The Start/Stop Button

[RodorW]

I know that we have talked multiple times on this forum about the on/off (start/stop) button. Personally, I don't think it's necessary, but I have heard the use cases for some people who want it, but looking at the bigger picture, this is why I wanted to start a new thread specifically on this topic.

In the bigger picture, start/stop buttons on electric vehicles are not really necessary, and going forward from Gen 1 to Gen 2, If the start/stop button makes it into Gen 1, how likely is it to make it into Gen 2? And I know a bunch of people have said that coming from an ice vehicle, they're used to the start/stop button and it's just more accommodating and comfortable. However, there's really no way around the button being a band-aid situation, whether it's Gen 1 or Gen 2. If Scout removes it, it's going to be a thing that people just have to get used to, whereas in Gen 1, if Scout makes it optional, (either physically or in software) a lot of people will choose to use it and then, going into Gen 2, if there is no button, it's going to be the Band-Aid again. It's going to get yanked off (sooner or later), and it's going to be a whole thing.

So my shower thought of the day, because I really hate the button in my Bolt, is this. Instead of having an on/off (start/Stop) dedicated button, Scout should move it from the steering wheel to somewhere on the dash or somewhere out of the way and make it a dedicated auxiliary button. This could be used to tell the vehicle to just stay on, or maybe like a physical "dog mode" button, but it would be out of the way and fully optional, for those (like myself) who would prefer a "get in and go" experience.

Or it could be an auxiliary switch for something else like, For example a "software reboot". In my car, I've been having issues with Android Auto. If I walk too far away with the car "on", it refuses to reconnect to the phone, while it's showing that it's connected. The only way to resolve this is to power down the car and wait at least 2 minutes for it to cycle everything to "offline", then I can turn it back on and reconnect. The issue with this is that I don't always have 2 minutes, and the Gen 2 bolt has no way to force a simple reboot. I know holding the button for about 15 seconds, the car will enter service mode, but not reboot. In Rivian (and tesla I believe), you hold two buttons on the wheel until a reboot warning pops up and keep holding to confirm. So why not make this button an easy software reboot; Vehicle in park, at 0 MPH, hold it for a set amount of time to reboot the software, and with that, it can still double as a 1-second press to tell the vehicle to stay on or maybe shut off if you want to sit in silence with no screens or lights.

 

[THil08]

My Audi Q6 has a start/stop button but doesn't require me to use it if I don't want to. I think we will be good on all this.

Will i be able to program the start stop button to my train horn i want to put on my Scout?

 

[strider]

At this time I don’t like the start by pushing brake pedal any more than I want single pedal. Gen 2 can eliminate that as we adapt to EV but those who have had it for a long period had to have felt similar on their first experience so for many of us this is our first experience. Just a what if but what if you are in garage and your 9 year old climbs in out of curiosity and puts foot on brake pedal. It’s unlikely but that stuff happens and it’s much more comforting to know it’s a 2-step process like a traditional ICE vehicle. Just my thoughts but honestly this debate is tiring-like a deadlocked jury on day 4

Just don't give them the key? Also, a Start button won't slow down a 9 year old. They have watched you push the start button hundreds of times - they know what to do if they want to drive.

If you are really worried, Tesla has a security feature called "PIN to drive" where you have to enter a PIN in order to drive the car. Again, a 9 year old will have seen the PIN but you could enable that when your kids are young and/or you're worried about it and then disable it when you no longer feels it's necessary.

 

[strider]

That is an algorithm. It’s a simple one, but it’s still in someone else’s control under what circumstances it goes on or off, and probably decided by someone in some committee meeting with lots of groupthink, and they’re never going to think of every situation.

I’m fine with letting folks repurpose it if they want to set it up for for some auto start approach, that makes perfect sense, but for me, I want total simple control over whether the car is on or off, whether I’m sitting in the driver seat or napping in the back, or getting out and wanting the headlights on, or sitting in the drivers seat looking at stars, or even polishing my precious start/stop button wherever they put it, &c, &c.

But how many times are you "looking at the stars" or "needing the headlights on" vs just getting into the car and driving and then getting out of the car and going inside? I'm am guessing it is at least 100:1. So you want to add 30 seconds of waiting and pushing useless buttons to every drive for that 1/100 you need something different? For that 1/100 time there could be an "On/Off" button on the screen. It could appear automatically whenever the vehicle is in Park so you would not have to navigate any menus.

