Paddle Shifters For Adjusting Regen

[Variable430]

Currently have an EQS and have zero love for one pedal driving. The EQS has paddle shifters to adjust the level of brake regen manually and on the fly - effectively it serves as a synthetic down shift and provides a much more interactive driving experience. I believe the Ioniq has this as well. Please strongly consider adopting this technology and it should include the ability to completely disengage regeneration as one of the modes.

 

[unpossible]

Toyota's system of "Brake-by-wire" / Regen on the brake pedal is the best for "new to EV" drivers to use. The car/computer does some regen when lifting the gas pedal (iirc on the 2008 Prius, it's about 2kW of Regen, to simulate engine drag), and then up to the maximum (20kW) of regen when slowly stepping on the brakes, with a blending of the physical brakes.

Tesla's system of "Full Regen when the accelerator is released" / One-Pedal Driving is the best if you understand it, but does take some getting used to. However, being able to accelerate and/or get the full 76kW of regen on the brake pedal, if you have the setting enabled, is nice.

Have they announced / does anyone know if Scout will take the 'Toyota' approach of "Brake-by-wire / Regen on the brake pedal", or the 'Tesla' approach of "Regen when the accelerator is released"? Sorry arguably this is changing the OP topic slightly, but the approach chosen is relevant to paddles.

Let's call the approaches "ROBP" and "ROAR" since the industry and commentators can't agree on names, and if anything manufacturers seem to intentionally obfuscate the difference to make room to highlight their own proprietary solutions (ROBP manufacturers), or to make room for the OPD proselytizers to loudly declare OPD superior in the hopes of keeping friction-braking and motor-generator systems cost-effectively separate forever in their product pipelines (ROAR-only manufacturers).

Scout software partner Rivian is ROAR-only. Scout parent VW supports ROBP; VW has their "predictive Eco Assistance" approach they actually do a good job of describing here (though they haven't been 'defending' the approach in the marketplace).

Which way will Scout go? Since this is a Suggestion-Box thread, I suggest ROBP (beg it for actually), with full-user-selectability from coast-baby-coast over to full-stop-OPD.

Scout can sensibly close the 'debate' by letting users decide in their profile. Surprisingly, I don't think any manufacturer has taken this high-ground yet that allows a user to set-and-forget either extreme, though any ROBP-supporting one could. I thought it was going to Hyundai and/or Kia to claim this high ground but they seem to be focusing on paddles / don't have the guts. Maybe Scout can still grab it.

Back to the OP, I have paddles on an EV and we never use them. ROAR-only vehicles don't have regen-changing-paddles because in a ROAR-only vehicle they are more likely to reduce efficiency than to do anything useful - if Scouts are ROAR-only, there won't be any paddles. If Scouts support ROBP then paddles may have a place...though ROBP manufacturers, especially European ones, seem to be moving away from regen-changing-paddles, in favor of adaptive solutions. By the time the Scouts are GA, regen-changing-paddles will likely seem to most buyers as useless and/or as older tech...put the $ and space/user-attention elsewhere I say.

 

[cyure]

Have they announced / does anyone know if Scout will take the 'Toyota' approach of "Brake-by-wire / Regen on the brake pedal", or the 'Tesla' approach of "Regen when the accelerator is released"? Sorry arguably this is changing the OP topic slightly, but the approach chosen is relevant to paddles.

Let's call the approaches "ROBP" and "ROAR" since the industry and commentators can't agree on names, and if anything manufacturers seem to intentionally obfuscate the difference to make room to highlight their own proprietary solutions (ROBP manufacturers), or to make room for the OPD proselytizers to loudly declare OPD superior in the hopes of keeping friction-braking and motor-generator systems cost-effectively separate forever in their product pipelines (ROAR-only manufacturers).

Scout software partner Rivian is ROAR-only. Scout parent VW supports ROBP; VW has their "predictive Eco Assistance" approach they actually do a good job of describing here (though they haven't been 'defending' the approach in the marketplace).

Which way will Scout go? Since this is a Suggestion-Box thread, I suggest ROBP (beg it for actually), with full-user-selectability from coast-baby-coast over to full-stop-OPD.

