Future Model: Scout Sport- Smaller, and more efficient, but still capable.

[CarTechGeek]

I know there are many requests for 2 door Scout as a direct analog to the Bronco/Wrangler 2 doors, but these really don't sell well, despite all the online requests.

That isn't what I have in mind. I'm thinking something more Rav4 like in size and efficiency. This is my ideal sized vehicle, and it is the #1 selling non pickup truck in the USA, so if you want to target a segment after the pickup and mid size SUV, it's a natural target (and would have much more sales than a 2 door Wrangler analog).

I know these are derisively referred to as "Cute-Ute", and universally they have quite low capability, but that is how Scout could stand out from the field. It doesn't have to match it's bigger brothers off road, just clearly best the "Cute Utes". Just a bit better ground clearance, better approach and departure, and crucially an available, real, rear locker would put it far ahead of the "Cute-Utes", while maintaining their practicality, drivability, and park-ability... That would be a stand out in one of the biggest market segments there is...

Call the Sport in comparison to Bronco Sport, or call it Eagle Scout...

 

[R1TVT]

This Scout crowd is naturally going to gravitate toward the 2-door analog for a capable, small 2-door pickup with a bed (as opposed to a cuteute)

But you are correct in terms of sale figures for that type of configuration.

What scout could potentially do is utilize a shorter and more compact platform to create a smaller version of a 2-door SUV AND leverage the same platform to turn what you see below into a 2-door work truck. Then you get sales to the general public of a little SUV AND you get sales to a broad swath of buyers (commercial, small business, owners, tradespeople, urban workers) that would ABSOLUTELY go bonkers for a small, 2-door basic work version of this, but with a pick up bed and no frills. The work truck would be super cheap to build if the platform existed:

 

[CarTechGeek]

This Scout crowd is naturally going to gravitate toward the 2-door analog for a capable, small 2-door pickup with a bed (as opposed to a cuteute)

But you are correct in terms of sale figures for that type of configuration.

What scout could potentially do is utilize a shorter and more compact platform to create a smaller version of a 2-door SUV AND leverage the same platform to turn what you see below into a 2-door work truck. Then you get sales to the general public of a little SUV AND you get sales to a broad swath of buyers (commercial, small business, owners, tradespeople, urban workers) that would ABSOLUTELY go bonkers for a small, 2-door basic work version of this, but with a pick up bed and no frills. The work truck would be super cheap to build if the platform existed:

I'm not seeing that demand at all, anymore than I see current 2 door wranglers and broncos being used as "small work trucks".

That just seems to be an attempt to rationalize another low selling 2 door Bronco/Wrangler analog.

Last time I read about it, 4door Wranglers are outselling 2-door by nearly 10X. It one of those online Vocal minority desires that doesn't turn into real world sales.

OTOH, Rav4 alone easily outsells all of 4 Door Wrangler, 2 Door Wrangler, 4 Door Broncos, and 2 door Broncos combined together.

Potential sales of a Scout Sport in the Rav4 segment, are easily 20X what they are for a 2 door Scout in the Wrangler/Bronco 2 door segment.

Man that picture really suffers from AI-itis.

 

[Mousehunter]

Guess it depends on where you live - whats a Rav4. No, just joking, used to live in Austin - so while I know what they are, I don't see many where I live now.

New company, limited production - make the highest margin vehicle first. Then if sales has not exceeded production capacity, consider cheaper lower margin products.

That said, the smaller vehicle market is not only lower margin, it is more saturated.
---
Where I live, the most common vehicle is the full sized truck, followed probably by either Jeeps/'Wranglers or full sized SUV's. Not everywhere is the crowded city.

 

[R1TVT]

I'm not seeing that demand at all, anymore than I see current 2 door wranglers and broncos being used as "small work trucks".

That just seems to be an attempt to rationalize another low selling 2 door Bronco/Wrangler analog.

Last time I read about it, 4door Wranglers are outselling 2-door by nearly 10X. It one of those online Vocal minority desires that doesn't turn into real world sales.

OTOH, Rav4 alone easily outsells all of 4 Door Wrangler, 2 Door Wrangler, 4 Door Broncos, and 2 door Broncos combined together.

Potential sales of a Scout Sport in the Rav4 segment, are easily 20X what they are for a 2 door Scout in the Wrangler/Bronco 2 door segment.

Man that picture really suffers from AI-itis.

Yep - it is completely AI generated (not a fan, just scraped from the internet). Looks a lot better than a Rav4 though.

Nobody has implemented a decent 2-door work truck well IMHO, and a 2-door wrangler or bronco is not at all what I am talking about.

Rivian launched the R2 & R3 lines with sales and lower, more accessible MSRP's in mind. I'm guessing it's less about the exact % profit per vehicle and much more about mass appeal and big volume. This is why having a vehicle like the R2 or R3 could (possibly) make a smaller 2-door work truck possible for Scout Motors. If it is truly bare bones enough and could come off the same tooling and same line, maybe Scout could justify it in the future. The future is a ways off.

