The One-Ton Problem with Scout’s Harvester Range Extender

[plyable]

Having lived with EVs for almost a decade and as someone who frequently goes camping with a long range EV (I'm a Scout leader and use an Ioniq 5 AWD) I can say with a fair degree of certainty that a Harvester is completely unnecessary. I use my EV's bidirectional charging regularly to run my astronomy gear out in the middle of nowhere all night, I've used it to power a campsite with my Cub pack for an entire weekend - mess tent lights and all, I've used it as a generator to run critical household appliances for an entire week-long city-wide blackout, all without ever running out of power.

In fact during the blackout while running several fridges, freezers, lights and wifi I calculated that I could go for at least 6 weeks at that time before the charge would be low enough for me to start thinking about hitting up a fast charger to recharge.

I have ordered the BEV version of the Traveller and fully intend to continue on with doing these things but in a larger, more capable vehicle than what I have now. Bidirectional power use doesn't consume as much energy as you might think and knowing the capability of my current ride and knowing that the Scout will effectively have double the capacity of my current ride I have no worries at all.

Even while boondocking, if running out of capacity were to become a concern I'd simply get a solar generator which are now very affordable and use that instead of the bidirectional charging. The only reason I don't currently own a solar generator is because with my current EV I've always had plenty of power and it's never been an issue.

At this point I see the Harvester as more of a liability than an asset.

Great comment from experience, thanks for sharing.

Any BEV should be able to run a campsite for weeks, as you said. Although, if you're running AC, that probably drops quite a bit.

I'm also thinking of the use case of towing an off-road camper deep into the wilderness. With a third or half the usual range, and assuming the last bit of civilization where you could fully charge was many miles before departing pavement, it wouldn't take much to start having range problems. Civilization > pavement > FS / BLM roads > camping for multiple days > back to FS roads > back to pavement > back to civilization. That could easily exceed the ~150 miles of range you'd be working with.

 

[Cranky Canuck]

Great comment from experience, thanks for sharing.

Any BEV should be able to run a campsite for weeks, as you said. Although, if you're running AC, that probably drops quite a bit.

I'm also thinking of the use case of towing an off-road camper deep into the wilderness. With a third or half the usual range, and assuming the last bit of civilization where you could fully charge was many miles before departing pavement, it wouldn't take much to start having range problems. Civilization > pavement > FS / BLM roads > camping for multiple days > back to FS roads > back to pavement > back to civilization. That could easily exceed the ~150 miles of range you'd be working with.

Actually AC doesn't consume all that much either. Again, something I was surprised to learn initially. AC uses a few hundred Watts (similar to what the fridge was drawing) and like a fridge the compressor doesn't tend to run constantly so they tend to be quite economical and don't really hit your range all that much.

As for the off-road camper thing, generally the slower you go in an EV the more efficient and therefore more range you have. I would assume that towing an off-road camper would mean fairly low speeds once you leave the paved surfaces so assuming you charge up at your last vestige of civilisation and go from there with a full or nearly full charge you would likely do fairly well out in the wilderness since you won't be bombing around at highway speed.

EVs are kind of the opposite to combustion vehicles in that respect. Most people are used to getting better milage out on the highway than around town because combustion cars are like that. You even burn fuel (ie lose range) while you're sitting in traffic and not moving. An EV isn't like that. The majority of your energy is used to move the vehicle, and the higher the speed the more drag there is so the more energy you consume (drag is also an exponential function so after a certain point every extra unit of speed increase drag exponentially more). Sitting around not moving in traffic uses almost no energy at all. If you want to hypermile an EV you just need to drive around at like 5 km/h. There have been "test" where people will take a short range EV like a LEAF and drive it something like 1000 km on a charge just because they went super slowly.

All that to say honestly, if I were you I wouldn't be so quick to discount the BEV version - especially since very few specs are actually nailed down for either powertrain. From my own experience I suspect the BEV version might actually do everything you want it to, especially if you do a little bit of planning before hand to make sure you'll be good. There are several people with Rivians on this forum which is a much similar vehicle to the Scout than my Ioniq 5 is, they can also shed some light on what you can realistically expect in an EV off road situation like you describe.

 

[BartMan Terra Total EV]

Those are some big assumptions. If I want to tow something that is >5k lbs but <7k lbs, I need at least 7k lbs of towing capacity. Many, many travel trailers and boats fall in this range. If I needed to tow a 30+ foot trailer pushing 5 tons, I will buy a big diesel pickup, tyvm.