Scout can sensibly close the 'debate' by letting users decide in their profile. Surprisingly, I don't think any manufacturer has taken this high-ground yet that allows a user to set-and-forget either extreme, though any ROBP-supporting one could. I thought it was going to Hyundai and/or Kia to claim this high ground but they seem to be focusing on paddles / don't have the guts. Maybe Scout can still grab it.

Back to the OP, I have paddles on an EV and we never use them. ROAR-only vehicles don't have regen-changing-paddles because in a ROAR-only vehicle they are more likely to reduce efficiency than to do anything useful - if Scouts are ROAR-only, there won't be any paddles. If Scouts support ROBP then paddles may have a place...though ROBP manufacturers, especially European ones, seem to be moving away from regen-changing-paddles, in favor of adaptive solutions. By the time the Scouts are GA, regen-changing-paddles will likely seem to most buyers as useless and/or as older tech...put the $ and space/user-attention elsewhere I say.

Welcome to the community!

 

[AlanL]

Welcome! Nice description of things I knew were issues but did not did not understand in depth. I dearly hope they do something where it will be easy and certain to use only regen to its max until I step on the brake pedal and then immediately back to regen when I let off. And control the amount of regen to control speed both slower and faster. We do a lot of travel trailer towing and absolutely need to be able to go down steep grades with minimal use of the friction brakes.

 

[Scout4x4]

Easy vote.. ROAR (Regen when the accelerator is released).

Let the brake pedal control the hydraulics and the accelerator pedal manage the electric motor. I don't want some transition in my brake pedal feel as it goes from one subsystem to the other.

I personally want max aggressive regen but I can understand others not being use to that yet, so I would hope scout is able to provide degrees of regen for them.

 

[oldgeeksguide]

Have they announced / does anyone know if Scout will take the 'Toyota' approach of "Brake-by-wire / Regen on the brake pedal", or the 'Tesla' approach of "Regen when the accelerator is released"? Sorry arguably this is changing the OP topic slightly, but the approach chosen is relevant to paddles.

Let's call the approaches "ROBP" and "ROAR" since the industry and commentators can't agree on names, and if anything manufacturers seem to intentionally obfuscate the difference to make room to highlight their own proprietary solutions (ROBP manufacturers), or to make room for the OPD proselytizers to loudly declare OPD superior in the hopes of keeping friction-braking and motor-generator systems cost-effectively separate forever in their product pipelines (ROAR-only manufacturers).

Scout software partner Rivian is ROAR-only. Scout parent VW supports ROBP; VW has their "predictive Eco Assistance" approach they actually do a good job of describing here (though they haven't been 'defending' the approach in the marketplace).

Which way will Scout go? Since this is a Suggestion-Box thread, I suggest ROBP (beg it for actually), with full-user-selectability from coast-baby-coast over to full-stop-OPD.

Scout can sensibly close the 'debate' by letting users decide in their profile. Surprisingly, I don't think any manufacturer has taken this high-ground yet that allows a user to set-and-forget either extreme, though any ROBP-supporting one could. I thought it was going to Hyundai and/or Kia to claim this high ground but they seem to be focusing on paddles / don't have the guts. Maybe Scout can still grab it.

Back to the OP, I have paddles on an EV and we never use them. ROAR-only vehicles don't have regen-changing-paddles because in a ROAR-only vehicle they are more likely to reduce efficiency than to do anything useful - if Scouts are ROAR-only, there won't be any paddles. If Scouts support ROBP then paddles may have a place...though ROBP manufacturers, especially European ones, seem to be moving away from regen-changing-paddles, in favor of adaptive solutions. By the time the Scouts are GA, regen-changing-paddles will likely seem to most buyers as useless and/or as older tech...put the $ and space/user-attention elsewhere I say.

Welcome!

What you’re calling “ROAR” is generally referred to as “one pedal driving”, and if you search for that in the forums you’ll find lots of discussion about it. Personally I find the best thing about regen paddles is it gives an easy intuitive way to give drivers a choice. Those who like OPD can set regen to full, those who don’t can set it lower, either zero or somewhere in between. I love the Kia/hyundai EVs precisely because they have the guts to do what makes sense instead of just doing what Tesla does because “that’s the way Tesla does it”, which seems to be what a lot of manufacturers did but are now moving away from. Scout also seems to be focused on doing what makes sense for their market rather than following the crowd, which I think is what most of us find attractive about them.

