Plug in hybrid.
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I believe Ram has mentioned that they'll only fill the battery to 50% via the v6 (romr reports on that here,
Is Scout far enough into testing to know if the Harvester will fill the battery completely or if there will be limits to it?
In reality, I dont think it really matters cause if it cant fill it, that just means you run the Harvester more often. But I am curious.
Edit: found the article
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Follow up on the Harvester range. Will the harvester version allow for unlimited range? Meaning will the harvester be able to charge the battery enough to run at highway speeds (70mph, say traveling cross country for 3 days) by only filling up the gas tank? Can I make that trip without having to "plug-in" to charge the battery. If so, then filling up every 350mi is about perfect timing to empty the bladder. LOL. And the scout is functioning basically as a regular combustion vehicle.Luckily, the Harvester is a plug in hybrid.
Given, there are two categories of plug in hybrid (Serial, and Parallel). And the harvester is going to be a Serial plug in hybrid, which at the moment, is less common.
The real difference is that in a serial plug in hybrid, the gas motor doesn't directly drive the wheels of the vehicle (no mechanical connection between the engine and the wheels, no Transmission, no driveshafts, nothing). Instead it simply generates electricity to drive the wheels. This is simpler, and lets people design the vehicle more like an EV.
A parallel hybrid, can power the wheels with both the electric motor, and the gas engine at the same time (ie, in "parallel"). It has some benefit, because you can use a smaller electric motor/and or get more power output, and otherwise basically use a normal combustion vehicle drivetrain.
Some in the industry have started calling Series hybrids "extended range electric vehicles", but there really isn't anything specific to the architecture that makes it any more or less "extended range" than a parallel hybrid. Instead, they just tend to have larger battery packs, and they end up calling the gas engine the "range extender".
Anyway, the Harvester version of the scouts is supposed to have 150 miles of EV only range, and then fire up the gas engine and drive until the gas tank runs dry (and repeat as you'd like), for a total of 500 miles of range. Once you fill up, you'll only go another ~350 miles though (assuming you didn't also recharge the battery to 100%).
Most parallel PHEV's, have a range of ~30-40 miles or so in the USA... because there was some tax credit stuff that you didn't qualify for unless you hit a minimum of 30 miles of range. But they "could" have larger batteries if they wanted.
Welcome to the community. A great follow is @Jamie@ScoutMotors. He has posted recently some more details about the Harvester and what it will be capable of. I would take a look at his posts on that subject.
Welcome again!!
Where in that article does it say that they will only fill the battery to 50%? The only reference I found to something like that is this one:
It says explicitly that the generator will be able to charge to any level: "..., it will maintain whatever level that is".
If you are turning on the Harvester generator to charge the Scout's battery when the vehicle is stopped (a feature that has already been confirmed for the Scouts), the generator can fill the battery to whatever level you set it to. The maximum percentage will almost certainly be a user configurable setting just like you can set the max percentage with AC or DC charging. A standard home 15amp outlet can fully charge the battery of a BEV, the on-board generator of the Harvester will be able to provide a lot more than power than that.
Yes, you can "gas-and-go" with the Harvester - this has been confirmed multiple times by Scout representatives. You do not need to charge the battery at all, the Harvester can provide enough power to run at highway speeds. So, you can make a trip of any distance just stopping for gas every ~350 miles.
The way I read that is the v6 will produce electricity to power the motors directly, maintaining SoC by not adding anything to the battery. And if its <50%, then any excess left over from powering the motors would be added to the battery ..until battery hits 50%. Then it'll stop adding to it.
Hence my comment about 'not able to fill more than 50%'.
Given their results of the Davis Dam test, the v6 can power the vehicle entirely with an empty battery. So I take the 'maintain SoC' idea from the fact it likely will have left over juice, but they'll just jettison that extra energy if the battery is >50%.
Thats just how I (and apparently ROMR and iirc TFL) read it. I'm open to other interpretations.
Sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense. Why would you "jettison that extra energy"? If the battery is at ~50%, that mean it still has ~50% capacity for more power.
Have you every driven a hybrid (of any kind)? If there is sufficient battery power the vehicle runs on battery. Even the non-plug-in hybrids do this. I own a 2017 RAV4 hybrid (not a plug-in) it does this. The RAM (like the Scout Harvester) is a serial hybrid - if there is sufficient battery power the truck runs on battery. The generator turns on when the battery level gets too low (where too low depends on the settings). When the battery gets above the threshold (whatever it is), the generator turns off and the vehicle goes back to running off the battery.
There’s some confusion about the RAMCharger EREV.
The Forbes article doesn’t clear it up, and adds some misconceptions and other misunderstandings of EVs and EREVs.
As currently planned, the RAM EREV will have three modes:
Note also, according to RAM engineers, the genset will not and cannot be used to recharge the battery to 100%.
www.greencarreports.com
The Forbes article doesn’t clear it up, and adds some misconceptions and other misunderstandings of EVs and EREVs.
As currently planned, the RAM EREV will have three modes:
- Electric+
- All-electric until the battery is depleted, at which time the genset will come on and provide electrical power to the motors, and the reserve capacity of the battery will continue to be drained.
- As long as you stay in Electric+ mode, the genset will not charge the battery.
- Regenerative braking could recharge the battery.
- E-Save
- Whatever the battery’s state of charge when activated is the state of charge the genset will try to maintain. In other words, the genset will try to produce just enough power to drive the motors but not more.
- Exception: If the state of charge is below 50% when E-Save mode is active, the genset will produce a bit of extra power so that the battery state of charge is slowly returned to 50%. At that point, the genset will throttle back to only produce enough power to run the motors.
- Regen will still operate and charge the battery (unless you start E-Save while at 100%).
- Eco
- This will try to use as little energy as possible, reducing acceleration, lowering HVAC operations, etc.
- It’s not stated explicitly, but it’s likely that the only way to achieve the very long ranges advertised, this mode will have to be engaged.
Note also, according to RAM engineers, the genset will not and cannot be used to recharge the battery to 100%.
Ram Ramcharger PHEV doesn’t need a charge to haul 14,000 lb up 6% grade
Ram’s laid out near-final specs for its Ramcharger plug-in hybrid pickup; says it will be a no-compromise solution.
And I think this is the crux of the disagreement. @BeerParty is saying every other hybrid is able to fully recharge, why not Ram? I'm sort of asking the same question - if they say 'it'll charge up to 50%, but if the battery is >50% it'll just maintain SoC'
Soooo.. why? Why wouldnt Ram be able to charge to 100% SoC from the v6 like every other hybrid? Is it a voltage thing (I swear it was TFL who said that, cant find it tho) or is it simply a battery management function and they could if they wanted to? The 'can not and will not' verbiage kinda sounds like its not even an option.
And notably.. will Scout have the same/similar limitation to Ram or will it be able to fully recharge like other hybrids?
And thank you for the correction. I said 'jettison extra energy' but 'dialing back the generator' makes more sense
Edit: and please note- I'm not trying to argue. I'm trying to understand. Maybe we need more info? Maybe I'm just dense? The latter is VERY likely!
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Understanding the “why” behind any decision made by Stellantis in the past five years is, in my opinion, an exercise in frustration.And I think this is the crux of the disagreement. @BeerParty is saying every other hybrid is able to fully recharge, why not Ram? I'm sort of asking the same question - if they say 'it'll charge up to 50%, but if the battery is >50% it'll just maintain SoC'
Soooo.. why? Why wouldnt Ram be able to charge to 100% SoC from the v6 like every other hybrid? Is it a voltage thing (I swear it was TFL who said that, cant find it tho) or is it simply a battery management function and they could if they wanted to? The 'can not and will not' verbiage kinda sounds like its not even an option.
And notably.. will Scout have the same/similar limitation to Ram or will it be able to fully recharge like other hybrids?
