The One-Ton Problem with Scout’s Harvester Range Extender

[Chavannigans]

You nailed it. Comes down to the correct balance until new batteries come out like SS that will last in real world then skies the limit. And SM is tied to a large car manufacturer, not a battery manufacturer so unlike China they can’t sink all their R&D into battery tech but they can help fund other battery manufacturers

VW has been dumping money into some of that tech through Quantumscape, but it does make me wonder that even if they did have the scalable tech today…. would they even make it available for all of their brands, or would they reserve it for their their premium brands like Audi, Porsche, Lamborghini, etc?

I could see it being an “exclusive” option for a few years.

 

[dreamweaver]

VW has been dumping money into some of that tech through Quantumscape, but it does make me wonder that even if they did have the scalable tech today…. would they even make it available for all of their brands, or would they reserve it for their their premium brands like Audi, Porsche, Lamborghini, etc?

I could see it being an “exclusive” option for a few years.

I think that would be rather shortsighted. Let's hope they don't do that.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

It'll be exclusive because the R&D will need to be paid for, production will need to be ramped up, and demand will be high. SSB prices will be high for a few years, at least.

 

[dreamweaver]

It'll be exclusive because the R&D will need to be paid for, production will need to be ramped up, and demand will be high. SSB prices will be high for a few years, at least.

While all that is certainly true. I just hope they don’t place all their eggs in the low mileage exotics basket. They need to get these battery improvements to the masses.

 

[J Alynn]

VW has been dumping money into some of that tech through Quantumscape, but it does make me wonder that even if they did have the scalable tech today…. would they even make it available for all of their brands, or would they reserve it for their their premium brands like Audi, Porsche, Lamborghini, etc?

I could see it being an “exclusive” option for a few years.

Hadn’t thought about it that way before. Would Scout make the cut?

 

[J Alynn]

It'll be exclusive because the R&D will need to be paid for, production will need to be ramped up, and demand will be high. SSB prices will be high for a few years, at least.

And there in lies the next hurdle. How much will average buyer agree to pay for the convenience of stopping one maybe two less times on a long road trip. I’m frugal so I’d just plan on stopping times. $2K maybe $3 I’d spend for that privilege but we just don’t do a ton of long distance driving trips so I’m certainly not the demographic for SSB tech

 

[dreamweaver]

And there in lies the next hurdle. How much will average buyer agree to pay for the convenience of stopping one maybe two less times on a long road trip. I’m frugal so I’d just plan on stopping times. $2K maybe $3 I’d spend for that privilege but we just don’t do a ton of long distance driving trips so I’m certainly not the demographic for SSB tech

I think the current stated 350 miles of range on the new Scout EVs is the sweet spot. Unless you drive with a pilots pal.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

And there in lies the next hurdle. How much will average buyer agree to pay for the convenience of stopping one maybe two less times on a long road trip. I’m frugal so I’d just plan on stopping times. $2K maybe $3 I’d spend for that privilege but we just don’t do a ton of long distance driving trips so I’m certainly not the demographic for SSB tech

I haven’t look up the statistics of standard vs long vs max range take rates. There’s a well-known, long-standing phenomenon where auto buyers will demand various features and then won’t buy them. My guess is that the middle range battery is most popular, but I don’t have data to support that guess.

For the Lightning, there seems to be about $5k-$6k difference when stepping from the 98 kWh (NMC), to the 123 kWh (LFP), and again to the 131 kWh (NMC) battery. It’s difficult to say with certainty because of the trim features, etc.

My extended range option was $10k more than the standard range option just over a year ago.

The Rivians have about a $7k increase in cost from Standard to Large to Max. Again, the comparison isn’t directly possible because of trim features, etc.

My guess is that an SSB with the same range as an NMC will likely add between $5k to $10k to the cost at least in the first few years. There’s a myth that SSBs will be cheaper. But… We’ll see.

 

[mastertroll]

I think the current stated 350 miles of range on the new Scout EVs is the sweet spot. Unless you drive with a pilots pal.

I think it's important to factor in a 30%+ reduction in real-world range when quoting these figures—and even more when towing. If we want true autonomy and aren’t sticking strictly to highway driving, that reduction matters. Take the Tesla Model Y, for example. It’s advertised at over 300 miles of range, but in reality—at least with the 2021 model—it barely hits 200. In the same drive test, my Lightning ER consistently pulls off at least 250 miles, despite its advertised range of 325. So when Scout claims 350 miles, I hope they really mean it.


