240V Outlet on Traveller

[brianlmccann]

As it stands, only the Tera has the 240V outlet. There is no reason for this and really needs to change. I only want the traveller but I need a 240V outlet. I think most people watching the presentation just assumed this would be on both.

 

[Logan]

The idea of a bi-directional charger is great, until the price starts becoming a factor. I really dislike the forced requirements and hardware to enable it on things like the F150 Lightning. I understand some of it and they are trying to limit liability, but overall too pricy vs me walking out and swapping the manual interlock and plugging it in.

Bi-directional charging is awesome. Or, rather, its awesome "sounding". Except to implement it I need a special charger, to pay a specific company to come install it, etc.

Which means at the end of the day, I'm way more likely to just back the thing out of the garage, and plug it into the manual transfer switch I already have, and use that like $30 cable .

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

I just plug in a bunch of extension cords and run the things I need from the 9.6 kW of onboard AC power.

 

[TreeKiller]

I just plug in a bunch of extension cords and run the things I need from the 9.6 kW of onboard AC power.

View attachment 4334

This looks like how the Christmas lights in my front yard are wired up lol.

 

[ThatOneRoadie]

I'll add a +100 to having a 240v outlet (or at least 120v@30A) on the Traveler (Be it in the frunk or in the interior somewhere). It'd be super handy for towing a camper/travel trailer somewhere, and then being able to power it off of the Scout itself once parked up, instead of having to lug around a generator.

 

[dleepnw]

It should also be at least 30amps, 40mps would be even better.

 

[burval]

Bump!

 

[John Mc]

Bi-directional charging is awesome. Or, rather, its awesome "sounding". Except to implement it I need a special charger, to pay a specific company to come install it, etc.

Which means at the end of the day, I'm way more likely to just back the thing out of the garage, and plug it into the manual transfer switch I already have, and use that like $30 cable

Exactly how I would like to use it. Just an outlet and a cable I can plug in to my existing manual transfer. That way, I can also use it to help out any neighbor who is wired for a generator, without having to have all that fancy bidirectional charger hardware and installation cost. (Also more easily used for camping situations.) Keep it simple!

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

Exactly how I would like to use it. Just an outlet and a cable I can plug in to my existing manual transfer. That way, I can also use it to help out any neighbor who is wired for a generator, without having to have all that fancy bidirectional charger hardware and installation cost. (Also more easily used for camping situations.) Keep it simple!

The promise of the bidirectional charger really isn't always met by an EV anyway. If you've gone out for a drive when the power is out, the main benefit of the bidirectional charger---an automated switchover---has no value.

 

[bwdavis7]

@Jamie@ScoutMotors What's the deal with the Traveler not getting a 240 VAC outlet? Can we get an official reason it wasn't consider for both the Terra and the Traveler? At least it should be an option on the Traveler. There are so many things that would make it useful as mentioned in the previous posts. Hopefully, this topic will get some notice early enough in the Traveler design phase to make it to production. Come on Scouts, if this is important to you, let's be heard. Upvoted.

 

[J Alynn]

@Jamie@ScoutMotors What's the deal with the Traveler not getting a 240 VAC outlet? Can we get an official reason it wasn't consider for both the Terra and the Traveler? At least it should be an option on the Traveler. There are so many things that would make it useful as mentioned in the previous posts. Hopefully, this topic will get some notice early enough in the Traveler design phase to make it to production. Come on Scouts, if this is important to you, let's be heard. Upvoted.

I’m curious what uses you see that majority of drivers/owners of travelers would use it for. Terra make complete sense from a contractor point of view t of view but with an SUV I suspect outside of enthusiasts on this forum, very few people would have a need for 240v. But I’m curious if you are thinking outside of the box

 

[John Mc]

As already noted earlier in the thread, bi-directional charging requires special equipment be installed at the point of use. My house is already wired for a generator. I’d like to use that connection, rather than be tied to some company’s special equipment. I also make a point of making the rounds during extended power outages in my small, rural community to see how others are doing. I’ll lend my generator for a bit so folks can run their refrigerators and freezers to cool them off, or run their well pumps so they can take showers, flush toilets and replenish drinking water.

