The Start/Stop Button

[RodorW]

I know that we have talked multiple times on this forum about the on/off (start/stop) button. Personally, I don't think it's necessary, but I have heard the use cases for some people who want it, but looking at the bigger picture, this is why I wanted to start a new thread specifically on this topic.

In the bigger picture, start/stop buttons on electric vehicles are not really necessary, and going forward from Gen 1 to Gen 2, If the start/stop button makes it into Gen 1, how likely is it to make it into Gen 2? And I know a bunch of people have said that coming from an ice vehicle, they're used to the start/stop button and it's just more accommodating and comfortable. However, there's really no way around the button being a band-aid situation, whether it's Gen 1 or Gen 2. If Scout removes it, it's going to be a thing that people just have to get used to, whereas in Gen 1, if Scout makes it optional, (either physically or in software) a lot of people will choose to use it and then, going into Gen 2, if there is no button, it's going to be the Band-Aid again. It's going to get yanked off (sooner or later), and it's going to be a whole thing.

So my shower thought of the day, because I really hate the button in my Bolt, is this. Instead of having an on/off (start/Stop) dedicated button, Scout should move it from the steering wheel to somewhere on the dash or somewhere out of the way and make it a dedicated auxiliary button. This could be used to tell the vehicle to just stay on, or maybe like a physical "dog mode" button, but it would be out of the way and fully optional, for those (like myself) who would prefer a "get in and go" experience.

Or it could be an auxiliary switch for something else like, For example a "software reboot". In my car, I've been having issues with Android Auto. If I walk too far away with the car "on", it refuses to reconnect to the phone, while it's showing that it's connected. The only way to resolve this is to power down the car and wait at least 2 minutes for it to cycle everything to "offline", then I can turn it back on and reconnect. The issue with this is that I don't always have 2 minutes, and the Gen 2 bolt has no way to force a simple reboot. I know holding the button for about 15 seconds, the car will enter service mode, but not reboot. In Rivian (and tesla I believe), you hold two buttons on the wheel until a reboot warning pops up and keep holding to confirm. So why not make this button an easy software reboot; Vehicle in park, at 0 MPH, hold it for a set amount of time to reboot the software, and with that, it can still double as a 1-second press to tell the vehicle to stay on or maybe shut off if you want to sit in silence with no screens or lights.

 

[oldgeeksguide]

That said there’s not really an algorithm to it, (in GM anyway) if you and your key are present the vehicle is ready to boot and go, if you sit with it on and don’t shift for 1-2 hours it shuts off, unless you do the triple press, or if you haven’t done that when you and the key leave a certain radius the vehicle “shuts down”, but there is a power button on the screen so if you need, you can tell it to power off.

That is an algorithm. It’s a simple one, but it’s still in someone else’s control under what circumstances it goes on or off, and probably decided by someone in some committee meeting with lots of groupthink, and they’re never going to think of every situation.

I’m fine with letting folks repurpose it if they want to set it up for for some auto start approach, that makes perfect sense, but for me, I want total simple control over whether the car is on or off, whether I’m sitting in the driver seat or napping in the back, or getting out and wanting the headlights on, or sitting in the drivers seat looking at stars, or even polishing my precious start/stop button wherever they put it, &c, &c.

 

[RodorW]

That is an algorithm. It’s a simple one, but it’s still in someone else’s control under what circumstances it goes on or off, and probably decided by someone in some committee meeting with lots of groupthink, and they’re never going to think of every situation.

I’m fine with letting folks repurpose it if they want to set it up for for some auto start approach, that makes perfect sense, but for me, I want total simple control over whether the car is on or off, whether I’m sitting in the driver seat or napping in the back, or getting out and wanting the headlights on, or sitting in the drivers seat looking at stars, or even polishing my precious start/stop button wherever they put it, &c, &c.

I get where your coming from, but at a certain point I think there’s rules and regulations involved. Sticking with GM for moments they don’t have a “keep” or dog mode, but a service trick to keep it on indefinitely (they might have mentioned a keep mode but I can’t recall if that was real or not, but definitely not in my experience) Tesla and Rivian have keep and camp modes to keep the HVAC and cabin active, but they are under menus. Jumping to my other experience with both Rivian and ICE with Push start, after a certain amount of time they power off it’s easy enough to tell the vehicle to start again, but if you want a “one step” solution for your vehicle to stay on until you decide otherwise you need a key-in ignition. Otherwise you’ll still need a menu to tell it to stay on, in an EV i imagine this is because of lack of noise, that makes it easier to walk away and forget it’s “running” not like that mean much but still things happen and we as humans get distracted or forget. With ICEV even with the engine sound we could be pulled away for one thing and just forget, and with ICEV there’s more danger with emissions and stress on the systems just running

I’ll give my example from my charger, an ICE with Push Start. When I had my eye surgery my partner drove me there and back, but opted to stay in the car they left it running, but it turned itself off twice while I was in the building, but obviously the key was left in the car with them.