I am all for tactility and Tesla's relentless desire to remove all physical controls is the main reason I am here. But this button literally serves no purpose in an EV (or an EREV - the Start/Stop button will NOT start the Harvester engine).

 

[strider]

Hopefully that makes some sense. And it could be some useful guidance for thinking about what the Scout interior and controls should be like, are they aiming for seasoned EV owners who are used to and accept all the shenanigans (from the perspective of internal combustion drivers) that go on in EV design (I'm looking at you Elon), or are the targeting people who want a solid reliable truck that is easy to operate with no secret "Konami cheat codes" to get it to just get them and their stuff from point A to point B, with maybe some ungraded dirt roads in between said points?

There are no cheat codes. I have no idea what that weird GM thing about dancing on the brake pedal is about. That is definitely not present in any clean sheet EV models (which Scout is).

What is the process in an ICE? Unlock the car, sit in the seat, push button to start engine, press the brake pedal, use gear selector to choose direction, drive. At the end of the drive, hold the brake pedal, shift into park, push button to stop engine, exit car.

What is the process in an EV? Unlock the car, sit in the seat, press the brake pedal, use gear selector to choose direction, drive. At the end of the drive, hold the brake pedal, shift into park, exit car.

To go into slightly more detail, when you push the start button in an ICE, the dashboard lights up, seat belt chimes, and all that stuff. The same thing happens in an EV when you press the brake pedal. The vehicle communicates to you that it is "on" by doing all the same stuff that an ICE does when you start the engine. You have to trust me that there will be no confusion as to whether the car is "on" and ready to drive.

Mad props to Chris and the Scout design team - the vehicles are a stunning blend of old and new. But Chris came from the ICE world and it feels like there is some baggage there.

As a compromise I like @J Alynn's idea of a silver "Scout" button that can be a kind of macro button that allows you to choose its function.

Lastly, I would be thrilled to be part of any human factors studies. I have 16 years of EV experience that I am happy to share. Nearly all of that is in Teslas but I did have a Volvo XC40 Recharge for a while (and it did not have a Start/Stop button incidentally). I am happy to fly myself in any time. Looks like there is an airport in Winnsboro like 10 miles away from Blythewood. I can be there in 2 and a half hours. Or I can be in Novi in 2 hours...

 

[purplesnow]

What if we keep the button, but make it a tiny screen that can show various icons/text and therefore do different things at different times. If the drivers wants it set as a Start/Stop, that’s possible. If they want it as a quick mute button, that’s also possible.

Personally, I’d go for the unlabeled “big red button” that would put it in track mode, lower suspension, improve handling & throttle responsiveness, do cool lighting & screen graphics, maybe even start the Tron: Legacy soundtrack album.

Purple would engage Prince (R.I.P.) mode that makes everything purple, play Purple Rain, etc. Show the Prince icon on the button.

Pride mode would be a rainbow icon & play Lady Gaga’s Born This Way.

Show Olaf’s face on the button and would play the Frozen soundtrack for the kiddos.

Quick-engage pet mode.

etc etc etc

 

[strider]

It sounds like to me that we are getting both. We are getting a start/stop button but we will have the functionality of NFC which to me means, (hopefully) that if want we can bypass the button if we have our phone, fob, or potentially key card to do so. I do love hearing that we can just walk away and it will shut off once the NFC distance is exceeded. This is exactly how I use my Rivian, I just hop out, walk away, and I hear the lock sound a feet away from my truck. I love that feature, so much better than digging for a fob to lock the vehicle, or standing at the door holding the door handle until it locks.

But it needs to work both ways on startup too. Why have to do extra things in order to drive when they serve no purpose? Why not make you stand in front of a camera and do a pirouette before the car will turn on?

Ok, I'm going to go sit in the corner for a while......

 

[jeremydunworth]

But how many times are you "looking at the stars" or "needing the headlights on" vs just getting into the car and driving and then getting out of the car and going inside? I'm am guessing it is at least 100:1. So you want to add 30 seconds of waiting and pushing useless buttons to every drive for that 1/100 you need something different? For that 1/100 time there could be an "On/Off" button on the screen. It could appear automatically whenever the vehicle is in Park so you would not have to navigate any menus.

I am all for tactility and Tesla's relentless desire to remove all physical controls is the main reason I am here. But this button literally serves no purpose in an EV (or an EREV - the Start/Stop button will NOT start the Harvester engine).