And thank you for the correction. I said 'jettison extra energy' but 'dialing back the generator' makes more sense
Edit: and please note- I'm not trying to argue. I'm trying to understand. Maybe we need more info? Maybe I'm just dense? The latter is VERY likely!
Before going any further, I should note that very little that has come out of Stellantis is reliable. The information above came from an engineering team almost a year ago. Things at Stellantis seem to change very quickly.
The engineers were quoted as saying that if you start the E-Save mode when the battery is at 100%, it will run the genset engine until the fuel is exhausted and then begin using the battery. This suggests that voltage isn’t the reason they’re avoiding charging the battery to 100% with the genset.
My *GUESS* is that it’s very difficult to manage the genset output when the battery management system is trying to balance all the cells between about 98% and 100% state of charge. In other words, during the top-end balancing of the battery it might be incredibly inefficient to use the genset engine to charge the battery because they will have to rapidly change the RPM of the genset engine to manage the output. Or perhaps they’ll have to run it at a constant RPM well above the RPM required to generate the average power needed by the BMS to balance the battery cells. Either way, this will be terribly inefficient and Stellantis might have decided not to do this so they can keep higher EPA mpge numbers. But this is a guess.
IRL LOL at the 'understanding' comment
I get your speculation. I keep looking at the 50% number and thinking thats such an odd, low point to not increase the battery above. Your comment makes sense around the tippy top of the range. But if that were the case, why wouldn't they say above 80 or 90%? Those numbers would make sense if it were a BMS-at-the-top-range issue, right? But 50%? Something's fishy..
That 50% oddity is what prompted my question. If it were 80 or 90%, I'd just accept it without really questioning things.
That was my guess as well, and maybe the top limit will be somewhere between 90-95% using the generator (if set to the mode for that option). All of these modes and electronics with Stellantis and having to deal with a big V6 engine and a battery does not fill me with much optimism based on my previous experience with our Jeep having both electrical and engine issues before we got rid of it.
Edit:
Although now watching that youtube review from ROMR, if that is accurate then it will maintain the percentage in Esave mode at whatever the percentage is so if it's at 80% it'll keep it at 80% but if it's under 50% then it just charges to 50% at keeps it there and won't go higher. That makes no sense, but it is Stellantis so maybe it does make sense in that regard.
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It’s my guess that the 50% value was chosen because of FUD still making its way into battery health discussions.IRL LOL at the 'understanding' comment
I get your speculation. I keep looking at the 50% number and thinking thats such an odd, low point to not increase the battery above. Your comment makes sense around the tippy top of the range. But if that were the case, why wouldn't they say above 80 or 90%? Those numbers would make sense if it were a BMS-at-the-top-range issue, right? But 50%? Something's fishy..
That 50% oddity is what prompted my question. If it were 80 or 90%, I'd just accept it without really questioning things.
Fact:
There are a lot of research articles explaining that “best” state of charge to store (for months) a lithium battery is at around 50% SOC.
FUD:
Don’t charge your battery above 50% unless you absolutely need to.
Stellantis' Response:
Use the EREV in the RAM to keep the SOC of the battery at 50% unless we must charge it above.
The things that aren't being discussed (yet) that will factor into the range equation when going long (and will be important variables to consider) are the following:
1. coefficient of drag - do you have accessories? things on the roof? larger tires? more aggressive tires? a big trailer? etc.
2. temperature - temp will impact range
3. wind - headwind or tailwind - amazing how wind will impact range
4. elevation - same, if you have to climb hills you will have lower range than on a descent
5. ride height - if air suspension can be lower VS. a lifted non-air truck
6. motor selection - will there be an eco mode that could disable the rear motor & run only fwd?
7. payload & towing - increasing weight will reduce range
8. SPEED - this one is could be the most important for regular trips when not considering the above factors
Ah, HWY SPEED - Since we're talking about RANGE and likely getting places on a HWY, and since drag is also proportional THE SQUARE OF SPEED, once you get over a certain (undetermined) threshold for Scout's prime speed efficiency number, if you double your speed could actually QUADRUPLE your drag.