As for a 200 kWh battery: yes, it’s dense, and I’d imagine it’s being considered in lieu of the Harvester model. Given that the Terra is roughly the same size as the Lightning, it’s not unrealistic to think it could be done.

 

[Chavannigans]

I think it's important to factor in a 30%+ reduction in real-world range when quoting these figures—and even more when towing. If we want true autonomy and aren’t sticking strictly to highway driving, that reduction matters. Take the Tesla Model Y, for example. It’s advertised at over 300 miles of range, but in reality—at least with the 2021 model—it barely hits 200. In the same drive test, my Lightning ER consistently pulls off at least 250 miles, despite its advertised range of 325. So when Scout claims 350 miles, I hope they really mean it.


As for a 200 kWh battery: yes, it’s dense, and I’d imagine it’s being considered in lieu of the Harvester model. Given that the Terra is roughly the same size as the Lightning, it’s not unrealistic to think it could be done.

I just don’t feel that would align with Scouts offroad focused design.

And I certainly don’t see it replacing Harvester, since it’s entire point is to alleviate stress about going full EV and bridging the gap for people that aren’t ready yet.

 

[mastertroll]

I just don’t feel that would align with Scouts offroad focused design.

And I certainly don’t see it replacing Harvester, since it’s entire point is to alleviate stress about going full EV and bridging the gap for people that aren’t ready yet.

Not exactly to replace. They are already offering an EV only model. I think it's only proper to have an extended range EV on the model as well.

 

[Mousehunter]

It is easy enough to do quick math to see the problem. Towing takes a LOT of power. If we give the Traveler an optimistic 2.5 miles / kw - then it would need a 140kwh battery to do its published 350 mile range. Now virtually all EV trucks reviews I have seen have 100 mile ranges or less when towing 10k lbs (given an average battery size of 140kwh - .7 miles per kw.

Now lets change that to kw per hour at 70mph. Without a load - 28kw/h. With a load 100kw/h. The smaller battery on an erev will not last too long towing. Unless you put in the larger generator (4x as large), and keep a decent margin of battery for boost - it is not going to tow 10k lbs very far. Efficiency for the masses when not towing should target the smaller generator. Efficiency with the larger generator w/o a load would require cycling the battery - and still would be less efficient.
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FWIW, I thought I read where the EV Ram has been either cancelled or put on hold. That does not support the EREV Ram that well - now it is a stand alone platform, rather than a partially shared one.

 

[Chavannigans]

Not exactly to replace. They are already offering an EV only model. I think it's only proper to have an extended range EV on the model as well.

They just need to offer a long wheelbase Travelall and Travelette with beefed up parts and more space for batteries for the towing and long haul focused folks.

 

[mastertroll]

They just need to offer a long wheelbase Travelall and Travelette with beefed up parts and more space for batteries for the towing and long haul focused folks.

Comparable to the Silverado EV or Sierra EV with 200kw

 

[J Alynn]

It is easy enough to do quick math to see the problem. Towing takes a LOT of power. If we give the Traveler an optimistic 2.5 miles / kw - then it would need a 140kwh battery to do its published 350 mile range. Now virtually all EV trucks reviews I have seen have 100 mile ranges or less when towing 10k lbs (given an average battery size of 140kwh - .7 miles per kw.

Now lets change that to kw per hour at 70mph. Without a load - 28kw/h. With a load 100kw/h. The smaller battery on an erev will not last too long towing. Unless you put in the larger generator (4x as large), and keep a decent margin of battery for boost - it is not going to tow 10k lbs very far. Efficiency for the masses when not towing should target the smaller generator. Efficiency with the larger generator w/o a load would require cycling the battery - and still would be less efficient.
---
FWIW, I thought I read where the EV Ram has been either cancelled or put on hold. That does not support the EREV Ram that well - now it is a stand alone platform, rather than a partially shared one.