 

[Scout_Lookout]

That is an algorithm. It’s a simple one, but it’s still in someone else’s control under what circumstances it goes on or off, and probably decided by someone in some committee meeting with lots of groupthink, and they’re never going to think of every situation.

I’m fine with letting folks repurpose it if they want to set it up for for some auto start approach, that makes perfect sense, but for me, I want total simple control over whether the car is on or off, whether I’m sitting in the driver seat or napping in the back, or getting out and wanting the headlights on, or sitting in the drivers seat looking at stars, or even polishing my precious start/stop button wherever they put it, &c, &c.

I definitely don't want a start/stop button as I have a Rivian and have become accustomed to not having one. However, I would be completely fine with it being in the vehicle as long as I can opt to bypass it. That said, I think SM pretty much has to have at initial launch to satisfy the customer base.

My wonder is that if SM puts in the start/stop button and they allow us to bypass it, but there is a still a default in turning the vehicle on by pressing the brake pedal. In your preference would you still feel that you don't have complete control if this was the case, and if it was would you still prefer the vehicle didn't turn on by doing this? I ask this because I want to help SM become aware of most probabilities.

 

[04Ram2500Hemi]

Maybe only the cool kids with a Harvester will get the Start button…

 

[J Alynn]

As someone that has talked on many different threads about the button, This dedicated thread feels very needed, pooling thoughts and opinions into one place the Scout teams can possibly see.

As stated above I’ve seen some peoples reasonings and that is why I think this thread can hold real value. It’s also why my personal proposal isn’t to delete the button, but move it off the wheel (remove the start/stop text) and give it optional functionality or alternative use possibilities, but have it’s default as the “ignition switch”. Those that like that can keep it that way, others could use it to quickly activate dog mode before exiting the vehicle, and others never touch it at all.

Though if scout does keep the button, regardless of overall purpose, a press and hold for 15-30 seconds should initiate the reboot process and not holding two-three different buttons around the cab.

That said there’s not really an algorithm to it, (in GM anyway) if you and your key are present the vehicle is ready to boot and go, if you sit with it on and don’t shift for 1-2 hours it shuts off, unless you do the triple press, or if you haven’t done that when you and the key leave a certain radius the vehicle “shuts down”, but there is a power button on the screen so if you need, you can tell it to power off. It’s really no different than any other vehicle they make with the push start button, only without the little plastic nuisance..(the button in my car has tendency to not register being pressed some 10-20% of the time, I do think that’s just my car, but felt the need to clarify calling it that)

I’ve started thinking of it as an Easy Button. I personally think it’s the signature circle and maybe it evolves to a silver metallic button with the Scout ‘S’ on it like they have so many other places on the Scout and it becomes the flex button as @RodorW and other have suggested. It’s the command control, the launch button, the pet push, the Detox control etc. no different than the Aux switches you can use for multiple functions this does the same. And having it on the steering wheel is cool to me because nobody has done it. Easy to reach, easy to find

 

[R1TVT]

Touch screens are kind of useless for people with disabilities because there’s no tactile feedback. If you have, say, a visual, motor, or neurological disability, a physical button does you more good than a flat surface or just nothing. You need some sense of control.

Yes, and with no button, and provided you have made a handshake with the truck either with proximity or any kind of "unlock event", that person can simply DRIVE without any extra step. And there is no interaction with a touch screen.

In all the discussion about the button, I have yet to see any talk about what happens when someone needs to make an emergency getaway.

This came up in an earlier thread. No START means faster get away.... Unless you are a thief!

 

[J Alynn]

I definitely don't want a start/stop button as I have a Rivian and have become accustomed to not having one. However, I would be completely fine with it being in the vehicle as long as I can opt to bypass it. That said, I think SM pretty much has to have at initial launch to satisfy the customer base.

My wonder is that if SM puts in the start/stop button and they allow us to bypass it, but there is a still a default in turning the vehicle on by pressing the brake pedal. In your preference would you still feel that you don't have complete control if this was the case, and if it was would you still prefer the vehicle didn't turn on by doing this? I ask this because I want to help SM become aware of most probabilities.

