Longer Range battery option

[hardieib]

I would love to have a pure EV option that would hit the 500-600 mile range mark as an optional upgrade. For me that would be the tipping point between pure EV and the Harvester option.

 

[dreamweaver]

The following is based on the NMC batteries; LFP hasn’t been in trucks in enough different configurations to do this kind of analysis. And Scout isn’t likely to use LFP for their BEV.


Before the 2025 package/options changes, the Ford Lightning Extended Range battery was $10k more than the Standard range.
Standard range useable energy was 98 kWh, range was 240 miles.
Extended range useable energy was 131 kWh, range was 320 miles.

That’s $10k for 33 kWh, $10k for a 34% increase in battery capacity (and 33.3% range increase). That’s $303/1% increase in capacity, $294/1% range increase.

Long distance range is not impacted by weight very much, so for this purpose, we can ignore the extra weight.

To go from 350 miles range to 500 miles range, you need to add 150 miles = 43% range increase, which can be assumed to be a 43% battery energy increase.

Assuming the same $/%, A Scout with 500 miles range would experience a $12642 price increase.

Rivian is much less straightforward because they don’t do a traditional build where you select the packages you want, so finding comparable vehicles with just a larger battery pack is difficult.

Rivian R1T with standard range battery and dual motors costs between $70k and $76k for 258-270 miles range.
Rivian R1T with Large pack battery and dual motors costs between $78k and $82k.
Rivian R1T with Max pack battery and dual motors costs between $86k and $92k for 370 to 420

Comparing low-end: $70k (258 miles), $79k (329 miles), $86k (420 miles)
Standard to Large: A 13% ($9k) increase in cost gives a 28% increase in range: $321/1%
Large to Max: An 8% ($7k) increase in cost gives a 28% increase in range: $250/1%

Comparing high-end: $76k (270 miles), $82k (329 miles), $92 (420 miles):
Standard to Large: An 8% ($6k) increase in cost gives a 22% increase in range: $272/1%
Large to Max: A 12% ($10k) increase in cost gives a 28% increase in range: $357/1%.

If you’re looking at the Scout which is likely to have a stronger similarity to Rivian battery capability costs, you’re probably talking between $320-$357/1% range improvement.

That’s $13,800 to $15,400 increase in cost to bump the Scout BEV from 350 miles to 500 miles.

Any estimate of how much weight a 500 mile battery would add over the 350 mile battery? Would the ride start feeling like a rolling brick?

 

[Mirinjesse]

New sierras are approaching 500 mile range, $80-90k and weighing about 9K lbs due to the batteries, towing is 10-12k lbs as well

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

Any estimate of how much weight a 500 mile battery would add over the 350 mile battery? Would the ride start feeling like a rolling brick?

It’ll depend on the structure surrounding the battery, but the average specific gravity of an NMC battery, including structure, is about 200 Wh/kg. I don’t remember what has been said about the energy capacity of the battery, but for simplicity, assume it’ll be 175 kWh for the 350 mile battery (the Lightning has a 143 kWh (total; 131 useable) battery for 320 miles).

175 kWh / 0.2 kWh/kg = 875 kg = 1930 pounds.
Assuming a simple scaling from 350 to 500, you get an increase in 43% of capacity.
175 kWh * 1.43 / 0.2 kWh/kg = 1250 kg = 2760 pounds (143% of 1930 pounds).

You’d be adding about 800-850 pounds of battery. To maintain the towing capacity, Scout would probably also have to take a step up in rear axle GAWR. And it might also mean stronger wheels and heavier tires. And maybe beefier suspension. I would assume the total package weight would be more like the Silverado/Sierra EV at around 9k pounds. The Silverado/Sierra runs with a 214 kWh battery up to 246 kWh. It doesn’t get its range by being sleek.

The Lightning is just under 7k pounds.

I haven’t had a chance to test drive a Silverado EV, but the reviews i’ve read suggest it handles like a rolling brick, yes.

 

[dreamweaver]

It’ll depend on the structure surrounding the battery, but the average specific gravity of an NMC battery, including structure, is about 200 Wh/kg. I don’t remember what has been said about the energy capacity of the battery, but for simplicity, assume it’ll be 175 kWh for the 350 mile battery (the Lightning has a 143 kWh (total; 131 useable) battery for 320 miles).