The big picture everyone forgets is SM never started this venture with an EREV. It is a bandaid approach to keep buyers who absolutely won’t give BEV a chance. The EREV is a result (and a good decision) of keeping Scout fans happy but the EREV can only be so much to so many. Had the entire venture been based on EREV’s perhaps it would be more ideal but this effort is based on making it fit to a design that was already planned for only EV. It was a decision based on preliminary market response and I’m not knocking it-a small company that can pivot like that is amazing. But if RAM is struggling /killing theirs it can’t be easy so kudos to the SM team for making the most of a situation thrown at them by the Scout enthusiasts community

 

[calum]

Well. I skimmed all 5 pages (as of this point). A lot has been said (especially it won't be a truck for everyone).

Everyone's use case is going to be different. Fortunately I am buying a truck for me, not for everyone (sorry gals and guys... can't swing more than one).

So... if Scout care what (hopefully will) move me... here it is.

Anything less than 10k lbs, I cannot use. I know that EV towing will suck more power, and I am prepared to take driving breaks. Don't like towing that long without one anyway - 2 hours driving is about my limit before I need a coffee break. The "harvester" option allows me to not have to search for a charging spot or decide not to use said found charging spot because a) its full or b) I don't want to unhook my trailer or c) any other reason I can think of.

If the harvester option means that I can't tow my trailer (+ headroom + I don't want to max out towing wait...) then I will simply have to be very sad and pass it up.

So my current (personal, there may be others that I don't want to choose) are:
1) F150 Ligtning. Very short range towing .... maybe even less than 100 miles. Too short. Not an option.
2) Silverado thingy. Very heavy vehicle, better range towing.... but bigger battery long charge. Doesn't review as well as F150 (except for range and towing of course).
3). R1T. I have read some people's account towing with this and it seems fine. Short range, I think in-between 1) and 2).

That's it. Is there another truck? Apart from one that looks like it was drawn by a 6-year old and is shaped like a door wedge. Yuck (sorry if you own one.... but its not my idea of a truck).

I'm not a physicist but I don't know why removing some battery and replacing it with a small gas engine and 40lbs of fuel/tank means the towing capacity is cut in half.

To me there are few things a truck must do to be called a truck.
1) haul stuff
2) pull stuff

Nothing else matters. Not leather seats. Not infotainment. Not fancy dash-boards. Haul and Pull. For the pretty stuff I buy something else (see line 2).

I am willing to wait for this but .... if its just not going to cut the mustard, I would appreciate being told sooner rather than hanging on. It will make me feel better if my needs change in the future, otherwise.... not so much.

Thanks for listening Scout Motors!

Regards
Calum

 

[cyure]

Well. I skimmed all 5 pages (as of this point). A lot has been said (especially it won't be a truck for everyone).

Everyone's use case is going to be different. Fortunately I am buying a truck for me, not for everyone (sorry gals and guys... can't swing more than one).

So... if Scout care what (hopefully will) move me... here it is.

Anything less than 10k lbs, I cannot use. I know that EV towing will suck more power, and I am prepared to take driving breaks. Don't like towing that long without one anyway - 2 hours driving is about my limit before I need a coffee break. The "harvester" option allows me to not have to search for a charging spot or decide not to use said found charging spot because a) its full or b) I don't want to unhook my trailer or c) any other reason I can think of.

If the harvester option means that I can't tow my trailer (+ headroom + I don't want to max out towing wait...) then I will simply have to be very sad and pass it up.

So my current (personal, there may be others that I don't want to choose) are:
1) F150 Ligtning. Very short range towing .... maybe even less than 100 miles. Too short. Not an option.
2) Silverado thingy. Very heavy vehicle, better range towing.... but bigger battery long charge. Doesn't review as well as F150 (except for range and towing of course).
3). R1T. I have read some people's account towing with this and it seems fine. Short range, I think in-between 1) and 2).

That's it. Is there another truck? Apart from one that looks like it was drawn by a 6-year old and is shaped like a door wedge. Yuck (sorry if you own one.... but its not my idea of a truck).

I'm not a physicist but I don't know why removing some battery and replacing it with a small gas engine and 40lbs of fuel/tank means the towing capacity is cut in half.

To me there are few things a truck must do to be called a truck.
1) haul stuff
2) pull stuff

Nothing else matters. Not leather seats. Not infotainment. Not fancy dash-boards. Haul and Pull. For the pretty stuff I buy something else (see line 2).