At this time I don’t like the start by pushing brake pedal any more than I want single pedal. Gen 2 can eliminate that as we adapt to EV but those who have had it for a long period had to have felt similar on their first experience so for many of us this is our first experience. Just a what if but what if you are in garage and your 9 year old climbs in out of curiosity and puts foot on brake pedal. It’s unlikely but that stuff happens and it’s much more comforting to know it’s a 2-step process like a traditional ICE vehicle. Just my thoughts but honestly this debate is tiring-like a deadlocked jury on day 4

 

[Scout_Lookout]

At this time I don’t like the start by pushing brake pedal any more than I want single pedal. Gen 2 can eliminate that as we adapt to EV but those who have had it for a long period had to have felt similar on their first experience so for many of us this is our first experience. Just a what if but what if you are in garage and your 9 year old climbs in out of curiosity and puts foot on brake pedal. It’s unlikely but that stuff happens and it’s much more comforting to know it’s a 2-step process like a traditional ICE vehicle. Just my thoughts but honestly this debate is tiring-like a deadlocked jury on day 4

The 9 year old analogy is a valid one. I use to worry about this when my, (at the time 8 year old son) use to sit in my Tesla in my garage and play the racing game that actually used the steering wheel, brake pedal and even accelerator when playing it.

However, as long as there isn't a phone connected to the vehicle or a key fob in it nothing will happen. I even had my phone connected to the car as I was in the living room just on the other side of the wall but in a Tesla and Rivian you have to exit the media area before you can even put it in gear. Even then I would still have to be standing right next to the vehicle for the vehicle to be able to drive.

 

[jeremydunworth]

I know GMs offerings no longer carry a start/stop button, you get in the vehicle connects with the fob, foot on brake and you’re ready to go, and while many a YouTube channel complains about no shut off, there is. If I’m not mistaken, it ann ever present button on the infotainment system. One press to open a sub menu, a second press to confirm your choice and the vehicle will shut down.

Two pushes on a infortainment touch screen to turn off the vehicle? That would be immediate disqualification from consideration for me.

On my current vehicle, I wish there was a button turn the vehicle on and off in accessory mode, because when I plug in to 220V/24A I want to switch to scheduled off peak charging only, and when I plug in to 110V/12A I want always charging. Best I can figure is that push brake, press on button turns on the car. Don't touch brake, push on button puts the car in accessory mode. Push on/off button again in either case turns off the car.

And to the other comment about never having a FOB again, I'd be ok with that if there were a mechanical key. If I have to bring my phone to operate a vehicle again, that is a hard disqualification from me, with the possible exception of a vehicle like the Slate. And even then, I would want the Slate to work without my phone, say if I am moving stuff around on my property and I don't need navigation or radio.

 

[jeremydunworth]

In all the discussion about the button, I have yet to see any talk about what happens when someone needs to make an emergency getaway.

Oh, that's because that problem is solved. For your emergency get away needs you have to plan ahead and hire these guys

 

[Scout_Lookout]

How I imagine @Jamie@ScoutMotors and his team are when trying to determine the start/stop button option.

 

[jeremydunworth]

I definitely don't want a start/stop button as I have a Rivian and have become accustomed to not having one. However, I would be completely fine with it being in the vehicle as long as I can opt to bypass it. That said, I think SM pretty much has to have at initial launch to satisfy the customer base.

My wonder is that if SM puts in the start/stop button and they allow us to bypass it, but there is a still a default in turning the vehicle on by pressing the brake pedal. In your preference would you still feel that you don't have complete control if this was the case, and if it was would you still prefer the vehicle didn't turn on by doing this? I ask this because I want to help SM become aware of most probabilities.

Disclaimer: I am making an assumption here that Scout Motors will primarily sell in North America, and many customers will be people who are coming from gas or diesel vehicles. If I am wrong about that, then maybe my perspective here is also wrong.

That disclaimer out of the way, the most effective thing the salesperson at the Hyundai dealer said, repeatedly, when demonstrating the Ioniq 5 was "it's like a normal car".

I'm interested in Scout Motors, a Terra specifically, because it rejects everything Tesla and to a lesser extent Rivian, which I hear is very nice but I didn't look at them past the price tag. No way I am paying 100K for a vehicle that is not a custom built off roader or track car, if I was in to those sorts of things.

Hopefully that makes some sense. And it could be some useful guidance for thinking about what the Scout interior and controls should be like, are they aiming for seasoned EV owners who are used to and accept all the shenanigans (from the perspective of internal combustion drivers) that go on in EV design (I'm looking at you Elon), or are the targeting people who want a solid reliable truck that is easy to operate with no secret "Konami cheat codes" to get it to just get them and their stuff from point A to point B, with maybe some ungraded dirt roads in between said points?

 

[cyure]

Disclaimer: I am making an assumption here that Scout Motors will primarily sell in North America, and many customers will be people who are coming from gas or diesel vehicles. If I am wrong about that, then maybe my perspective here is also wrong.

That disclaimer out of the way, the most effective thing the salesperson at the Hyundai dealer said, repeatedly, when demonstrating the Ioniq 5 was "it's like a normal car".