175 kWh / 0.2 kWh/kg = 875 kg = 1930 pounds.
Assuming a simple scaling from 350 to 500, you get an increase in 43% of capacity.
175 kWh * 1.43 / 0.2 kWh/kg = 1250 kg = 2760 pounds (143% of 1930 pounds).

You’d be adding about 800-850 pounds of battery. To maintain the towing capacity, Scout would probably also have to take a step up in rear axle GAWR. And it might also mean stronger wheels and heavier tires. And maybe beefier suspension. I would assume the total package weight would be more like the Silverado/Sierra EV at around 9k pounds. The Silverado/Sierra runs with a 214 kWh battery up to 246 kWh. It doesn’t get its range by being sleek.

The Lightning is just under 7k pounds.

I haven’t had a chance to test drive a Silverado EV, but the reviews i’ve read suggest it handles like a rolling brick, yes.

Just what I was looking for. Thanks.

 

[J Alynn]

So that's an average of $97/mile of range 350-500.

Now can someone break down how many times you can charge to 80% at home before ever hitting that mark. Gotta be years worth of just no reason for crazy range and $$$ batteries

 

[dreamweaver]

Now can someone break down how many times you can charge to 80% at home before ever hitting that mark. Gotta be years worth of just no reason for crazy range and $$$ batteries

That was kinda the subtle point I was trying to make.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

At home, it costs me $0.035/kWh in winter and $0.05/kWh in summer.

At $0.05/kWh * 131 kWh = $6.55/full battery.

Let's say I drive really poorly and get 2 miles/kWh for 260 miles range.

$6.55/260 miles = $0.025/mile.

$95 would get me 3800 miles.

 

[Time2Roll]

At home, it costs me $0.035/kWh in winter and $0.05/kWh in summer.

Great price. My utility is 10x that.

 

[J Alynn]

Great price. My utility is 10x that.

Agreed. I think my wife said we are around .13-.14/ kWh including distribution fee.

 

[Mirinjesse]

Now can someone break down how many times you can charge to 80% at home before ever hitting that mark. Gotta be years worth of just no reason for crazy range and $$$ batteries

Playing devils advocate here. That 350-500 is almost halved when towing and then probably another 20-40% in winter conditions.

So, take the 350 range while towing, you are at 175 or so, then if this during winter, lucky to be getting 100-125.

That’s the reason why some people want more range / bigger batteries.

 

[J Alynn]

Playing devils advocate here. That 350-500 is almost halved when towing and then probably another 20-40% in winter conditions.

So, take the 350 range while towing, you are at 175 or so, then if this during winter, lucky to be getting 100-125.

That’s the reason why some people want more range / bigger batteries.

But to back track, people doing a lot of long hauling probably aren’t meant for a Scout in the first place considering most ICE’s that can tow don’t get anywhere near 500 miles and if they do a fill up is over $70. Just my opinion

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

Agreed. I think my wife said we are around .13-.14/ kWh including distribution fee.

I have to pay the connection fees, distribution fees, etc., just for having the house connected to the grid. I’ll shortly have enough solar such that I do not need to be on grid, but I’m required by the state to be connected and to pay all these fees (for all its talk, this state sure is big on requiring people to pay corporations for no good reason). I don’t count those fees in the cost of my Lightning/Mustang charging because I’d have to pay them anyway. That said, there is probably some tax and other junk fees that are based on the number of kWh that I draw, so the price might be up in the $0.07/kWh to $0.10/kWh or up to $10-$15 per fill-up. If I charge at the wrong time of day, I could pay >$200 for a single fill-up.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

Great price. My utility is 10x that.

If I was paying $0.35/kWh to $0.50/kWh, even after accounting for taxes and fees, I’d absolutely go solar. I’d probably go so far that I’d shut off the service entrance breaker and just deal with the utility coming out to complain. I run my business out of my home and use about 2000-3000 kWh a month. That high cost per kWh would bring my monthly bill to ~$700-$1500/month just for electricity. At that cost, a really nice solar system would pay for itself in about 3 years, not even counting the times when it was feeding back into the grid.