Huge apologies as I think I got you confused with someone who posted about a 30 foot trailer. Plz forgive me.

 

[BeerParty]

Yeah I was about as shocked as you are when I did the math. I even checked it a few times to be sure. It turns out fridges and freezers don't consume all the much energy, a couple hundred Watts when running and then nothing for most of the day, and the LED lights we setup didn't even register as a draw on the car, neither did the wifi so those things combined were less than 100 Watts.

With 77,000 Watt hours of capacity at a full charge I could have gone way longer but when the storm hit I had something like 64% charge in the car. During the course of that week running all that stuff I consumed about 10% of the car's charge and I knew that to get to the fast charger I only needed less than 2% of the charge (it's only a few kms away, downhill from me and it still had power so I could have gone to charge any time). So yeah, keeping 4% as a "buffer" to get to the charger and consuming about 10% per week that gave me about 6 weeks worth of energy if I needed it.

One minor (totally unnecessary except for my OCD) correction to your plan, Cranky: You can't use the V2L (Vehicle to Load) below 20% state of charge. The Hyundai setup for V2L (see the manual here) explains how to set the minimum battery level for power delivery, and the lowest you can set it to is 20%.

I only point this out because there are some people on the net that like to say things like "if you use V2L and run the battery all the way down, then you are stuck." If I am feeling charitable I'll simply correct them. If I'm not, well, there are lots of ways to make someone like that look foolish. So I want other folks using the V2L to be aware of this minimum when discussing it, so they don't feed the haters.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

One minor (totally unnecessary except for my OCD) correction to your plan, Cranky: You can't use the V2L (Vehicle to Load) below 20% state of charge. The Hyundai setup for V2L (see the manual here) explains how to set the minimum battery level for power delivery, and the lowest you can set it to is 20%.

I only point this out because there are some people on the net that like to say things like "if you use V2L and run the battery all the way down, then you are stuck." If I am feeling charitable I'll simply correct them. If I'm not, well, there are lots of ways to make someone like that look foolish. So I want other folks using the V2L to be aware of this minimum when discussing it, so they don't feed the haters.

That minimum doesn't apply across the board. I can run the Lightning down to as low as 10 miles estimated range.

 

[Cranky Canuck]

One minor (totally unnecessary except for my OCD) correction to your plan, Cranky: You can't use the V2L (Vehicle to Load) below 20% state of charge. The Hyundai setup for V2L (see the manual here) explains how to set the minimum battery level for power delivery, and the lowest you can set it to is 20%.

I only point this out because there are some people on the net that like to say things like "if you use V2L and run the battery all the way down, then you are stuck." If I am feeling charitable I'll simply correct them. If I'm not, well, there are lots of ways to make someone like that look foolish. So I want other folks using the V2L to be aware of this minimum when discussing it, so they don't feed the haters.

Yep, that's fair and I honestly couldn't remember if the bottom threshold was 20% or 10% but 20% makes sense. Either way it would still have given me weeks of running stuff before I'd have to go recharge and I never even got close to those levels in real life.

 

[Cranky Canuck]

That minimum doesn't apply across the board. I can run the Lightning down to as low as 10 miles estimated range.

Yeah, it's a Hyundai thing for my particular car. @BeerParty is correct that I would have been limited to 20%, at which point the V2L would have cut me off but yeah, my point still stands.

 

[J Alynn]

Those are some big assumptions. If I want to tow something that is >5k lbs but <7k lbs, I need at least 7k lbs of towing capacity. Many, many travel trailers and boats fall in this range. If I needed to tow a 30+ foot trailer pushing 5 tons, I will buy a big diesel pickup, tyvm.

These vehicles can’t be everything to everybody. And that has been implied as well. There seems to be a lot of folks who love the Scouts but just aren’t the right vehicle for them. I’ve said before-I’d like a Porsche 718 but it doesn’t fit my needs so until it does I’ve shelved it. Maybe somebody with an advanced physics degree can chime in to suggest how to solve this that’s great. Otherwise we wait and understand that SM need to optimize sales and if a reduced tow rating is part of that-so it goes. I’m going full BEV because I’ve compromised and overcome some of my initial objections. If 7K towing is your ideal then what is proposed to be sacrificed. If you reduce the 150 battery range you upset one group. If you reduce engine and drop to 425 mile range you upset another. Until final specs are fully vetted people need to set expectations and willingness to compromise a bit OR they need to find a different vehicle and move on. Or everyone wanting EREV agrees with a $90K price tag and everyone gets what they want-assuming they can afford it