 

[bsddrake]

Easy vote.. ROAR (Regen when the accelerator is released).

Let the brake pedal control the hydraulics and the accelerator pedal manage the electric motor. I don't want some transition in my brake pedal feel as it goes from one subsystem to the other.

I personally want max aggressive regen but I can understand others not being use to that yet, so I would hope scout is able to provide degrees of regen for them.

I would think that an off-road focused vehicle would require the ability to disable one pedal driving. Automatic Regen rather than the ability to coast seems like it's an accident waiting to happen. On-road, I have less of an opinion, I almost never use it, and my wife only does one pedal driving.

 

[dreamweaver]

Welcome!

What you’re calling “ROAR” is generally referred to as “one pedal driving”, and if you search for that in the forums you’ll find lots of discussion about it. Personally I find the best thing about regen paddles is it gives an easy intuitive way to give drivers a choice. Those who like OPD can set regen to full, those who don’t can set it lower, either zero or somewhere in between. I love the Kia/hyundai EVs precisely because they have the guts to do what makes sense instead of just doing what Tesla does because “that’s the way Tesla does it”, which seems to be what a lot of manufacturers did but are now moving away from. Scout also seems to be focused on doing what makes sense for their market rather than following the crowd, which I think is what most of us find attractive about them.

Well said. I to think this is the best implementation I have seen with the paddles.

 

[dreamweaver]

Have they announced / does anyone know if Scout will take the 'Toyota' approach of "Brake-by-wire / Regen on the brake pedal", or the 'Tesla' approach of "Regen when the accelerator is released"? Sorry arguably this is changing the OP topic slightly, but the approach chosen is relevant to paddles.

Let's call the approaches "ROBP" and "ROAR" since the industry and commentators can't agree on names, and if anything manufacturers seem to intentionally obfuscate the difference to make room to highlight their own proprietary solutions (ROBP manufacturers), or to make room for the OPD proselytizers to loudly declare OPD superior in the hopes of keeping friction-braking and motor-generator systems cost-effectively separate forever in their product pipelines (ROAR-only manufacturers).

Scout software partner Rivian is ROAR-only. Scout parent VW supports ROBP; VW has their "predictive Eco Assistance" approach they actually do a good job of describing here (though they haven't been 'defending' the approach in the marketplace).

Which way will Scout go? Since this is a Suggestion-Box thread, I suggest ROBP (beg it for actually), with full-user-selectability from coast-baby-coast over to full-stop-OPD.

Scout can sensibly close the 'debate' by letting users decide in their profile. Surprisingly, I don't think any manufacturer has taken this high-ground yet that allows a user to set-and-forget either extreme, though any ROBP-supporting one could. I thought it was going to Hyundai and/or Kia to claim this high ground but they seem to be focusing on paddles / don't have the guts. Maybe Scout can still grab it.

Back to the OP, I have paddles on an EV and we never use them. ROAR-only vehicles don't have regen-changing-paddles because in a ROAR-only vehicle they are more likely to reduce efficiency than to do anything useful - if Scouts are ROAR-only, there won't be any paddles. If Scouts support ROBP then paddles may have a place...though ROBP manufacturers, especially European ones, seem to be moving away from regen-changing-paddles, in favor of adaptive solutions. By the time the Scouts are GA, regen-changing-paddles will likely seem to most buyers as useless and/or as older tech...put the $ and space/user-attention elsewhere I say

Scout. “People. Connections. Community. Authenticity." Welcome to the Scout community. Enjoy the ride.

 

[unpossible]

Welcome!

What you’re calling “ROAR” is generally referred to as “one pedal driving”, and if you search for that in the forums you’ll find lots of discussion about it. Personally I find the best thing about regen paddles is it gives an easy intuitive way to give drivers a choice. Those who like OPD can set regen to full, those who don’t can set it lower, either zero or somewhere in between. I love the Kia/hyundai EVs precisely because they have the guts to do what makes sense instead of just doing what Tesla does because “that’s the way Tesla does it”, which seems to be what a lot of manufacturers did but are now moving away from. Scout also seems to be focused on doing what makes sense for their market rather than following the crowd, which I think is what most of us find attractive about them.