I am getting in the car and changing the charging settings approximately 1:4. During the week, I charge at work from 110. Once a week I charge at home overnight from 220 and I want to use scheduled charging off peak only. During the weekend, I need to switch back to all the time charging when I am charging from 110V solar at our cabin or neighbors 220V output solar array.

Could Hyundai do something smarter where based on location and voltage it knows if I want to use scheduled or always charging? Probably, but that would be a whole hassle of software. And I am a hardware person, I'd rather keep the software as simple as possible as I know people who write software.

 

[jeremydunworth]

What is the process in an EV? Unlock the car, sit in the seat, press the brake pedal, use gear selector to choose direction, drive. At the end of the drive, hold the brake pedal, shift into park, exit car.

<snip>

I have 16 years of EV experience that I am happy to share. Nearly all of that is in Teslas but I did have a Volvo XC40 Recharge for a while (and it did not have a Start/Stop button incidentally). I am happy to fly myself in any time. Looks like there is an airport in Winnsboro like 10 miles away from Blythewood. I can be there in 2 and a half hours. Or I can be in Novi in 2 hours...

I have, checks calendar, counts on fingers, 5 months of EV driving experience.

Consider the alternative process in the EV
unlock car, sit in seat, press start. One less step to get the car electronics turned on. I can then, after getting radio and map all set up on Android auto, select direction, press accelerator pedal to go.
At the end of drive, park car, press off, exit car.
This is what I do in the Hyundai Ioniq 5. You would be surprised how much trouble I have with the step "put car in park", I regularly forget to do this despite over 3 decades of driving. Perhaps because the first 15 years of driving were mostly in a manual 2WD Toyota Tacoma, where if I remember correctly the end of drive procedure was, put car in 1st gear, turn off car.
In the Hyundai, the car can put itself in park when I push the stop button. So same number of steps, slightly different sequence of events.

To be clear here, I'm not saying your way of doing it is wrong. I'm saying different people have different habits and preferences. Being dogmatic about how a car must be designed is not really helpful.

Edit: changed "over 4 decades" to "over 3 decades", because sometimes I make mistakes at math

 

[strider]

I am getting in the car and changing the charging settings approximately 1:4. During the week, I charge at work from 110. Once a week I charge at home overnight from 220 and I want to use scheduled charging off peak only. During the weekend, I need to switch back to all the time charging when I am charging from 110V solar at our cabin or neighbors 220V output solar array.

Could Hyundai do something smarter where based on location and voltage it knows if I want to use scheduled or always charging? Probably, but that would be a whole hassle of software. And I am a hardware person, I'd rather keep the software as simple as possible as I know people who write software.

Tesla remembers charge preferences based on location so that has a known solution. They do the same for liftgate height and mirror folding. I am not aware of it saving preferences based on voltage but I can't say that I've tried.

As for getting in and changing the charge settings, if you just open the door, peck around on the screen, and don't press the brake pedal, the car will not "turn on" so I fail to see how a Start/Stop button makes a difference here?

 

[RodorW]

There are no cheat codes. I have no idea what that weird GM thing about dancing on the brake pedal is about. That is definitely not present in any clean sheet EV models (which Scout is).

Assuming your referring to the tap the break then accelerator, it will show a message on screen saying the vehicle will not shout off, park outside for emissions, so it’s clearly a left over from their ICEVs to presumably get past the “auto off” for servicing

Edit for clarification, I know a lot of modern vehicles have the stop and go engine thing for emissions. That’s not what I’m referring to when I say auto off. To my knowledge every ICEV with a push button start will turn its self off after a certain amount of time with no input, (my charge was 45 to an hour, my bolt is 2 hours) and that is specifically what I am referring to with auto off.

 

[strider]

Consider the alternative process in the EV
unlock car, sit in seat, press start. One less step to get the car electronics turned on. I can then, after getting radio and map all set up on Android auto, select direction, press accelerator pedal to go.
At the end of drive, park car, press off, exit car.
This is what I do in the Hyundai Ioniq 5. You would be surprised how much trouble I have with the step "put car in park", I regularly forget to do this despite over 4 decades of driving. Perhaps because the first 15 years of driving were mostly in a manual 2WD Toyota Tacoma, where if I remember correctly the end of drive procedure was, put car in 1st gear, turn off car.
In the Hyundai, the car can put itself in park when I push the stop button. So same number of steps, slightly different sequence of events.

