Flat Tow capability to beat Jeep

[Froggy5326]

If you search “top ten TOAD (towed flat behind RV) vehicles” the top seven are all Jeeps. Essentially, it’s the only vehicle that appears to be designed from the factory to be flat towed.

As a result, they have cornered the market and are essentially the only thing towed behind RV’s.

I don’t like Jeeps. It’s why I built a Scout many years ago. I modified a Mini Cooper Clubman to be my toad, but you have to be very specific as to which model, and the latest one available is a 2013.

I’m very interested in a Scout SUV, and all of the marketing adds up to it being capable of being an incredible toad. Most RV parks have 50A plugs, so charging is easy. Many RV’s have giant generators (mine is 8K) so could top it off in a pinch, and the obvious capability to have the vehicle regenerate while braking is a slam dunk.

A Scout, or any EV designed with “Flat tow mode” would be a first. There are so many wonderful possible ways to make it even better, but merely the ability to unlock the hubs/axles and do it I would call a 95% victory.

For bonus points:

1) Make it brake itself in tow mode. No need for supplemental braking system.

2) Make sure the lights integrate with a tow package so that you have brake lights and indicators and don’t need extra lighting.

3) Even more points if you can have some form of light regen under way, so that you could choose to make the tow a little harder, but recharge the battery in the Scout while you drive. Mileage will suffer on the tow vehicle, but it might be something I’d be happy to sacrifice to be topped off in the next stop.

4) Integrate hard points for a tow bar hookup. Might just work perfectly with the existing tow cleats, might be something more rugged and advanced.

5) It is possible that the Scout could even “carry its own weight” so to speak in mountainous terrain. Just enough assistance to only be a moderate drag on the RV, but would allow smaller RV’s to crest higher summits. I would have this speed-limit to something pretty low (55mph or so) but I could see it being a massive help to smaller RV owners.

Almost none of this has ever been done. Jeep dominates merely by being able to be flat towed, with zero further integration necessary.

RV’ers have money, and our selection of a toad is restricted completely to what is available.

Lastly, this is a fixed requirement for my interest in a Scout. I ordered a Bronco Raptor because it can be flat towed, but then didn’t like the truck much when it came out and have stuck with the Mini. I won’t get a Jeep, but I should.

Pic of my old Scout for attention.

 

[Froggy5326]

Seems like by this point the folks at Scout would know whether it will be possible to flat tow… the hardware has to have been settled at this phase of the development, and any further delay is just hoping to get us to buy one anyway.

I want a Scout, I have my deposit down for one, but the ability to flat tow it is an absolute requirement. If it isn’t going to be supported, I will be buying a Jeep instead and probably saving myself $70k.

So, what’s it going to be Scout? Heroes or Zeros?

 

[Froggy5326]

FWIW, I think, at least not all that long ago, a decent amount of Ford Trucks could be flat towed. The problem - they were too heavy for many vehicles to really flat tow them. So while I do hope that the Scout can be flat towed - I also recognize that an EV the size of the Scout is going to weigh enough that not many will be flat towed. My F250 might handle it - but towing one with a 1/2 ton (which will probably be lighter than the Scout) or an under powered RV, not going to be fun.

This will be a concern for some. Not all.

I am currently flat towing my Chevrolet 3500HD. The Scout will certainly weigh less than this thing.

The Scout will weigh far less than the trailer with a car in it I also currently tow.

 

[Mousehunter]

I have towed 8k lbs with a 1/2 ton and now with a 3/4 ton diesel - The 1/2 ton could do it, but you could feel the strain. The 3/4 ton forces me to actively remember that I am towing it is so effortless. Some of that might be the extra vehicle weight, but a lot is the 900ft/lbs of torque. That said, I remember feeling the start of trailer wagging with the 1/2 ton a few times - never had that happen with the 3/4 ton. Of course, some of that was I was renting the trailer with the 1/2 ton and did not have it balanced perfectly.

 

[SrfnFly227]

This will be a concern for some. Not all.

I am currently flat towing my Chevrolet 3500HD. The Scout will certainly weigh less than this thing.

The Scout will weigh far less than the trailer with a car in it I also currently tow.

You may be surprised. The internet says that your 3500HD weighs around 7000 pounds. That's roughly the same as the quad motor Rivian R1S which shows 7200 pounds. The Cadillac Escalade IQ is over 9000. The BMW iX5 is supposed to be about 6400.

The Scout, with a solid axle, 35 inch tires, steel bumpers and skid plates, etc isn't going to be light.

 

[J Alynn]

Seems like by this point the folks at Scout would know whether it will be possible to flat tow… the hardware has to have been settled at this phase of the development, and any further delay is just hoping to get us to buy one anyway.