While it’s possible to run extension cords to some appliances, that is not always safe, and certainly not convenient. It also doesn’t work for a well pumps (which are all 240V in our area, due to the deep wells).

Further: pickup trucks are not the only vehicles used by contractors.

 

[Logan]

I’m curious what uses you see that majority of drivers/owners of travelers would use it for. Terra make complete sense from a contractor point of view t of view but with an SUV I suspect outside of enthusiasts on this forum, very few people would have a need for 240v. But I’m curious if you are thinking outside of the box

Nearly 100% of my use for 240v would be for home backup.

My entire neighborhood was built with manual transfer switches, as we get power outages with some regularity in the winter after wind storms put trees through the power lines. And 240v is much, much preferred for that use, as it gives you the headroom to live more normally.

My current EV has an an adapter that lets you pull 120v x 15amp out of the vehicle. I had my first power outage this past weekend since owning it, and while parts of the experience were awesome (way easier than pulling out the generator), 15amps just isn’t that much. The adapter tripped its load limits 3x, as I was experimenting with what I could run using it.

I could run my networking equipment, fireplace fan, indoor refrigerator, and the freezer in the garage all at once, while also using my desktop gaming computer (~250w at load). That worked for about 1.5yrs, then it tripped. I assume because of a defrost cycle on one or both of the fridge/freezer, was finally enough to pass its limits.

While more people May use a 240v outlet in the Terra, I think it would definitely be a selling point for the Traveler.

Honestly, Partially just because of the type of user it attracts. Scout people seem to want a “Swiss army knife” of vehicles. And having the ability to power a home, we’ll pump, or whatever, is valued.

Although, I’d be ok if the 240v output was via some sort of adapter as well, at least for my use. And barring that, a 120v x 30amp TT-30 outlet would be the bare minimum I’d want.

 

[J Alynn]

As already noted earlier in the thread, bi-directional charging requires special equipment be installed at the point of use. My house is already wired for a generator. I’d like to use that connection, rather than be tied to some company’s special equipment. I also make a point of making the rounds during extended power outages in my small, rural community to see how others are doing. I’ll lend my generator for a bit so folks can run their refrigerators and freezers to cool them off, or run their well pumps so they can take showers, flush toilets and replenish drinking water.

While it’s possible to run extension cords to some appliances, that is not always safe, and certainly not convenient. It also doesn’t work for a well pumps (which are all 240V in our area, due to the deep wells).

Further: pickup trucks are not the only vehicles used by contractors.

I understand that as I’m in the design and build field and I hadn’t thought of a use point like your so I appreciate you sharing. I suspect it is still a very small number of people using that in an SUV when you look at a reservation count of probably well over 100,000 vehicles to date. Would be great if they could set up an option to convert to a 240v outlet in a reasonable manner but it is probably a challenge to do so in a mass produced vehicle. Not saying it wouldn’t be useful for some but guessing decisions like that are being made based on mass sales rather than individual needs, not that there wouldn’t be value for those who need it. Therein lies the challenge for SM -what info do you rely on as a large manufacturer. Just like we all want pick and choose options but at some point volume and top take rates win the day. If 100,000 buyers pick Travelers and only 5000 need a 240v outlet is it worth SM including on all travelers for 5% of sales? Unfortunately that’s the question that will come of every feature. Like @cyure says-i want everyone to have what they want but at some point a call will be made and truth be told, as a betting man (not with my money mind you) I’d guess 80% of traveler sales will never go off-road, never run a generator, never run the Baja trail, etc… I just hope SM figures out a way to make it an option for those that will use it regularly. But adding more cost for items only 5% will use is a big tug of war internally for SM no matter the feature

 

[bwdavis7]

I’m curious what uses you see that majority of drivers/owners of travelers would use it for. Terra make complete sense from a contractor point of view t of view but with an SUV I suspect outside of enthusiasts on this forum, very few people would have a need for 240v. But I’m curious if you are thinking outside of the box

Personally, my use case would be for backup power for home and others if needed. I currently have a 120V gas generator that I can use to power most essentials through a transfer switch, however having 240V would be ideal. I am not interested in bidirectional charging.