To be clear here, I'm not saying your way of doing it is wrong. I'm saying different people have different habits and preferences. Being dogmatic about how a car must be designed is not really helpful.

I am assuming you still need to press and hold the brake pedal before you can shift?

Here is how that goes in a Tesla...

Open the door. Car "wakes up" and center screen turns on. You can mess with the navigation, radio, HVAC, etc all you want. When you are ready to drive you press the brake pedal and the screen in front of the wheel "wakes up" seat belt chimes, etc. Select D or R and drive away. I still don't see what pressing a Start/Stop button does here?

As for forgetting to select Park, I am the same. Tesla helps me out here. I pull into the garage, use the brake when I want to stop. Take foot off brake (car holds automatically), remove seatbelt and car automatically shifts into Park. Exit car.

 

[jeremydunworth]

Tesla remembers charge preferences based on location so that has a known solution. They do the same for liftgate height and mirror folding. I am not aware of it saving preferences based on voltage but I can't say that I've tried.

As for getting in and changing the charge settings, if you just open the door, peck around on the screen, and don't press the brake pedal, the car will not "turn on" so I fail to see how a Start/Stop button makes a difference here?

I dislike screens so I have not "peck around on the screen" in the Hyundai Ioniq 5. I will try this and see what happens. My experience so far is that when I get in the Hyundai and push the start button it asks me to confirm which person is driving. When I program the car to do something before I get in, using Hyundai Bluelink, the push start, select driver is skipped, and normally the selected driver is not the correct one. Yes, this is sort of user error on my part, but this brings up a philosphical question, when a student does not pass math class whose fault is it, the student or the teacher? Often there is an element of both being at fault.

 

[strider]

I dislike screens so I have not "peck around on the screen" in the Hyundai Ioniq 5. I will try this and see what happens. My experience so far is that when I get in the Hyundai and push the start button it asks me to confirm which person is driving. When I program the car to do something before I get in, using Hyundai Bluelink, the push start, select driver is skipped, and normally the selected driver is not the correct one. Yes, this is sort of user error on my part, but this brings up a philosphical question, when a student does not pass math class whose fault is it, the student or the teacher? Often there is an element of both being at fault.

Sorry, I thought you were referring to getting into the car to change the charging settings on the screen (that's what I meant by peck around on the screen).

 

[jeremydunworth]

I am assuming you still need to press and hold the brake pedal before you can shift?

I don't know. From years of driving ICE I just put my right foot on the brake pedal. If the car is set in whatever mode it is that it does not move unless you push the accelerator, there should be no reason to need to press the brake pedal to shift in F or R.
I have the car set to when you don''t touch the brake or the accelerator and you are in F, the car rolls forward slowly. I tried the other mode, don't move until press accelerator, and I found the gentle rolling start like an ICE vehicle with automotive transmission was just easier to get smooth starts that don't jerk the car forward and upset my dog.

Here is how that goes in a Tesla...

Open the door. Car "wakes up" and center screen turns on. You can mess with the navigation, radio, HVAC, etc all you want. When you are ready to drive you press the brake pedal and the screen in front of the wheel "wakes up" seat belt chimes, etc. Select D or R and drive away. I still don't see what pressing a Start/Stop button does here?

I don't want the car to wake up when I open the door, I spend a lot of time loading stuff in the car for trips and I can easily open the car 10 or so times before I need the center screen to turn on.
As far as I have experienced in the Hyundai, the start button signals the car to turn on the infotainment screen. This is what I prefer.

As for forgetting to select Park, I am the same. Tesla helps me out here. I pull into the garage, use the brake when I want to stop. Take foot off brake (car holds automatically), remove seatbelt and car automatically shifts into Park. Exit car.

That is good news and I'm glad Tesla handles that well. I have heard recently that Tesla does not have 360 degree camera view when parking and does not have auto stop the car when a car is detected passing behind you when you are backing out of your driveway or parking space. The Hyundai has both of these and as the only accident I was judged at fault (it was not my fault the crazy guy speeding down my street was the problem in my opinion) was when I backing out my driveway and was hit by a very angry biology professor who the first thing he said was "this is the second time this year this has happenned the other one was a garbage truck", I really appreciate the, "there is an idiot speeding behind you, don't back up right now" feature in the Hyundai. Which again, I have heard Tesla does not have, but I don't have personal verification of that.