R2: https://rivian.com/r2
R3: https://rivian.com/r3

 

[CarTechGeek]

Guess it depends on where you live - whats a Rav4. No, just joking, used to live in Austin - so while I know what they are, I don't see many where I live now.

New company, limited production - make the highest margin vehicle first. Then if sales has not exceeded production capacity, consider cheaper lower margin products.

That said, the smaller vehicle market is not only lower margin, it is more saturated.
---
Where I live, the most common vehicle is the full sized truck, followed probably by either Jeeps/'Wranglers or full sized SUV's. Not everywhere is the crowded city.

But for a companies bottom line, it's not about what you see locally in your neighborhood, but what sells volume nationally, and this isn't about Pickup trucks, Scout already has that covered.

It's about what's next a 2door Wrangler competitor, or a Rav4 competitor.

In the USA for 2023, Toyota sold about 435K Rav4's. Jeep doesn't break out the numbers, but they only about 156K Wranglers combined, And if 10% of that was 2-doors, that only about 16K.

As far as being "saturated". Unless there is a shortage, all the segments are "saturated". More are less players are just cutting the pie into more slices.

Looking just at the top 25 sellers, here is what sold in the 2 door segment:

Nothing. You have to assume 16K Wranglers or so Wrangler, and it makes the list because it's mixed in with 4door Wranglers, bring up total numbers to make the list.

That 435K Rav4 is joined by, 361K CRVs, 271K Rogues, 212K Equinoxes, 209K Tuscons, 153K CX-5s, 152K Foresters, 140K Escapes...

That gives some idea of the scale of this segment: It's about 2 Million.

The scale of the to the 2door Bronco/Wrangler segment might generously be about 50K.

I'd much rather fight for a slice of 2 million, than a slice of 50K...

 

[Chuckles]

It's too bad the Suzuki Jimny isn't sold in the USA. They're pretty cool. I saw a bunch of them recently in South Africa. The Land Cruiser series 70 is still available there too.

 

[dleepnw]

They teased a smaller SUV as well as a two door version of the Traveler at the reveal (maybe even a two door Terra but hard to tell from the pic).

https://scoutmotors.community.forum/threads/missing-the-mark.1122/post-12419

 

[CarTechGeek]

Everything just keeps getting bigger. Though a 2Door Wrangler is still quite small:

Length (inches) 166.8 (that includes the spare), so it would be under 160" without the spare and carrier.
Width, without mirrors (inches) 73.9

Probably the Wrangler is shorter than a 1970's Scout II.

The problem with a modern Short Wheel Base EV (aside from it's tiny niche appeal), is that is where the batteries go (between the front and rear axles), so it would have diminished range.

 

[J Alynn]

They teased a smaller SUV as well as a two door version of the Traveler at the reveal (maybe even a two door Terra but hard to tell from the pic).

https://scoutmotors.community.forum/threads/missing-the-mark.1122/post-12419

We are assuming a two door but that sheet covers enough to leave it open to a small 4-door

 

[dleepnw]

We are assuming a two door but that sheet covers enough to leave it open to a small 4-door

True. I guess I'm also basing it on the fact that they seem very cognizant of the past history of Scout and thus would eventually offer a two-door but yeah, who knows.

 

[J Alynn]

True. I guess I'm also basing it on the fact that they seem very cognizant of the past history of Scout and thus would eventually offer a two-door but yeah, who knows.

Agree. There were some rumors that they are planning but until battery sizes can shrink and still maintain range it may sit on the shelf greeting SM staff each day. I’m hoping 4 years later so I can justify purchasing that after the traveler ?

 

[OleScout]

I'm all in for team 2door! Just went from 4 to 2 doors today.

 

[Mousehunter]

Rav4, Patriot, CRV - they do sell, but I think they sell in a more budget oriented market. Just looked, seems like a loaded Rav4 is about 35k. The Rav4 hybrid (not plug in) I saw was 45k + 5k of dealer add ons. I guess there must be a market for a 50k Rav4 (or the dealer would not have been adding 5k of options), not sure how big of market...