Maybe outside of the box... I could see times when you might need to "share" battery charge with another EV. You're really not going to want to do that with a L1 charger. Also, I don't own a RV or camper, but don't most of those utilize 240V hookup? If your away from a campground and need/want connection then there you go.

I get your comment on the contractor use case, however, I guess that's what is driving my question. What use case(s) are specifically driving SM decision to include on the Terra and not on the Traveler? Is it as you state, contractors? Folks that drive pickups are the primary ones needing 240V? The back of my SUV is my DIY workshop more than 50% of the time. It keeps my tools dry and secure. I don't have nor need a tow behind covered trailer.

It could be that SM has market data that supports their decision. I am just curious of what is driving that decision while really wanting that option. As for the previously mentioned 240V adapter it would actually be much easier to convert from 240V to 120V.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

Charging another EV (V2V) is a use-case I’ve only seen Ford advertise. While it’s been a rare use for me, I have done it. Having 240V made it possible; 120 V would have been impossible and I would have simply used my car trailer to move the vehicle instead of using an L2 to charge it. Scout could easily make it part of its do-it-all capability profile by including 240V in both the Terra and the Traveler.

In one way, it’s kind of annoying. The Lightning’s included mobile L2 charger is limited to 30A (7.2 kW) because it’s meant to be used for V2V and the bed outlet has a max 30A output. The Mustang’s mobile L2 charger can go up to 32A (7.7 kW). They’re identical in all other ways.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

I understand that as I’m in the design and build field and I hadn’t thought of a use point like your so I appreciate you sharing. I suspect it is still a very small number of people using that in an SUV when you look at a reservation count of probably well over 100,000 vehicles to date. Would be great if they could set up an option to convert to a 240v outlet in a reasonable manner but it is probably a challenge to do so in a mass produced vehicle. Not saying it wouldn’t be useful for some but guessing decisions like that are being made based on mass sales rather than individual needs, not that there wouldn’t be value for those who need it. Therein lies the challenge for SM -what info do you rely on as a large manufacturer. Just like we all want pick and choose options but at some point volume and top take rates win the day. If 100,000 buyers pick Travelers and only 5000 need a 240v outlet is it worth SM including on all travelers for 5% of sales? Unfortunately that’s the question that will come of every feature. Like @cyure says-i want everyone to have what they want but at some point a call will be made and truth be told, as a betting man (not with my money mind you) I’d guess 80% of traveler sales will never go off-road, never run a generator, never run the Baja trail, etc… I just hope SM figures out a way to make it an option for those that will use it regularly. But adding more cost for items only 5% will use is a big tug of war internally for SM no matter the feature

The thing about the calculation of added cost here is that the development for the part is already being done for the Terra. So there’s minimal additional added cost for the part and maybe location development. If they charge for it as an option rather than as standard, they can actually reduce the overall cost of the development/part for everyone. And if they had (or do) made it part of the outlet panel near the charge port, which seems to be identical between the Traveler and the Terra (rather than interior to the vehicle), then there’s zero additional development cost and only revenue to be seen by including it as part of the Traveler.

 

[TelemarkingSailor]

I’m curious what uses you see that majority of drivers/owners of travelers would use it for. Terra make complete sense from a contractor point of view t of view but with an SUV I suspect outside of enthusiasts on this forum, very few people would have a need for 240v. But I’m curious if you are thinking outside of the box

One of the reasons I've been waiting to purchase a full EV vehicle is that one of my critical applications is to facilitate house backup for electrical. I fully expect my BEV or EREV to play a substantial role in extending my ability to run my home without access to grid power.

Other applications I haven't explored but maybe hope the forum might provide insight on: I'd be using this for car camping and tail-gating (apres-ski, apres-sail). I haven't even begun to dream about what awesome toys I'd want to bring to my tail-gating events, but if we're spitballing here, I'd like to have the option for 240.

 

[BeerParty]

As it stands, only the Tera has the 240V outlet. There is no reason for this and really needs to change. I only want the traveller but I need a 240V outlet. I think most people watching the presentation just assumed this would be on both.