This is all to say that this is where real-world testing will come into play with production vehicles. And these variables are going to factor into ANY vehicle's overall efficiency, of course (whether they are ICE, HYBRID, EREV or BEV).
1. coefficient of drag - do you have accessories? things on the roof? larger tires? more aggressive tires? a big trailer? etc.
2. temperature - temp will impact range
3. wind - headwind or tailwind - amazing how wind will impact range
4. elevation - same, if you have to climb hills you will have lower range than on a descent
5. ride height - if air suspension can be lower VS. a lifted non-air truck
6. motor selection - will there be an eco mode that could disable the rear motor & run only fwd?
7. payload & towing - increasing weight will reduce range
8. SPEED - this one is could be the most important for regular trips when not considering the above factors
Ah, HWY SPEED - Since we're talking about RANGE and likely getting places on a HWY, and since drag is also proportional THE SQUARE OF SPEED, once you get over a certain (undetermined) threshold for Scout's prime speed efficiency number, if you double your speed could actually QUADRUPLE your drag.
This is all to say that this is where real-world testing will come into play with production vehicles. And these variables are going to factor into ANY vehicle's overall efficiency, of course (whether they are ICE, HYBRID, EREV or BEV).
True - and charging your battery to store it for months is a complete edge case and not something that most people ever need to consider.
For "Daily Driving" Rivian suggests a 70% SOC. I have no problem going to 100% when I will be driving for 4+ hours. I charged to 100% before departing my house last weekend for an 8 hour drive, and did the same before my return trip. Don't even think twice about it.
IRL LOL at the 'understanding' comment
I get your speculation. I keep looking at the 50% number and thinking thats such an odd, low point to not increase the battery above. Your comment makes sense around the tippy top of the range. But if that were the case, why wouldn't they say above 80 or 90%? Those numbers would make sense if it were a BMS-at-the-top-range issue, right? But 50%? Something's fishy..
That 50% oddity is what prompted my question. If it were 80 or 90%, I'd just accept it without really questioning things.
I think you are stuck on the 50% the wrong way. You said that is "such an odd, low point to not increase the battery above." But that is not what they are saying. What they are saying is the when in the specific mode, the genset engages to provide driving power and it will also charge the batteries. If you are below 50% the genset will run to charge the battery to at least 50% before throttling down to maintain just drive power. Again, that is at least 50%, not a maximum of 50%. The genset can keep charging above that percentage, what the maximum value is likely depends on the settings the user has selected.
The quote about fully recharging: "But the gas generator can not and will not be used to fully charge the Ramcharger under any circumstance, according to the engineers." doesn't apply to the 50%. The key words in that sentence are: fully charge. That means charging to 100%. The reasons for that are most likely the reasons that @SpaceEVDriver stated, and the maximum battery charge level using the generator is somewhere in the 90-98% range.
This makes sense if you think in terms of an electric vehicle - this is a EV truck with a generator. And charging an EV at home is less expensive than using gas.
The truck needs a certain amount of power to move in normal conditions. When driving on flat ground, the generator can provide enough power to drive and some excess power to charge the batteries. But it needs a lot more power if it is pulling a heavy trailer (they claim up to 14,000 pounds), uphill, with a headwind, and a lead-foot driver. The batteries can provide that much power, but the generator cannot. So, to make sure the truck can maintain power in extreme conditions, the set up the E-Save drive mode to maintain at least 50% power, so there is always plenty of power in the batteries.
They don't try to go above 50% (in E-Save drive mode) because using gas in the generator is more expensive than charging. 50% provides the minimum buffer they feel is needed, without burning gas to charge the battery. Plugging in would charge the battery for a lot less cost. The truck is already hauling the generator and gas, they have it if they need it. No need to burn it when there are cheaper options available.
[editing for wording]
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