I am willing to wait for this but .... if its just not going to cut the mustard, I would appreciate being told sooner rather than hanging on. It will make me feel better if my needs change in the future, otherwise.... not so much.

Thanks for listening Scout Motors!

Regards
Calum

Welcome to the community.

 

[J Alynn]

Well. I skimmed all 5 pages (as of this point). A lot has been said (especially it won't be a truck for everyone).

Everyone's use case is going to be different. Fortunately I am buying a truck for me, not for everyone (sorry gals and guys... can't swing more than one).

So... if Scout care what (hopefully will) move me... here it is.

Anything less than 10k lbs, I cannot use. I know that EV towing will suck more power, and I am prepared to take driving breaks. Don't like towing that long without one anyway - 2 hours driving is about my limit before I need a coffee break. The "harvester" option allows me to not have to search for a charging spot or decide not to use said found charging spot because a) its full or b) I don't want to unhook my trailer or c) any other reason I can think of.

If the harvester option means that I can't tow my trailer (+ headroom + I don't want to max out towing wait...) then I will simply have to be very sad and pass it up.

So my current (personal, there may be others that I don't want to choose) are:
1) F150 Ligtning. Very short range towing .... maybe even less than 100 miles. Too short. Not an option.
2) Silverado thingy. Very heavy vehicle, better range towing.... but bigger battery long charge. Doesn't review as well as F150 (except for range and towing of course).
3). R1T. I have read some people's account towing with this and it seems fine. Short range, I think in-between 1) and 2).

That's it. Is there another truck? Apart from one that looks like it was drawn by a 6-year old and is shaped like a door wedge. Yuck (sorry if you own one.... but its not my idea of a truck).

I'm not a physicist but I don't know why removing some battery and replacing it with a small gas engine and 40lbs of fuel/tank means the towing capacity is cut in half.

To me there are few things a truck must do to be called a truck.
1) haul stuff
2) pull stuff

Nothing else matters. Not leather seats. Not infotainment. Not fancy dash-boards. Haul and Pull. For the pretty stuff I buy something else (see line 2).

I am willing to wait for this but .... if its just not going to cut the mustard, I would appreciate being told sooner rather than hanging on. It will make me feel better if my needs change in the future, otherwise.... not so much.

Thanks for listening Scout Motors!

Regards
Calum

Thanks for posting

 

[dreamweaver]

Well. I skimmed all 5 pages (as of this point). A lot has been said (especially it won't be a truck for everyone).

Everyone's use case is going to be different. Fortunately I am buying a truck for me, not for everyone (sorry gals and guys... can't swing more than one).

So... if Scout care what (hopefully will) move me... here it is.

Anything less than 10k lbs, I cannot use. I know that EV towing will suck more power, and I am prepared to take driving breaks. Don't like towing that long without one anyway - 2 hours driving is about my limit before I need a coffee break. The "harvester" option allows me to not have to search for a charging spot or decide not to use said found charging spot because a) its full or b) I don't want to unhook my trailer or c) any other reason I can think of.

If the harvester option means that I can't tow my trailer (+ headroom + I don't want to max out towing wait...) then I will simply have to be very sad and pass it up.

So my current (personal, there may be others that I don't want to choose) are:
1) F150 Ligtning. Very short range towing .... maybe even less than 100 miles. Too short. Not an option.
2) Silverado thingy. Very heavy vehicle, better range towing.... but bigger battery long charge. Doesn't review as well as F150 (except for range and towing of course).
3). R1T. I have read some people's account towing with this and it seems fine. Short range, I think in-between 1) and 2).

That's it. Is there another truck? Apart from one that looks like it was drawn by a 6-year old and is shaped like a door wedge. Yuck (sorry if you own one.... but its not my idea of a truck).

I'm not a physicist but I don't know why removing some battery and replacing it with a small gas engine and 40lbs of fuel/tank means the towing capacity is cut in half.

To me there are few things a truck must do to be called a truck.
1) haul stuff
2) pull stuff

Nothing else matters. Not leather seats. Not infotainment. Not fancy dash-boards. Haul and Pull. For the pretty stuff I buy something else (see line 2).

I am willing to wait for this but .... if its just not going to cut the mustard, I would appreciate being told sooner rather than hanging on. It will make me feel better if my needs change in the future, otherwise.... not so much.

Thanks for listening Scout Motors!

Regards
Calum

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