not that any other ICE vehicle could tow my trailer with any significant improvement on MPG. Which is why I choose the Terra BEV.

 

[chucchinchilla]

At least here in California, a whole cottage industry has popped up to support ageing Hybrids and their batteries. I know because I recently bought a 2007 Camry Hybrid for my FIL and it has one of these refurbished batteries in it. For $750 they'll come out in a van, swap the battery pack with a refurb unit, and take your core which they'll break down and use the good cells to create new packs. I have no doubt this same industry will pop up for BEVs in the coming years, especially since the packs are modular meaning you can indeed swap out the defective modules for good ones bringing it back into a decent spec.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

But that's before also factoring in the fact that Hyundai has reserved part of the battery specifically to account for degradation so in the three years since I bought my car it still is showing 100% battery health and still gets over the maximum advertised range of 480 km.

This is a great point that I usually don't go into because the longevity is so good that few people will see the degradation in their daily lives, but it's also important.

My Lightning has a 143 kWh battery with 131 kWh usable (91.6%).

The manufacturer reserves battery capacity using whatever strategy they decide is best. They could say that the usable battery is always 131 kWh (until that's no longer possible); they could say there's always 12 kWh reserved at the top end; they could say there's always 8.4% reserved at the top end; they could say the reserved capacity changes over time based on miles or battery age, or they could even arbitrarily change that via reprogramming of the battery management system. Each of those reserved capacity strategies has a different impact on the driver.

We don't really know which strategy any given manufacturer is using unless they've published (or patented) the strategy. I haven't bothered to look it up for Ford. I suspect Scout hasn't locked in theirs yet. I expect they'll use Rivian or VW as a guide but will come up with their own unique strategy based on expected usage and the lifetime testing they're doing with the batteries today, and with input from the battery manufacturer.

What is clear is that every modern manufacturer reserves some capacity at the top in part to reduce real degradation and in part to reduce noticeable degradation.

Note: None of this particular degradation discussion is about a catastrophic (not in a fire-sense, but in a rapid failure sense) or out-of-spec failure of a battery cell or module due to some manufacturing defect or due to some unexpected stress on the battery. Degradation discussions are about the mean and median within the bounds of 2- or 3-sigma statistical battery behavior. A failure based on manufacturing issues or design issues that causes a bad battery is different. If your battery survives the 8-year, 100,000 mile warranty, chances are good that it won't have one of these other failure modes.

 

[Chavannigans]

Assuming this was meant for me and not Clark or maybe it was a superman Clark Kent reference.

My GX is a 2023 Luxury wth off road package the last of its breed. I mean it came stock with a Carl Levinson single disc CD player in 2023...crazy

Stock suspension with Ko2s 10 ply, rocky road super sliders, front trim cut and a 4x4 Big Country rack. Love the sheet out of this rig but 9 mpg while towing trailer keeps me up at night. Not that any other ICE vehicle could tow my trailer with any significant improvement on MPG. Which is why I choose the Terra BEV.

Its a National Lampoons reference. May have been before your time.

That is wild, I thought they had a 6 CD cassette in the glove compartment?

Fuel range is a big reason we were looking at the Scout too. Long Range America makes auxillary tanks but they are around $3k installed.

The only real Land Cruiser 300 you can buy in the US is the LX700h Overtrail, but its $114k and only has an 18 gallon tank. Fuel range while towing will be abysmal.