I'm interested in Scout Motors, a Terra specifically, because it rejects everything Tesla and to a lesser extent Rivian, which I hear is very nice but I didn't look at them past the price tag. No way I am paying 100K for a vehicle that is not a custom built off roader or track car, if I was in to those sorts of things.

Hopefully that makes some sense. And it could be some useful guidance for thinking about what the Scout interior and controls should be like, are they aiming for seasoned EV owners who are used to and accept all the shenanigans (from the perspective of internal combustion drivers) that go on in EV design (I'm looking at you Elon), or are the targeting people who want a solid reliable truck that is easy to operate with no secret "Konami cheat codes" to get it to just get them and their stuff from point A to point B, with maybe some ungraded dirt roads in between said points?

That’s a good observation. Coming from a 2013 Wrangler with an actual key key when I went and test drove a Rivian a while ago I had no idea it would not have a start stop button.

Rivian lets you take the vehicles for a 45 minute test drive on your own. Well the Rivian employee said here you go, gave me the keys and left. No instructions how anything worked. Nothing. I had no idea what I was doing. I didn’t realize I could hit the gas and go so after about 5 minutes of trying to find a start button I went back into the building. He told me oh you just hit the gas.

Again, that was all the instruction I got. I had no idea how anything worked in that car.

When it gets to the point that we can test drive Scouts the SM employees need to ask would you like a quick run through of the car. I couldn’t concentrate on how great the car drove, I was trying to figure out how to change the temp in the car because I was cold.

 

[speedrye]

I’ve started thinking of it as an Easy Button. I personally think it’s the signature circle and maybe it evolves to a silver metallic button with the Scout ‘S’ on it like they have so many other places on the Scout and it becomes the flex button as @RodorW and other have suggested. It’s the command control, the launch button, the pet push, the Detox control etc. no different than the Aux switches you can use for multiple functions this does the same. And having it on the steering wheel is cool to me because nobody has done it. Easy to reach, easy to find

I really think this is the best course. Just call it the Scout button and allow the driver to program it to one of a few dozen available functions, much like programming the button of a mouse to do what you want on a computer. Start/stop can be the default for the ease of new-to-EV drivers.

 

[Scout_Lookout]

That’s a good observation. Coming from a 2013 Wrangler with an actual key key when I went and test drove a Rivian a while ago I had no idea it would not have a start stop button.

Rivian lets you take the vehicles for a 45 minute test drive on your own. Well the Rivian employee said here you go, gave me the keys and left. No instructions how anything worked. Nothing. I had no idea what I was doing. I didn’t realize I could hit the gas and go so after about 5 minutes of trying to find a start button I went back into the building. He told me oh you just hit the gas.

Again, that was all the instruction I got. I had no idea how anything worked in that car.

When it gets to the point that we can test drive Scouts the SM employees need to ask would you like a quick run through of the car. I couldn’t concentrate on how great the car drove, I was trying to figure out how to change the temp in the car because I was cold.

I hate that your Rivian experience went like that. They are far better now and have "drive specialist" that even after I told them I had a Rivian they still walked me to the car and went over all the vehicle openings, drive functions, and emergency procedures.

Its my hope, and almost assuredly Scout will offer that same kind of experience for their customer test drives as well.

 

[cyure]

I hate that your Rivian experience went like that. They are far better now and have "drive specialist" that even after I told them I had a Rivian they still walked me to the car and went over all the vehicle openings, drive functions, and emergency procedures.

Its my hope, and almost assuredly Scout will offer that same kind of experience for their customer test drives as well.

And that was at the factory showroom! It wasn’t that long ago either. Summer of 24 I think it was. It should have been much better especially happening in Normal.

 

[J Alynn]

How I imagine @Jamie@ScoutMotors and his team are when trying to determine the start/stop button option.

View attachment 15197

Again-since they already have it I think that is less the case. I think they already made the decision on the prototype

 

[J Alynn]

I really think this is the best course. Just call it the Scout button and allow the driver to program it to one of a few dozen available functions, much like programming the button of a mouse to do what you want on a computer. Start/stop can be the default for the ease of new-to-EV drivers.

And if it is the scout ‘S’ logo the ‘S’ stands for Start

 

[jeremydunworth]

I really think this is the best course. Just call it the Scout button and allow the driver to program it to one of a few dozen available functions, much like programming the button of a mouse to do what you want on a computer. Start/stop can be the default for the ease of new-to-EV drivers.

Agreed, except, don't put it on the steering wheel. Put it on the dash, immediately the right of the steering wheel for left hand drive vehicles.

 

[jeremydunworth]

say if I am moving stuff around on my property and I don't need navigation or radio.

Why did I think of this example? Let me share some Scout photos from Sunday. There was a big broken branch on the road. Decent quality wood, I wanted to get it out of the way and maybe find a use for it later, or firewood if that is all it is good for.