 

[Moates442]

Scout Motors almost has the winning formula for bringing a truck/SUV to market that solves all the big EV truck objections. With the Harvester gas range extender motor, owners can still do the towing and long distance road trips that the family car demands without a second thought, while still operating a full BEV for the other 95% of driving. At the campsite, tailgate, or worksite, the truck is both a battery bank and a true generator, meaning one could rely on it for boondocking with zero concern for the state of charge. It’s the perfect small- to medium-travel trailer hauler. But there’s one big problem.

The quoted towing capacities of 7,000 and 10,000 are respectable, even impressive figures for the Traveler and Terra. That puts Traveler drivers in a 20-25 foot travel trailer or lets them haul a boat that size down to the beach. For the Terra, one can comfortably haul a 30 foot trailer big enough for the whole family. We all know what happens to EV range when towing (thanks Hoovie), so the addition of a gas range extender is the only thing that can make long-distance towing practical given current battery tech. The Harvester option is the obvious choice for anyone who plans to tow…

…except that it isn’t. A couple months ago, Scott Keogh appeared on Jay Leno’s Garage. During the half-hour interview and demo of the prototype Scouts, Keogh revealed that the publicized towing figures were for the battery models only. Terra and Traveler models equipped with the Harvester - the ones that would actually make decent tow vehicles - are limited to 5,000 pounds each.

5,000 pounds! That’s a figure for a compact truck or a Korean crossover, not the hauling pedigree of a full-size body-on-frame machine. 5k is enough for an 16’ ultralight travel trailer - the kind you see being hauled by Subarus. Notably, 5,000 pounds is a full ton less than the 7k figure for the full EV Traveler and a staggering 2.5 tons less than the Harvester-less Terra.

This bombshell from Keogh went largely unnoticed and unreported in the automotive community, although it generated some passionate discussion in the Scout Forums and Facebook groups. Most of us are simply confused. How does 500 pounds of four-banger and fuel (despite also removing hundreds of pounds of extra battery) reduce the towing capacity by half, in the case of the Terra? Is it a power problem? Payload? The proposed design places the motor behind the rear axle to reduce NVH. If placement is the problem, I’m sure most owners would take the tradeoff of a little engine drone to maintain the towing capability.

With the Harvester gas range extender, Scout is poised to build the best All-American, all-purpose EV trucks yet; The only ones, so far, that actually fit the lifestyle so many rugged truck and SUV buyers aspire to. Here’s hoping Scout doesn’t squander that opportunity with a design flaw that defeats a primary purpose of this unique architecture for many would-be buyers.

-plyable

I agree.

Many are responding with "If you plan to tow something that big, get a different truck." But we are talking towing 5,000 lbs!! I often tow trailers in the 4-8k lb. range. I often use a U-Haul car hauler, which probably weights 1500 lbs. Then add a car on it, say my Olds 442, and that is probably over 5,000 total weight. I don't think that is very good tow rating for something of a truck like this. I personally see this as a deal killer for me. And I know many will say, just by the BEV version. The remote places I go and tow with, are not set up for this yet. Once they have pull through charging stations, and charging stations in very remote areas, then I will jump in.

For now, I will wait until more information is released to see what the final number is.

 

[BartMan Terra Total EV]

I agree.

Many are responding with "If you plan to tow something that big, get a different truck." But we are talking towing 5,000 lbs!! I often tow trailers in the 4-8k lb. range. I often use a U-Haul car hauler, which probably weights 1500 lbs. Then add a car on it, say my Olds 442, and that is probably over 5,000 total weight. I don't think that is very good tow rating for something of a truck like this. I personally see this as a deal killer for me. And I know many will say, just by the BEV version. The remote places I go and tow with, are not set up for this yet. Once they have pull through charging stations, and charging stations in very remote areas, then I will jump in.

For now, I will wait until more information is released to see what the final number is.

My prediction based on no scientific knowledge what so ever is SM will get up to 7,000 pound towing capacity on the Terra Harvester model.

 

[cyure]

My prediction based on no scientific knowledge what so ever is SM will get up to 7,000 pound towing capacity on the Terra Harvester model.

We just have to have faith. SM can’t be all things to all people but just the fact they have this platform for us sure seems like they are damn well going to try.