 

[jeremydunworth]

Sorry, I thought you were referring to getting into the car to change the charging settings on the screen (that's what I meant by peck around on the screen).

No worries. I also see part of my problem here. You mentioned get in car, don't put foot on brake pedal. I had do some math here, 34 years of driving gas cars, it is pretty hard to not put my right foot on the brake pedal when I get in the car. Except oddly in my '73 scout, where the procedure is
- climb into driver seat, fiddle around under dash to flip the hidden kill switch, put right foot on brake, turn key to start, release E-brake, put truck in gear, check surroundings, go.

Why do I need a hidden kill switch, well, let me tell you about the morning I got up early walked outside and found my lights turned on. I thought I had left the lights on, boy was I surprised when I found a homeless person in my truck trying to turn it on. They had climbed in through the rear hatch, which at the time I was having trouble locking.

 

[J Alynn]

Just don't give them the key? Also, a Start button won't slow down a 9 year old. They have watched you push the start button hundreds of times - they know what to do if they want to drive.

If you are really worried, Tesla has a security feature called "PIN to drive" where you have to enter a PIN in order to drive the car. Again, a 9 year old will have seen the PIN but you could enable that when your kids are young and/or you're worried about it and then disable it when you no longer feels it's necessary.

My daughter is pushing 22 and has had driver training so she can tear it up anytime. Just thinking about those rare instances when something tragic happens because the scenario just want ever thought of that causes a catastrophic event. Since Jamie mention the button is stying I’m cool and if it can be programmable even better

 

[J Alynn]

I am assuming you still need to press and hold the brake pedal before you can shift?

Here is how that goes in a Tesla...

Open the door. Car "wakes up" and center screen turns on. You can mess with the navigation, radio, HVAC, etc all you want. When you are ready to drive you press the brake pedal and the screen in front of the wheel "wakes up" seat belt chimes, etc. Select D or R and drive away. I still don't see what pressing a Start/Stop button does here?

As for forgetting to select Park, I am the same. Tesla helps me out here. I pull into the garage, use the brake when I want to stop. Take foot off brake (car holds automatically), remove seatbelt and car automatically shifts into Park. Exit car.

I’m just amazed at the amount of debate on this button. It’s literally 1/3 second more as you move your arm across to hit it. I get some don’t like and others want. We all get it doesn’t need to exist but at the risk of offending others-and only saying it to make a point-I don’t have a baby or a damn pet so why put the pet mode in? Reason-they can, it’s fairly easy, people romanticize about their dog next to them on the bench. And I’m 100% cool with it. However, to me, having your dog on a front bench seat with risk of a head on collision is a lack of love for your pet-but again, I don’t care! It’s a button. Jamie already implied you won’t need to use it but literally this debate continues and to what direction or outcome. The button eases the minds of many of us who don’t have an EV so it’s a transition element. And to add fuel to the fire, our brand new Lexus RZ EV has a start button-and my wife loves that. But we are the 50’s age range so maybe a lot of button Y or N is an age demographic ???

 

[cyure]

I’m just amazed at the amount of debate on this button. It’s literally 1/3 second more as you move your arm across to hit it. I get some don’t like and others want. We all get it doesn’t need to exist but at the risk of offending others-and only saying it to make a point-I don’t have a baby or a damn pet so why put the pet mode in? Reason-they can, it’s fairly easy, people romanticize about their dog next to them on the bench. And I’m 100% cool with it. However, to me, having your dog on a front bench seat with risk of a head on collision is a lack of love for your pet-but again, I don’t care! It’s a button. Jamie already implied you won’t need to use it but literally this debate continues and to what direction or outcome. The button eases the minds of many of us who don’t have an EV so it’s a transition element. And to add fuel to the fire, our brand new Lexus RZ EV has a start button-and my wife loves that. But we are the 50’s age range so maybe a lot of button Y or N is an age demographic ???

I just don’t see this as a hill to die on, but that’s just me.

 

[RodorW]

maybe a lot of button Y or N is an age demographic ???

To be honest, I think age plays a part, but largely I think it’s experience. You can feel one way about something until you try it for yourself to know how you really feel. But like EREV is a bandaid for many with concerns of range anxiety, the button is similar in that regard

 

[J Alynn]

To be honest, I think age plays a part, but largely I think it’s experience. You can feel one way about something until you try it for yourself to know how you really feel. But like EREV is a bandaid for many with concerns of range anxiety, the button is similar in that regard

Exactly