I don't have any problems with them producing anything they think the can sell at a profit (I do have a bit of a problem with the goverment forcing them to sell small vehicles at nearly cost, and being forced to jack up the margin on full sized vehicles to cover the loss). But, honestly, they need to focus on higher margin vehicles first - both to set a tone, and to have the profit to sell lower margin vehicles latter. Not to mention, market segmentation comes into play. Offer something for a broad budget range of buyers, but try to get the most out of each buyer as possible. I suspect Scout will end up doing this as well - using the existing Scout platform for an upscale Audi full sized SUV.
---
Sure, some people want smaller vehicles because they are easier to park and less stressful for city driving - kind of why I have a Golf. I never stressed driving a full sized 2dr truck in traffic, nor did I really stress with a 1/2 ton quad cab (accept for a few parking garages). I really do not enjoy city driving in my F250. But, after doing it - I feel like our Wrangler is a mid-sized vehicle (partially because of it's turning radius). Plus smaller vehicles by their nature are more economical. Not everyone has 20k+ so spend on a full sized suv that gets 1/2 the gas mileage. But the people who do are less stressed about price, and they tend to be the profit margin of the company. There is a reason for years, Ford produced low cost, high mpg vehicles - to balance out their fleet gas mileage so they could continue to make bank on full sized trucks. With EV's, I don't think fleet mpg really applies anymore.

 

[CarTechGeek]

I don't have any problems with them producing anything they think the can sell at a profit (I do have a bit of a problem with the goverment forcing them to sell small vehicles at nearly cost, and being forced to jack up the margin on full sized vehicles to cover the loss).

Government rules don't force anyone to sell small vehicles. They do the opposite.

They incentivize selling large vehicles and have done so for decades. Classifying a vehicle as an SUV or Truck lets them skate buy on more lax fuel economy standards. But I suppose that's OK because it's an incentive for big trucks?

Even the new EV tax credits, have higher price price cutoff if it's a Truck/SUV/Van, significantly less if it's a car:

The vehicle's manufacturer suggested retail price (MSRP) can't exceed:

• $80,000 for vans, sport utility vehicles and pickup trucks
• $55,000 for other vehicles

Rav4, Patriot, CRV - they do sell, but I think they sell in a more budget oriented market.

I'd call it a mainstream market. It's the most popular size of SUV by far.

But, honestly, they need to focus on higher margin vehicles first - both to set a tone, and to have the profit to sell lower margin vehicles latter.

Hence why I said: "Future model". They have to get established, and profitable before they worry about another all new model.

But it will be no easy task making decent margins in full size EV Trucks/SUVs either.

Ask Ford how much margin they are making on the F150 Lightning, selling for more than $60K with a smaller battery...

 

[oldgeeksguide]

Government rules don't force anyone to sell small vehicles. They do the opposite.

They incentivize selling large vehicles and have done so for decades. Classifying a vehicle as an SUV or Truck lets them skate buy on more lax fuel economy standards. But I suppose that's OK because it's an incentive for big trucks?

Even the new EV tax credits, have higher price price cutoff if it's a Truck/SUV/Van, significantly less if it's a car:







I'd call it a mainstream market. It's the most popular size of SUV by far.




Hence why I said: "Future model". They have to get established, and profitable before they worry about another all new model.

But it will be no easy task making decent margins in full size EV Trucks/SUVs either.

Ask Ford how much margin they are making on the F150 Lightning, selling for more than $60K with a smaller battery...

In a recent interview, Ford CEO noted that with traditional ICE vehicles, larger vehicles result in higher margins, while it’s the opposite with EVs, because the batteries have to be so big and they’re so expensive. I suppose as batteries get cheaper that could change, but that’s why he’s been talking up smaller vehicles, though not always successfully. I’d love a smaller scout someday, but it’ll probably take some time.

 

[CarTechGeek]

In a recent interview, Ford CEO noted that with traditional ICE vehicles, larger vehicles result in higher margins, while it’s the opposite with EVs, because the batteries have to be so big and they’re so expensive. I suppose as batteries get cheaper that could change, but that’s why he’s been talking up smaller vehicles, though not always successfully. I’d love a smaller scout someday, but it’ll probably take some time.

I saw a couple of interviews where CEO, Jim Farley talked about that. He really seems to have a good handle on all this stuff, but still Ford is really struggling with it's EVs.

I thought at EV F150 would be an easy Win. It's literally the same truck as the most popular vehicle in the USA, except turned into an EV. Already a familiar form fact with a lot of aftermarket parts that would work.

But the problem is just as he said, Big Vehicles need massive batteries that just wrecks pricing and profits.

For this market a Range Extender may be necessary.

Harvester may be the thing that makes Scout relevant if it's well executed (no pressure).

 

[rfk]

Anything in Scout history to suggest whether the doors on a 2-door might be longer than front doors on the 4-door? Or might be same doors with the rear doors just 'paneled-up'?

Longer doors mean more shoulder and elbow room - a win for tall drivers.

 

[Sammysam94]

I also think a smaller 4 door would be a good idea. Especially if it still had the range extender. I bet that would sell well.

 

[J Alynn]

I also think a smaller 4 door would be a good idea. Especially if it still had the range extender. I bet that would sell well.

Would be good but I suspect the range extender wouldn’t happen. Having the narrower wheelbase means less area under the vehicle so less batteries. Then taking away more for the generator would probably be tough to have a significant net gain. I think extender on that size vehicle would make more sense than the traveler but as said, I don’t know if cost and space would justify enough of a range gain