Thank you for the welcome! I should have said "ROAR-only" to clearly distinguish it from OPD.

ROAR-only puts a name to the Tesla and Rivian approach of keeping the friction-braking and motor-regex systems separate to save engineering and costs - and with ROAR-only you get a pretty good OPD implementation 'for free'. Tesla did add minimum integration to improve the OPD experience by also 1) automatically using the friction brakes to make OPD always behave the same - i.e. apply friction brakes to mimic regen with the battery is full and 2) automatically use the friction brakes at low speeds to maintain even deacceleration and even come to a complete stop.

OPD can be implemented with or without paddle-regen controls, and it can be implemented on ROAR-only or ROBP-supporting systems. Without researching every vehicle, I bet every vehicle with regen-paddle controls supports ROBP underneath - because what the paddles are doing is shifting how much regen is applied by action of the traditional Brake and Accelerator pedals.

The traditional manufacturers have ROBP support because they had developed it for hybrid cars. Generally Toyota-Hundai-Kia implement Regen paddles to give the user some choice of how to blend ROBP and ROAR. Generally VW-Porshe-BMW-MB implement dynamic systems and argue that paddles are dumb and ROAR-only is lazy-engineering. Generally Tesla-Rivian argue that ROAR-only enables OPD and that is really all people want anyway. Hyndai/Kia have taken the safe-middle route so far of paddles whilst not really arguing the benefits thereof....it is the EV-Pure-Play-Americans and Over-Engineering-Germans taking opposite stands. Maybe Scout can lead.

I'm hoping Scout implements ROBP and let's users configure the car's ROBP-ROAP behavior as part of the user profile.

 

[Cranky Canuck]

Thank you for the welcome! I should have said "ROAR-only" to clearly distinguish it from OPD.

ROAR-only puts a name to the Tesla and Rivian approach of keeping the friction-braking and motor-regex systems separate to save engineering and costs - and with ROAR-only you get a pretty good OPD implementation 'for free'. Tesla did add minimum integration to improve the OPD experience by also 1) automatically using the friction brakes to make OPD always behave the same - i.e. apply friction brakes to mimic regen with the battery is full and 2) automatically use the friction brakes at low speeds to maintain even deacceleration and even come to a complete stop.

OPD can be implemented with or without paddle-regen controls, and it can be implemented on ROAR-only or ROBP-supporting systems. Without researching every vehicle, I bet every vehicle with regen-paddle controls supports ROBP underneath - because what the paddles are doing is shifting how much regen is applied by action of the traditional Brake and Accelerator pedals.

The traditional manufacturers have ROBP support because they had developed it for hybrid cars. Generally Toyota-Hundai-Kia implement Regen paddles to give the user some choice of how to blend ROBP and ROAR. Generally VW-Porshe-BMW-MB implement dynamic systems and argue that paddles are dumb and ROAR-only is lazy-engineering. Generally Tesla-Rivian argue that ROAR-only enables OPD and that is really all people want anyway. Hyndai/Kia have taken the safe-middle route so far of paddles whilst not really arguing the benefits thereof....it is the EV-Pure-Play-Americans and Over-Engineering-Germans taking opposite stands. Maybe Scout can lead.

I'm hoping Scout implements ROBP and let's users configure the car's ROBP-ROAP behavior as part of the user profile.

I agree. I can't stand one-pedal driving and I think the way Tesla has implemented their braking is wrong. Honestly if Scout does regen on accelerator release only that would be a deal-breaker for me. I much prefer the way Hyrundai-Kia have implemented it which gives owners a choice from coasting all the way up to one pedal driving.

I really hope they put the regen on the brake pedal and let us customize the aggressiveness - really I hope they just copy Hyundai-Kia in that regard.

I have an Ioniq 5 and my dad has a Model Y. I really dislike driving the Model Y because of OPD. My Ioniq 5 can do OPD but the difference is you can turn it off if you're like me and prefer a more conventional experience.