I want a Scout, I have my deposit down for one, but the ability to flat tow it is an absolute requirement. If it isn’t going to be supported, I will be buying a Jeep instead and probably saving myself $70k.

So, what’s it going to be Scout? Heroes or Zeros?

Perhaps the lack of the answer is the answer. That said there’s been other conversations here on the forum that note how difficult it is to make an EV flat towable. Guess more time will tell.

 

[strider]

Seems like by this point the folks at Scout would know whether it will be possible to flat tow… the hardware has to have been settled at this phase of the development, and any further delay is just hoping to get us to buy one anyway.

I want a Scout, I have my deposit down for one, but the ability to flat tow it is an absolute requirement. If it isn’t going to be supported, I will be buying a Jeep instead and probably saving myself $70k.

So, what’s it going to be Scout? Heroes or Zeros?

Way to ramp up the drama. Zeros? Bottom line is that there are ZERO EVs that can be flat towed. I will go out on a limb and say that because of the motor layout it will not be possible to flat tow a Scout. There would need to be clutches in both axles to disconnect the motors from the wheels. Based on the early reading I did on the American Axle product they are using, it did not mention this as a feature. Obviously that could have changed between then and now and/or I could have mimssed it in my research. Also, those clutches would introduce a failure point for a feature that few people will use (although it is common-ish in EVs to have a clutch to disconnect one motor to save energy while cruising).

Finally, don't take my word for it - I'm just some rando on the internet, do not speak for Scout, etc, etc.

 

[BeerParty]

You may be surprised. The internet says that your 3500HD weighs around 7000 pounds. That's roughly the same as the quad motor Rivian R1S which shows 7200 pounds. The Cadillac Escalade IQ is over 9000. The BMW iX5 is supposed to be about 6400.

The Scout, with a solid axle, 35 inch tires, steel bumpers and skid plates, etc isn't going to be light.

Add in the ~130 kWh of batteries (or more, they are going to have to be big to meet that 350 mile range requirement) and the BEV Traveler is going to be heavy even in stock trim. The final weight of the Scout trucks will certainly be close to the Rivian R1S.

 

[Mousehunter]

At the end of the day, if it looked like it could be a profitable options, I have no doubt that Scout could do it. If they really, really wanted to, they could probably even make it self powered (I recall several RV companies that have worked on that). But it is a fairly small niche market.

 

[Froggy5326]

Perhaps the lack of the answer is the answer. That said there’s been other conversations here on the forum that note how difficult it is to make an EV flat towable. Guess more time will tell.

I’m not optimistic currently. If it were part of the road map they would know by now. If it was a development criteria I feel that they would have mentioned that it is.

The press makes the project look pretty far along with regard to component selection and capabilities.

Because it would be the only EV that is flat towable, we can be assured that there would be significant energy required to tailor to this requirement. It would be a reason for decisions… it won’t make itself flat towable.

Would have been awesome for them to put it into the development roadmap, but I fear that they haven’t, and won’t.

 

[Froggy5326]

Way to ramp up the drama. Zeros? Bottom line is that there are ZERO EVs that can be flat towed. I will go out on a limb and say that because of the motor layout it will not be possible to flat tow a Scout. There would need to be clutches in both axles to disconnect the motors from the wheels. Based on the early reading I did on the American Axle product they are using, it did not mention this as a feature. Obviously that could have changed between then and now and/or I could have mimssed it in my research. Also, those clutches would introduce a failure point for a feature that few people will use (although it is common-ish in EVs to have a clutch to disconnect one motor to save energy while cruising).

Finally, don't take my word for it - I'm just some rando on the internet, do not speak for Scout, etc, etc.

For sure… but if the option they have chosen will not allow flat towing, I think it is reasonable for them to say “yeah… won’t be able to do that…” and let us off the hook.

And yeah, zero. I’m not getting one if it can’t. That’s a zero. If it can, they are heroes.

The EV can’t be good enough for me to deal with the drama and drawbacks of it if I can’t flat tow it. Essentially all of the negatives and drawbacks turn into positives if I can use it as a toad. I can justify the purchase.

If it can’t… I stick with the Mini or my 3500, both paid for and both work well as toads.

 

[Froggy5326]

At the end of the day, if it looked like it could be a profitable options, I have no doubt that Scout could do it. If they really, really wanted to, they could probably even make it self powered (I recall several RV companies that have worked on that). But it is a fairly small niche market.

A niche market within a niche market.

But so is Jeep. Who would want one? It’s unrefined, gets poor mileage and is expensive. But, it’s a character driven purchase even though 90% of the Jeep owners won’t shift it into 4Low.

They are chasing this market though. Why would someone want a Scout when the Jeep, H3, Cybertruck and Rivian already exist?