 

[Mirinjesse]

But to back track, people doing a lot of long hauling probably aren’t meant for a Scout in the first place considering most ICE’s that can tow don’t get anywhere near 500 miles and if they do a fill up is over $70. Just my opinion

I agree to an extent, people are looking at the market trying to make something work for them and in some cases it just won’t.

I do wish, the scouts would have a little extra buffer to account for the winter months as it’s pretty shocking to see how less efficient EVs become. I have an Ariya that sees 270-280 spring, summer and fall, this winter I was seeing 170-190, which is pretty drastic. It’s one of my biggest concerns having a harvester model on reserve as well; potentially seeing 70-80 miles of EV during the winter.

All in all, I’m mostly saying I can see where people’s desires for more range/bigger battery are coming from.

 

[J Alynn]

I agree to an extent, people are looking at the market trying to make something work for them and in some cases it just won’t.

I do wish, the scouts would have a little extra buffer to account for the winter months as it’s pretty shocking to see how less efficient EVs become. I have an Ariya that sees 270-280 spring, summer and fall, this winter I was seeing 170-190, which is pretty drastic. It’s one of my biggest concerns having a harvester model on reserve as well; potentially seeing 70-80 miles of EV during the winter.

All in all, I’m mostly saying I can see where people’s desires for more range/bigger battery are coming from.

I agree. I have a Honda Accord and I see about a 20% -25% loss over winter as well so I get it for sure

 

[dreamweaver]

I have to pay the connection fees, distribution fees, etc., just for having the house connected to the grid. I’ll shortly have enough solar such that I do not need to be on grid, but I’m required by the state to be connected and to pay all these fees (for all its talk, this state sure is big on requiring people to pay corporations for no good reason). I don’t count those fees in the cost of my Lightning/Mustang charging because I’d have to pay them anyway. That said, there is probably some tax and other junk fees that are based on the number of kWh that I draw, so the price might be up in the $0.07/kWh to $0.10/kWh or up to $10-$15 per fill-up. If I charge at the wrong time of day, I could pay >$200 for a single fill-up.

We have enough Solar capacity to run our entire home with excess that will eventually be used to charge our first full EV, the Scout Traveler. Like you we are required by the state to be connected to the grid. For the privilege of having the grid available as backup we have to pay $25 per-month to the the utility.

 

[THil08]

NJ is getting with the increase this month. #ThisStateNeedsChangeInPolitics

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

I agree to an extent, people are looking at the market trying to make something work for them and in some cases it just won’t.

I do wish, the scouts would have a little extra buffer to account for the winter months as it’s pretty shocking to see how less efficient EVs become. I have an Ariya that sees 270-280 spring, summer and fall, this winter I was seeing 170-190, which is pretty drastic. It’s one of my biggest concerns having a harvester model on reserve as well; potentially seeing 70-80 miles of EV during the winter.

All in all, I’m mostly saying I can see where people’s desires for more range/bigger battery are coming from.

And if people want to pay extra for that, that seems a reasonable option to me. Most EVs have at least two battery options, and I would honestly be surprised if Scout isn’t planning such an option to be available at release or shortly after release. But they should keep the 350 miles range battery (and I would say should also offer a 250 miles range option).

I paid the ~$10k more for the 320 miles of range in the Lightning because I knew very well my use-case after having driven a Mustang Mach-E for 40k miles. I wanted the 410 miles of range offered by the Rivian, but the $30k price premium over what I paid for the Lightning wasn’t worth the cost. I can cover a LOT of hotel nights (with free charging) on my travels for that amount of money.

I, for one, wouldn’t get a Harvester for a myriad of reasons. I would also struggle to justify a battery that could push a Lightning/Terra/Silverado 500 miles.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

We have enough Solar capacity to run our entire home with excess that will eventually be used to charge our first full EV, the Scout Traveler. Like you we are required by the state to be connected to the grid. For the privilege of having the grid available as backup we have to pay $25 per-month to the the utility.

There is a reason to require municipal residents to support the grid (same as for roads, etc), but it is annoying that we don’t get to charge for feeding back into the grid at the same rates that we pay.

 

[THil08]

God do I wish I owned a utility company. I would be mega rich, from jacking up prices, forcing people to pay while they have solar.