I'd also like to say the way Hyundai has blended the regen with the friction brakes is supurb. You can't tell when the regen switches over to friction at low speed. It's seemless. With my old Leaf you could always tell when the transition happened (at 8 km/hr) because you could feel the difference in deceleration but Hyundai has done it perfectly in my car at least. I hope Scout is able to do the same since I now know it's absolutely possible to do!

 

[AlanL]

I'd also like to say the way Hyundai has blended the regen with the friction brakes is supurb. You can't tell when the regen switches over to friction at low speed. It's seemless. With my old Leaf you could always tell when the transition happened (at 8 km/hr) because you could feel the difference in deceleration but Hyundai has done it perfectly in my car at least. I hope Scout is able to do the same since I now know it's absolutely possible to do!

You guys are coming up with feedback I hope gets implemented. Broken record me, blending sounds great for general driving but potentially deadly for towing. Going down the Panamint Grade into Death Valley we have to be absolutely certain that the friction brakes only get applied when the driver wants them applied and that the driver can control speed by adjusting regen. Maybe it is as simple as tow mode making that how it works. And yes, it is our responsibility to not start down the grade with a battery too full to absorb the regen.

 

[cyure]

You guys are coming up with feedback I hope gets implemented. Broken record me, blending sounds great for general driving but potentially deadly for towing. Going down the Panamint Grade into Death Valley we have to be absolutely certain that the friction brakes only get applied when the driver wants them applied and that the driver can control speed by adjusting regen. Maybe it is as simple as tow mode making that how it works. And yes, it is our responsibility to not start down the grade with a battery too full to absorb the regen.

Okay I have a question. I live in Illinois. No hills. How much can you add to a battery with Regen on flat land? I’m not even sure I’m asking the question correctly.

 

[AlanL]

Okay I have a question. I live in Illinois. No hills. How much can you add to a battery with Regen on flat land? I’m not even sure I’m asking the question correctly.

I've never owned an EV so can't quantify, but flat land use is one of the reasons hybrids get great city mileage. Regen is just an alternate form of braking that generates electricity instead of heating up friction pads and metal disks.

 

[Cranky Canuck]

You guys are coming up with feedback I hope gets implemented. Broken record me, blending sounds great for general driving but potentially deadly for towing. Going down the Panamint Grade into Death Valley we have to be absolutely certain that the friction brakes only get applied when the driver wants them applied and that the driver can control speed by adjusting regen. Maybe it is as simple as tow mode making that how it works. And yes, it is our responsibility to not start down the grade with a battery too full to absorb the regen.

There's a lot car makers can do. Regen isn't a new technology (and neither is blending it with friction brakes), it's been around since the first Prius so over a quarter century now. In my car "Snow Mode" limits the regen so there's certainly a lot they can do with something like a "tow mode". If the battery is too full to accept a charge then there is no regen and only the friction brakes are used which is part of the beauty of blending them with friction brakes, you can use either or. In normal use the friction brakes only come in when the speed is too low for regen to be effective.

And regen isn't some new type of brake system, it's simply just using the electric motors to slow the vehicle down. I don't see any issues with towing and I'm sure Scout has lots of clever engineers that will make whatever they decide to do not only work but work safely in all scenarios.

 

[Cranky Canuck]

Okay I have a question. I live in Illinois. No hills. How much can you add to a battery with Regen on flat land? I’m not even sure I’m asking the question correctly.

It depends on what you're doing. In city driving with lots of stop and go it can help quite a bit because you're not constantly throwing away energy as waste heat like you do with a combustion car. That's basically what hybrids do. You won't add much actual range but you will notice your efficiency (mi/kWh or in the civilized world kWh/100 km) increase.

On the highway you can actually sometime see range added when you slow down from highway speed to a stop. I've seen regen add 2 km of range just going from highway speed to a stop as I take an off ramp. No hills needed.

In hilly terrain you'll use more energy getting to the top of a hill than you would on flat land of course but you'll get a lot of that back on the way down. It' won't be a perfect match, there are still some losses but you'll be much better off than a combustion car that just loses range whenever it's on.