I have been thinking about this for a little while, and it occurs to me that it might be better for Scout to not put 240V outlets on the outside* of either vehicle. Instead, I think they should offer multiple V2L (Vehicle to Load) adapters for the NACS plug. This has several advantages:

• They could charge for the adapters. This way the cost of the option isn't born by everyone, just the people that want it can pay for it (by buying an adapter).
• Since a 240V outlet would likely be optional, it simplifies the Scout design. They don't need to make two versions of the outlet's location on the vehicles.
• It makes the 240V outlet available to both vehicles, since they both have the same NACS port.
• They can offer multiple adapters at different price points for different users.
  • A 15A 120V adapter (w/NEMA 5-15 outlet) for the majority of people that just need typical US appliances.
  • A 50A 240V adapter (w/NEMA L6-50 outlet) for people that need the power for welders, home backup, camping, or other high-power uses.
• If NACS truly is a standard, Scout could sell the adapters to other BEV owners. And, other vendors could offer adapters with different plugs for the NACS port (this already exists, a company called a2zev already offers a 20A 120V adapter for the NACS port).

* By outside, I am including the bed of the Terra. And while I can see a use case for a 120V outlet on the inside of a vehicle, I can't think of a use case for a 240V outlet. So I'm just going to stick with "outside the vehicle" for this discussion about 240V outlets.

 

[Logan]

I have been thinking about this for a little while, and it occurs to me that it might be better for Scout to not put 240V outlets on the outside* of either vehicle. Instead, I think they should offer multiple V2L (Vehicle to Load) adapters for the NACS plug. This has several advantages:

• They could charge for the adapters. This way the cost of the option isn't born by everyone, just the people that want it can pay for it (by buying an adapter).
• Since a 240V outlet would likely be optional, it simplifies the Scout design. They don't need to make two versions of the outlet's location on the vehicles.
• It makes the 240V outlet available to both vehicles, since they both have the same NACS port.
• They can offer multiple adapters at different price points for different users.
  • A 15A 120V adapter (w/NEMA 5-15 outlet) for the majority of people that just need typical US appliances.
  • A 50A 240V adapter (w/NEMA L6-50 outlet) for people that need the power for welders, home backup, camping, or other high-power uses.
• If NACS truly is a standard, Scout could sell the adapters to other BEV owners. And, other vendors could offer adapters with different plugs for the NACS port (this already exists, a company called a2zev already offers a 20A 120V adapter for the NACS port).

* By outside, I am including the bed of the Terra. And while I can see a use case for a 120V outlet on the inside of a vehicle, I can't think of a use case for a 240V outlet. So I'm just going to stick with "outside the vehicle" for this discussion about 240V outlets.

Yeah, I think thing the adapter/dongle approach could work well, particularly for the Traveller.

Few other notes/thoughts:

• If we're doing a single 120v adapter, please let it be a Nema 5-20.
  • No need to hamstring ourselves with a 15amp outlet, when the 20amp version adds some additional headroom, and doesn't really have any big downsides.
• I'm not sure that simply having an adapter lets you power things. I'm pretty sure the vehicle has to support it as well.
  • That A2ZEV adapter is for the new V2L functionality on the new Teslas? I don't think I've heard of any other brand working with it.
• Like you, I struggle to think of a use of a 240v outlet being used inside the vehicles cabin
  • Also, in a power outage/home backup situation, the weather is often crappy outside (at least around here). And I would NOT want to drape an extension cord through a cracked open window to power my house in a huge wind/rain/thunderstorm.

The only downside to adapters, is it means you can't charge the vehicle, AND power things at the same time. Niche, but could happen.

Alternatively, they could put two NACS ports on the vehicles, and that would solve the "what side do you charge on" problem, as well as the "I want to charge the car while run my well pump" problem as well. Seems potentially useful, but likely too expensive :/.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

Kia and Hyundai have V2L options with their CCS1 ports and I assume with their NACS ports. I’m pretty sure the Silverado also has this option on its CCS1 port. It’s almost always just a software decision, most onboard chargers on most EVs are capable of this, but the manufacturer has to enable it.

As far as I know, they’re all limited to 120V. I don’t believe there’s a settled standard for this yet.

I would accept a V2L approach with a dongle from the charge port instead of an additional receptacle built into the vehicle.

However, I have had instances where I charge the vehicle while also providing power from the outlets, so I would prefer a 240V port separate from the charge port.