The answer is probably the idea of the integrated Harvester, nostalgia and possibly value. But they are for sure pointing center mass at Jeeps with the off road capability. And the one thing that almost all Jeeps can do that very few other things can is be flat towed. This is a way to take away that exclusivity.

Additionally, it isn’t as hard as everyone suggests. Jeep, along with many other manufacturers have been using Warn locking hubs forever. It’s a simple mechanism that could easily be integrated into the last spot of the power train. Make all the hubs lock and unlock and the job is done. Doesn’t matter what you put behind them. If the hub isn’t locked, the rest doesn’t move.

Maybe the amount of torque that an electric motor makes would require more durability than a normal locking hub can manage… but I’m sure it can be done.

 

[Mousehunter]

Just a joke, before I post this, the Pebble (self powered trailer with regenerative braking), is the post above this one. I have little doubt that Scout could do it if they thought the market would reward them for the effort. But the flip side, I don't think Pebble (or Airstream, who has also mentioned working on a similar product) has sold any yet. Ok, google said less than 125 produced by Pebble to date and Lightship has delivered a dozen, but is currently expanding production capacity (eStream is still a one off concept trailer).

 

[Froggy5326]

Just a joke, before I post this, the Pebble (self powered trailer with regenerative braking), is the post above this one. I have little doubt that Scout could do it if they thought the market would reward them for the effort. But the flip side, I don't think Pebble (or Airstream, who has also mentioned working on a similar product) has sold any yet. Ok, google said less than 125 produced by Pebble to date and Lightship has delivered a dozen, but is currently expanding production capacity (eStream is still a one off concept trailer).

The challenge with those trailer solutions is obviously expense. The same trailer without the electric assist would probably cost $50-60k or so. I was about to buy a 38’ triple slide (the reason I own the 3500) for $90k but ended up buying an expensive RV instead.

The expense of the trailer above the $60k is the drivetrain, remedial as it might be. The Scout already has the drivetrain. It would add less expense likely than adding reverse. It’s just a software and limited sensor challenge. No additional money in the drivetrain.

The “double the price” problem with the Pebble is probably easier resolved by spending $50k on a used 3500 and getting any trailer you wanted to. The only reason I was going to buy a new trailer was because only the newest ones had a long enough garage space for my race car at the time. Now you can buy a 5 year old trailer that does it… but in 2019 there wasn’t a lot of choice for a 16’ garage.

 

[strider]

A niche market within a niche market.

But so is Jeep. Who would want one? It’s unrefined, gets poor mileage and is expensive. But, it’s a character driven purchase even though 90% of the Jeep owners won’t shift it into 4Low.

They are chasing this market though. Why would someone want a Scout when the Jeep, H3, Cybertruck and Rivian already exist?

The answer is probably the idea of the integrated Harvester, nostalgia and possibly value. But they are for sure pointing center mass at Jeeps with the off road capability. And the one thing that almost all Jeeps can do that very few other things can is be flat towed. This is a way to take away that exclusivity.

Additionally, it isn’t as hard as everyone suggests. Jeep, along with many other manufacturers have been using Warn locking hubs forever. It’s a simple mechanism that could easily be integrated into the last spot of the power train. Make all the hubs lock and unlock and the job is done. Doesn’t matter what you put behind them. If the hub isn’t locked, the rest doesn’t move.

Maybe the amount of torque that an electric motor makes would require more durability than a normal locking hub can manage… but I’m sure it can be done.

So, I could definitely be wrong as I haven't had a Jeep in 20 years, but I believe everyone has gone away from locking hubs as they are the weakest link in the chain (I HATED them on my '85 Nissan 4x4 - crapped out on me in New Mexico doing some VERY light offroading - stranded me for 2 days getting parts). So the hubs are always locked which means the axles are always turning. Since ICE vehicles have a single power source, they require a transfer case to send power to both axles. It is trivial to put this transfer case in neutral, thereby separating the axles from the engine. EVs aren't built like that. There is no transfer case. The front motor is attached directly to the front diff and the same for the rear. There would have to be clutches to disconnect the axles from the motor. These add cost, complexity, and weakness.

Now the idea of keeping the Scout powered up during towing so it could either help with towing and braking or just neutralize the magnetic field that is generated when spinning a permanent magnet motor is an interesting one. It is certainly something that could be done - it could know it's being towed if it's plugged into a 7-pin trailer connector. Definitely a fair amount of development work but it's possible.

I realize that we all want this first Scout to be everything that we want but the team has to get this first model out the door as quickly as possible with the best economics while appealing to the widest audience. There just aren't that many people flat towing that are also going to be willing to drop $60k on a new toad. IMO this is something for the next smaller model.